Car sold, buyer now saying car is a LEMON!!

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Hello I'm New here! Joined: 20 Jun 2011 Posts: 11

Not sure if this is a scam but your advice would be appreciated.

A work collegue of mine was advertising his car on ebay when he got a message through ebay messaging from an interested buyer. this was friday 3 weeks ago, the buyer wanted to know if a deal could be done over that weekend. my friend messaged back and agreed to sell for the reserve amount on ebay. Saturday the buyer called to say he was making arrangements to travel by train to collect the car. he was to arrive late afternoon early evening. my collegue asked me to go with him to the station to collect the buyer.

when the buyer arrived my friend asked him to drive the car, strangely he declined and got into the passenger seat. my college drove back to his house. he again offered a test drive. the buyer said he was OK with what e had seen and we went indoors to do the paperwork. we filled in the V5 and my collegue had a bill of sale, it basically said that both parties agreed to the sale with the car in it's current condition. both my collegue and the buyer signed and each had a copy.

the car had Part main dealer service history and part private garage service history but all services had been done and seervice book stamped there was receipts in the service book for the full 8½ years of it life for all parts fitted from new.

the buyer paid in full and drove off in the car seemingly happy.
9 days later he messaged back through ebay saying the car was a Lemon... he says the Timing belt was shot at and the gearbox was knackered.. he suggested he was coming back with the car.

the following day another message stating he had spent £225 on timing belt and pulleys and the garage was looking for a second hand gearbox

2 days later he messages again saying the total cost of repairs is now £575 and wants some contribution to these costs from my collegue. stating he had heard noises from the gearbox on the drive back from the station to my collegues house. i was in the car and heard no noises as he described as Droning when turning corners??. surely if in fact he had hear noises this would be the time to mention the fact??.

my collegue pointed out that from the service history, the timing belt had been replaced 24,000 miles ago and on the particular car change intervals was 80,000 miles so another change was not due for roughly 56,000 miles and to the best of his knowledge there was no problem with the gearbox.

the messages kept coming stating he had seen the damaged timing belt and gearbox himself and he was wanting some contribution to the repairs. my collegue contacted the garage which had done the timing belt to confirm the mileage of the car when the belt was changed the dates and mileage was correct in the service history.

each message got a little stronger and started to threaten legal action as his wife was a solicitor, seemed very coincidental??.

my collegue started to ignor his messages, they kept coming daily up to today. and the latest message is saying his wife has drawn up papers and is pursuing through the small claims court.

does my collegue need to be worried about anything here, personally i am of the opinion that it is down to the buyer to check out the car and be satisfied BEFORE parting with any money?? any advice would be appreciated

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21155

I am not a lawyer and this seems to be outside of the US so the laws might differ from what we have so take this lightly and check everything with your local laws.

In the US any used car is sold "AS IS". If the buyer is foolish enough to not take a test drive or even take it to a mechanic to look over before the sale it is not the owners fault. Unless the vehicle, or item, was misrepresented somehow.

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:51 am

I am not a legal professional but it sounds from here like your colleague is in good shape and should stand his ground.

The time to have a car inspected, take test drives etc, is before the purchase and not after it. The buyer cut these corners and is paying for it now (whether or not your colleague was aware of the problems - I hope not but one never knows). Having a signed agreement ("purchased in current condition"), service history and so on, all seem to put him in good shape if it does go to court.

A friend of mine was on the buying side of a transaction almost exactly like this 2 years ago (only without ebay): didn't have a car checked out properly before buying it from an independent seller, it quickly developed a problem (or had it all along). He took the seller to (UK) small claims court and lost - seller had full service history, signed agreement it was being purchased as is. Again who knows whether the car really did have the problem at time of sale or not - there was no indication that the seller tried to conceal the problem or deceive the buyer. So buyer out of luck.

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:21 am

It's a private sale, so it is up to the buyer to make sure that the car is sound before parting with his cash PROVIDED your friend hasn't misrepresented the car.

Just tell your collegue to ignore the buyer - the only option he has is to take him to court for a refund and a judge is likely to side with your collegue.

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:22 am

motorway wrote:

we filled in the V5 and my collegue had a bill of sale, it basically said that both parties agreed to the sale with the car in it's current condition. both my collegue and the buyer signed and each had a copy.

Again, I'm no lawyer but I'd guess you are covered under caveat emptor if he signed a document agreeing to purchase the vehicle as is.

Your friend can argue, that had the buyer given him time to rectify any faults before spending the money he would have considered taking the vehicle back, or making a reasonable contribution to any repairs that came up in a given period, post sale.

Quite a few solicitors give free half hour consultations on matters like this. Tell your friend to ask around for advice. Or ask on one of the online legal advice forums.

Personally, I'd let him sue and enjoy taking him apart in front of a magistrate. Wink

Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:36 am

And. Tell your friend to keep the text messages as well to give a timeline of events.

Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:28 pm

Private sale, sold as seen, strictly no returns. Plus the buyer opted to circumvent any protection EBay would have offered him. He signed to accept the car as it was, with all faults seen and unseen, so the seller is quite within his rights to tell him to go and do one. The buyer hasn't got a leg to stand on even if the complaints were justifiable - having replaced the timing belt there is no proof that the old one was in poor shape.
Even if he had bought the car as seen from an auction or dealer the situation would be the same.
Keep all the messages; I doubt this will go to court though.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21155

I think the guy is suffering from "Buyers Remorse" and at least trying to con some of the money back from your friend.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 20 Jun 2011 Posts: 11

Nailgunner wrote:

Private sale, sold as seen, strictly no returns. Plus the buyer opted to circumvent any protection EBay would have offered him. He signed to accept the car as it was, with all faults seen and unseen, so the seller is quite within his rights to tell him to go and do one. The buyer hasn't got a leg to stand on even if the complaints were justifiable - having replaced the timing belt there is no proof that the old one was in poor shape.
Even if he had bought the car as seen from an auction or dealer the situation would be the same.
Keep all the messages; I doubt this will go to court though.

I agree with you about the timing belt, however i have had one of my other baiting charactors contact the buyer and he is saying he has kept all of the old parts for evidence. but again without proof that the belt was ever on the car?? or could just be another bluff?.

Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:31 pm

This is from the AA website

Quote:

If you buy privately, it's a case of 'Buyer Beware'. You won't have the same legal protection as you would if buying from a dealer and it's up to you to ask the right questions and inspect the car thoroughly before you buy. It's a good idea to get an independent engineer to give the car a thorough mechanical inspection, and to get a car history check to make sure there's no shady past.

Because your legal rights are more limited, unscrupulous dealers may masquerade as private sellers: be very wary if a private seller wants to meet you somewhere other than at their home, or if their name is not on the V5C registration document. A dealer pretending to be a private seller is committing a criminal offence.

The only legal terms that cover a private sale contract are:

the seller must have the right to sell the car
the vehicle should match the description given by the seller
the car must be roadworthy - it is a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy car and an MOT certificate from a test several months ago is no guarantee that the car is roadworthy today.

Pretty much word for word what it says on the Trading Standards website.

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/glos/con1item.cgi?file=*ADV0003-1011.txt

Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:42 pm

How much was the car sold for? Ask yourself if it is really worth the buyer's time and risk to try to get his money back once the various fees are added in and the risk of him having to stump for these is taken into account. If the answer is "probably not" then this is just an attempt to wring some money out of the seller using the threat of legal action.

You do find things wrong with old cars, that's why dealers charge more than private sellers. Any sensible buyer knows this and checks the thing out thoroughly - either that or they just prepare to accept any bother that comes with it. I think there is very little chance of the buyer causing any real problems if you don't give in.

Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:46 pm

By the way it doesn't really seem kosher to bait the buyer, if the story is as you describe it. Not sure what you hope to accomplish and at worst it could work against you if it goes to court. Best to stay squeaky clean, wait and see if buyer does go to court.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

next victim wrote:

I am not a lawyer

Nor am I.

This is a civil issue, nothing criminal here, and certainly not baitable.

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:38 am

^
^^

Agreed. Don't bait him.

Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:36 am

The phrase "buyer beware" springs to mind. Any used car will develop problems, it's up to the buyer to check the car over thoroughly or have someone do it for them. They can hardly try and hold a private seller to the same standards you expect from a dealership!!

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 28 Dec 2013 Posts: 1

It's a scam! A timing belt is just a serviceable item. They get changed as they can snap with age, which will pretty much destroy the top of the engine. There are no symptoms of a worn belt, the engine is either working, or the pistons are getting over friendly with the valves.

The new owner has either not had the work done, or is changing the belt as a precaution and trying to recover some of the costs from yourself.

Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:36 pm

^ true. And seeing as the timing belt was within 30% of its service life there should be no reason to consider inspecting it unless you were expecting to find something (or engineering the excuse).
If a timing belt is too tight it will whistle or whine loudly, if it is too loose it will make a flappy, wobbly noise but around correct tension it will be quiet. If it is correctly tensioned and well within its service life there is no reason it would become unservicable unless something really stupid had happened to it (in which case it would have come undone well before 24000 miles)

As it happens I changed a combelt on an old Toyota Camry which had suffered a breakage. It was one of the few engines I knew of that was non-interferance, so i just popped a new belt on and ran it up, all was well and the customer was most delighted. I'm told 2.0 Pinto engines with stock cams behave the same, but most modern engines, especially diesels, will "interfere" and as you've pointed out, trash the top end. The bottom end doesn't like it much either.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 32

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer...

It was the buyer's decision to proceed with the work. If he wasn't happy with the car he should have first had an estimate of the costs of the work that needed doing. Based on that estimate, he should have then decided if he was happy to pay for the work himself. If he wasn't, then he should have approached the seller with a view to sharing the costs, or if that wasn't an option, then returning the car. And I think it would have been perfectly reasonable for the the seller to have inspected the car before refunding.

It is indeed buyer beware in private sales.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21155

Quote:

Based on that estimate, he should have then decided if he was happy to pay for the work himself. If he wasn't, then he should have approached the seller with a view to sharing the costs, or if that wasn't an option, then returning the car.

That is ex post facto and not an option after the sale in most countries. It is buyer beware and you don't get any refund for laziness. He should have driven it and had it checked if he wanted that option on the table. That would have at least been negotiable before the buy.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

next victim wrote:

ex post facto

Whenever Latin gets involved, things get sexy.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 32

next victim wrote:

Quote:

Based on that estimate, he should have then decided if he was happy to pay for the work himself. If he wasn't, then he should have approached the seller with a view to sharing the costs, or if that wasn't an option, then returning the car.

That is ex post facto and not an option after the sale in most countries. It is buyer beware and you don't get any refund for laziness. He should have driven it and had it checked if he wanted that option on the table. That would have at least been negotiable before the buy.

Yes, that is true. The seller is under no obligation at all to do anything. The buyer had the opportunity to test drive on two occasions and declined.

I was simply pointing out what could happen - the buyer is being unreasonable, but if the seller wanted to, he could call the buyer's bluff, tell him to bring the car back so he could have his own mechanic check the car over. If his mechanic said all the work needed doing then the seller could offer a refund, or challenge what the buyer had done to the car to get it into such a poor state. But if the seller did offer this, then I suspect the buyer would either disappear very quickly, or get very unreasonable and verbal and then disappear. There's no way the buyer would see the car again either way.

Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:47 pm

As a man who studied UK business law to a HND level I can quite confidently tell you that your colleague has nothing to worry about.
If I was your colleague, I'd tell the buyer to inform his wife that she needs to resit her exams. Legally speaking, he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
He agreed to buy the car as he found it.
He may return the car to your colleague for a full refund within a certain time period if he is not satisfied, however he's gone ahead and had work done so those costs are out of his pocket. Your colleague is not obligated to pay anything towards that work.

Also mention if he doesn't stop trying to bully money from your colleague which isn't owed using baseless legal threats, you are within your rights to pursue a harassment case against him.

Just stand your ground. There's nothing he can do. Once he gets the picture that you wont ever pay him, he'll give up.

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