Material from a student forum on baiting *Answers Submitted*

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Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:04 pm

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Are scam baiters official law enforcement with the authority to arrest those that are found guilty of scam baiting?

Why would scambaiters arrest scambaiters?

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Is there any electronic software that exists or that is being made that can detect possible scam baiting?

There is such a variety of baiting that I don't think that's possible.

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What do scambaiters do to the scammers after they have caught them? (Besides pranking them). Do they turn the scammers over to law enforcement?

We don't catch them. We may induce them to take futile trips, or report theyr bank accounts (which may result in their arrest, or may just result in the bank watching the account).

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How do scammers get people's email addresses in the first place?

The same way spammers do. Scammers, when they send out their initial scripts, are spammers. They get them by spidering webpages, by reading newsgroups, by splicing other addresses from spam mailing lists, or from other spammers.

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Are scambaiters punished? It seems like they are doing roughly the same thing as scammers because it mentioned several times that scambaiting was a hobby. They just scam a more focused group.

Like scammers, we deceive people. Unlike scammers, we don't try to get money from them. Unlike scammers, we deceive only people who deceive others.

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What happens after the scambaiter bates the scammer? After reading the script of the scambaiter who scammed the scammer for wood carvings, it seems like the scambaither just let 'John' disappear after scamming him. How is this helping matters?

It leaves the scammer uncertain whether the apparent victim was a baiter or a real victim who twigged.

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Is scamming a crime, and if so, what is the punishment for it here in the US?

The Vasseurs, accomplices to scammers, were sentenced to at least 12 years in prison each. The Nigerian scammers have not yet been found.

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Do scambaiters turn the scammers over to the authorities?

We report their bank accounts. A few of us have gotten them arrested, but as they use fake names, that is difficult to do.

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Is there possibly a less dangerous way that scammers could be caught?

Scambaiting, if done properly, is safe.

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Is there a way that the general population could be educated about scamming so that they will not be caught by it?

We try to educate the population, but there will always be people who don't know that there is no US department of Royal Mail, that travel agents in the destination country don't issue visas, that +44-704 numbers are phony, etc.

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Are there certain characteristics that people who are scammers or scambaiters tend to have across the board?

Scammers tend to lack conscience. Baiters seem to be pretty varied.

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What potential dangers do scambaiting allow?

If done right, none. The scammer has no idea who or where the baiter really is.

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What are some effective techniques that scambaiters use?

*Composing an itinerary, then arranging a disaster at the airport where the character changes planes
*Setting up pretend shipping companies
*Pretending to be scammers
*Publishing emails and fake documents sent by scammers

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How can scam-baiters evaluate whether the scammer is fake or just an actual person seriously seeking a business proposal? Can't it be a gamble at times?

Scam scripts are generally spammed. We check whether the IP address matches the claimed location. We offer nonsensical products such as gibbous wrenches or spurving bearings. We ask gold scammers to provide tiberium.

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This approach is not okay, because two wrongs do not make a right. Using wrong tactics to catch the scammers makes you just as bad as them.

We are not trying to extort money from scammers.

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How do scam baiters originally get the email of the scammers? Do they wait to be emailed or look for people that have been emailed?

Scammers send us email; we post it in public so that everyone knows it's scam, and other baiters pick some of the emails and bait them.

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After messing with the scammer, what is done with them?

We leave them hanging, not knowing that they have been baited.

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How do scammbaiters make money? Is this their job or is it simply a hobby?

We don't make money by baiting.

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How many people give scammers their bank account information?

Too many!

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We shouldn't consider scam-baiting an effective enforcement against scamming. However it is really funny.

It is effective enough that scammers have retaliated with denial-of-service attacks. It is also indeed funny.

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What is the end goal of a scam baiter

To drive scammers to repentance. But if that happens, we never hear from them again. Failing that, to waste their time and resources so that fewer victims are scammed.

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Why are there so many in Nigeria of all places?

Nigeria has the highest population in the scam belt, which stretches from Senegambia to Cameroon. Why that is the scam belt, I don't know. There are scammers in lots of other places, such as Russia, Malaysia, and the US.

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What is the best prank you have ever pulled on a scammer that has actually gone through?

Pretending to travel round the world (Maryland-Illinois-Japan-Germany-Maryland) and be arrested in Japan (my character was supposed to go from Japan to Indonesia to pick up the trunk box). The scammer did not believe it until I sent him a fake newspaper article explaining that a German drug counterfeiter, whose name resembles my character's, was arrested in Japan.

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If you are able to withhold all personal information and able to protect your IP address, what other dangers can a scam baiter face?

None that I know of.

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What are some of the signs of email scams?

*Punctuation or spelling that look West African, when the person claims to be somewhere else.
*Resembling a scam script.
*References to nonexistent lotteries such as the Microsoft/Yahoo lottery.
*Unsolicited loan offers.
*Being unclear about whether something is a contract or inheritance.

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If you are caught in an email scam, what is the best way to get out of one?

Stop answering and ignore the scammer.

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Is scambaiting really very effective? Do the scammers ever figure things out or are they as gullible as they seem?

Some scammers twig. Some just give up trying to scam the baiter.

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After a scammer is fooled into sending information to the scambaiter, does the scambaiter just laugh and find another scammer to mess with or are the proper authorities involved?

If the scammer sends bank or credit card information, we report it to get it shut down.

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How dramatic does a scambaiter's life change?

I spend several hours a week trying to kill fake sites and trick scammers. Other than that, not much.

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Do they ever reveal anything even remotely personal to the scammers in order to make the scambaiting more authentic?

The only true personal info I've sent to a scammer is that I was sick. But I have introduced well-known events, such as hurricanes, into baits to make them authentic.

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Should scambaiters be technically inducted into the government as they are attempting to help the citizens of America and are trying to function under the law, outside the law?

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:34 pm

vonpaso xlura wrote:

Why would scambaiters arrest scambaiters?

I think several of them are happily mixing the terms "scamming" and "baiting", referring to both as scam baiting (which makes sort of sense when you write it as two words instead of one.) There has also been some mixing of scammers and baiters.

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:57 pm

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Q:How do scammers get people's email addresses in the first place?

The one that often gets missed is 'Chain Mail' and 'Joke Mail' forwarding.

You know the ones ---- 'Read this and then forward it to everyone in your address book' --- Statistically; along the line someone's address book will include that of a scammer.

Lucky Scammer ! --- he gets to read your joke and a whole chain of e-mail addresses to work on.

*** BTW //// great work Duckling *****

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:17 pm

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After a scammer is fooled into sending information to the scambaiter, does the scambaiter just laugh and find another scammer to mess with or are the proper authorities involved?

Another thing many of us do is report as much information about scammers to a warning site. If someone does a Google search of an E-mail address, Possible scammers name, or suspect phone number it will hopefully lead them to one of these warning sites and hopefully save them from becoming victims. Some of the Refugee scammer threads I post information on the Banker & Lawyer to will shoot up in the number of views pretty quickly. To me that means someone believed the scam past the point of getting the first three or so E-mails from the original Refugee.

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:34 pm

Well done, Duckling and NCTeacher.

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:22 am

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Are there safer alternatives to scam baiting?

Answer:- Being a mod here.

Thanks Duckling, good job. Thumbs up

Baiting Guru Joined: 10 Oct 2010 Posts: 3876

for me, this is one of the striking questions:

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Scambaiting doesn't seem like a job that is part of official law enforcement, so is it even legal for scambaiters to do what they do?

it was already mentioned, that scambaiters are from various nations and from several continents. therefore, the system of justice differs aswell. a baiting modality that is legal in one country can be illegal in another country. therefore, every baiter should think about where this line is (in his country) and what is allowed to do. on the other hand, scammers will never seek legal advise because they were tricked. because that would mean admitting their own criminal status, which is a bad idea, in countries like ghana or south africa, which try to fight scammers. and here within the community, there is one simple rule for baiting, that wasn't mentioned so far: only use systems and techniques that you feel comfortable with. and that includes concerns about the legality of some of these methods aswell as the conscience and moral aspects.

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What are some effective techniques that scambaiters use?

perhaps one of the most effective technique is deeducation. usually, if we spot a mistake in the scammers script, it's a very bad idea to poke him and tell him about that mistake. but on the other side, it's a very good idea to tell him, that something he actually made right (but didn't understand, maybe because he bought that script) is wrong. for example, they like the word barrister. some baiters tell lads, that this word is oldfashioned, and now it's modern to use the word shyster. there is no limit to that deeducation, some baiters feed their scammers with whole bogus scripts like the nigerian airforce pilot who is the pilot of the mars rover spirit, and needs funds to go back to earth and to pay his bills at the martian capital city hospital. this modality makes it very easy for possible victims to spot the scam. and the scammer is wondering why there are no responses from victims.

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:07 pm

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How can we make this more of a universal movement?

I've been thinking about this one. Educate your family and friends, make them aware that a friendly stranger on the internet is likely NOT a friend. If they need to forward every scam email they receive, let them for a while, and with guidance they'll soon understand. It's an "Aha!" moment when they get it, and they will then share with others.

As for being paid for these endeavors, well, that would be nice. But my satisfaction is had by sending a report to an abuse desk and having the IT tech address me by name and yanking a fake site within minutes. Being recognized as honest and thorough is reward enough. I think the universal movement is one of proaction, not reaction.

/soapbox

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:24 pm

Great in-depth answers, folks. Added to the list. Thumbs up

Edit: TheFae, do you mind if I split your answer into two? I think the part about getting paid would fit another question well.

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:14 pm

I'm not sure which question this is in response to, if any, but I'd like to share some of my general thoughts and comments on baiting:

Several of the students have probably played the video game Assassin's Creed, and as such, they may be familiar with the saying, "nothing is true; everything is permitted". I like to think that this applies to baiting. Nothing in our correspondence with the scammers is ever true; not anything they tell us, nor anything we tell them. And almost everything is permitted to advance our goal of slowing down or stopping the scammers from robbing real victims. We send them on long trips, ask them to fill out long and complicated forms, send them to the bank repeatedly with fake payment information, call them in the middle of the night, and generally waste large amounts of their time, effort, and money.

This attitude is very liberating and empowering for a scambaiter. People who stick with it long enough find out that they have the power to make the scammers do pretty much anything they can think of. They just need to find a scammer who is willing enough and gullible enough.

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:39 am

the Duckster wrote:

Edit: TheFae, do you mind if I split your answer into two? I think the part about getting paid would fit another question well.

Of course, and however else I may help, please let me know.

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:26 am

Apart from using the soapbox more in general, there is one question which has been largely ignored so far. I messed up with the formatting when posting, so it went together with another question, and I figured only later that it was a question of its own. It's this:

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Does the act of doing something wrong to achieve a good outcome make it okay?

I guess this is basically the same as if baiters find the hobby morally OK, but if anyone in addition to yours truly wants to have a go at it, please do.

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:51 am

What does scam baiting say about the character of those that scam bait?
Very good question. I'd say will to change some things that are outright wrong and a somewhat twisted sense of humour

Are scam baiters official law enforcement with the authority to arrest those that are found guilty of scam baiting?
No. We are just ordinary people, although it's possible that some law enforcer baits scammers and we do not know it. We value privacy a lot.

Is there any electronic software that exists or that is being made that can detect possible scam baiting?
I don't think so. Our mails (and the scammer's) are no different than ordinary mails.

Scambaiting doesn't seem like a job that is part of official law enforcement, so is it even legal for scambaiters to do what they do?
As far as I know, it is legal. We make it a point not to steal from the scammers, send them viruses or malware (mostly because they use cyber cafes, and sending a virus to them would only cause trouble to the owner) or spy them by illegal means.

What do scambaiters do to the scammers after they have caught them? (Besides pranking them). Do they turn the scammers over to law enforcement?
We sometimes try to, but sadly with very little success. Countries with most concentration of scammers are those with very permissive attitudes from Law Enforcement agents, although some times we've achieved arrests (sometimes not even for scamming, perhaps we asked them to wander around a military barracks, or overstay their visa in a foreign country...).

How do scammers get people's email addresses in the first place?
Many people leave their addresses in guestbooks or social networks. Some search manually and some use a special software that searches the internet for e-mail addresses. Besides, many scammers trade, buy or sell their mailing lists.

Are scambaiters punished? It seems like they are doing roughly the same thing as scammers because it mentioned several times that scambaiting was a hobby. They just scam a more focused group.

What kind of involvement does law enforcement have regarding scamming?
Regards scamming, well, in many Third World countries, scamming is not prosecuted. In the West, there might be more arrests of scammers into their borders, but not as many as we'd expect, and if the scammer is abroad, the police will only move for vast sums of money, which is not usually the case (the average victim pays between hundreds and thousands of dollars).

What happens after the scambaiter bates the scammer? After reading the script of the scambaiter who scammed the scammer for wood carvings, it seems like the scambaither just let 'John' disappear after scamming him. How is this helping matters?
Usually the scammer will drop the baiter when he realises he's not getting any money from him, or when he sees it's a trap. Some very skilled baiters manage to keep scammers on the hook for years, changing the plot whenever they feel he is starting to see it's not a real deal. Usually, the baiter disappears with a feeling of satisfaction for a well done job, or he passes the scammer to a fellow baiter.

Are there really people stupid enough out there to provide their bank account info like that to scammers?
People do send financial details to scammers, even if they do nothing of them, they just ask for it to pretend they will send money to your account. Still people fall for scams, and I wouldn't call that "being stupid". They usually prey on unaware people: would you call a man or woman that has just divorced or lost a loved one stupid for falling for a good-looking, caring, understanding and nice individual that pretends to show interest for them? I would not. Or people from developing countries that may be less familiar with the internet and more likely to fall for something they do not recognise for a scam.

Why do we not just create a branch of official government law enforcement to handle this instead of letting people do it as a hobby?
As far as the "normal" scam goes, the police is not going to spend incredible amounts of money and time to get a scammer that has stolen a couple of thousands of dollars and lives in a foreign country. Besides, even if we do not do illegal stuff, we do some things Law Enforcement should not be doing, i.e., wasting scammer's time and resources and preventing them from preying on potential victims.

Is scamming a crime, and if so, what is the punishment for it here in the US?
I am not american so I do not know what is your law, but yes, scamming is a crime. As I told you before, if the scammer is not in the USA, the police will not move unless he has scammed massive amounts of money (hundreds of thousands of dollars) from one person.

Are there safer alternatives to scam baiting?
Yes, fake site killing. Many scammers create fake websites (which cost them money) to give more credibility to their confidence tricks. Some people devote lots of hours to report them to the host so that the website gets closed besides or instead of scam baiting.

Do scambaiters turn the scammers over to the authorities?
We do not do that often because it's extremely improbable that it will turn to something useful. However, we can report their bank accounts and credit cards so they get shut down.

What is the craziest thing you were able to get a scammer to do?
I'm a straight baiter, which means I tend to behave as a normal victim would (without paying, of course), but I enjoy playing a fake scammer too. I have got scammers spend hours on end waiting in an airport only to stage a call in which I was "kidnapped" by a rival gang, for instance, but the craziest thing I have done is convince a scammer to try and use a "script" I gave him based in the Tintin Adventures comics. I told him I would give him several potential victims, but in fact they were all fellow baiters, so he spent several weeks devoting his life to us.

Is there possibly a less dangerous way that scammers could be caught?
Our goal is not to catch scammers but to waste their time and resources. However, scam baiting is not dangerous if you do not do stupid things, like using personal details or trying to meet the scammers in person.

Is there a way that the general population could be educated about scamming so that they will not be caught by it?
Yes. Educating your friends, family members... about scams.

Are there certain characteristics that people who are scammers or scambaiters tend to have across the board?
To put it short, lads are lazy and greedy. They may be smart, they may be stupid, but they're all characterised by this. They want to make more money and more easily than any law-abiding citizen of their country: an average nigerian scammer can make in a month what a honest nigerian makes in a year. Baiters, on the other hand, want to do some justice, even if not in very conventional terms and tend to have a somewhat twisted sense of humour.

Is scambaiting effective enough to outweigh the possible dangers?
Dangers are not too important if you "bait safely". As being effective, well: every minute they are with you, they are not with a real victim.

What potential dangers do scambaiting allow?
We are extremely careful: we must not forget that they are criminals, no matter how dumb they may appear at first so we make it a point to bait safely and teach all new baiters how to do so.

What are some effective techniques that scambaiters use?
Killing fake sites, wasting their money travelling to far places or calling you, asking them to fill in lengthy forms, reporting their bank accounts and credit cards to the authorities...

Is scamming doing anything actually illegal if people do not fall for it?
Yes, it's attempted crime.

How is scamming (or stealing from an innocent victim) any different than a regular robber who might rob a bank? Shouldn't both be punished the same way?
Internet Scammers are very difficult to track down, that is the reason why they are caught and punished less often.

Can scam-baiting be a job?
Sadly not. I would sign up for it if it were!

How can scam-baiters evaluate whether the scammer is fake or just an actual person seriously seeking a business proposal? Can't it be a gamble at times?
At first you may doubt (but then a fellow baiter will lend a hand) but with little time you learn to read the tell-tale signs: promises of big, big money with little effort, copy-pasted stories, gorgeous girls falling in love with you in two e-mails...

How can scammers collect the people's information to trick them?
By techniques of manipulation and simple lying.

Why do people fall for scams?
Because they may be desperate for money or love, or simply they can not identify them.

The scammers need to be caught, can this be done by not hurting the scammer in any way?
Catching them is a Law Enforcement job. We try to stop them from scamming real victims by keeping them focused on us.

How do scam baiters originally get the email of the scammers? Do they wait to be emailed or look for people that have been emailed?
Some of us keep a "catcher" e-mail account in which we try to get as much scam e-mails as possible. Besides, many baiters share the scammers they are not baiting.

After messing with the scammer, what is done with them?
We may simply disappear, or pass them to another baiter or start baiting them again with another identity.

How do scammbaiters make money? Is this their job or is it simply a hobby?
It is a hobby. We do not make money out of this, although I'd love scam baiting to be my job!

How many people give scammers their bank account information?
Many do, but scammers usually make nothing of them. They usually ask you to wire them money by Western Union or Money Gram.

If your going to try to trick someone out of their life savings doesn't that open you up to any crap that happens to you.
Indeed. This could be the motto of baiters.

We shouldn't consider scam-baiting an effective enforcement against scamming. However it is really funny.
It is really funny. As for effectiveness, we're not Law Enforcers, we just try to stop them scamming by different means.

What is the end goal of a scam baiter
To stop scammers from scamming and have fun doing so.

Are the scambaiters not using practically the same techniques on the scammers that the scammers are using on innocent victims?
To some extent, yes. We both try to manipulate our targets, but they do this to steal money and we do it to stop them doing so.

Should regulations be put on scammbaiting?
If you mean "laws", I do not think so. The strenght of Scambaiting is that scammers do not recognise it for what it is. They mostly think they've run into a very stupid victim or someone that just wants to play a prank.

Is there any sort of legislation pertaining to scambaiting? Is any being considered?
No. As I said before, the more "hidden" scambaiting is, the better for us. If a scammer knew there is such think as an organized troupe of scam baiters he'd be on the lookout for us and would take more sophisticated security measures, so our job would get more difficult.

What's the worst that's ever happened to a scambaiter? How often is their cover blown?
Usually a death threat (absolutely empty, as scammers will not know where we are, and even if they knew, many would not pay a plane ticket to your place to beat you up), or a rant full of profanity.

How can we make this more of a universal movement?
It is, even if small, we have got people from all nationalities.

Why are there so many in Nigeria of all places?
There is no definite answer for this. As far as I know it's just a tolerance of scammers by law enforcement agents.

Is this such a widespread problem that we should be dedicating large amounts of people toward stopping it?
I think it's not "more resources" but "smarter fighting" that would stop internet scammers.

The scams that were given as examples didn't seem to be attempts that most people would fall for. What percentage of people who are sent these kinds of scams actually end up falling for them and sending these people money?
We don't really know, because many victims are too embarrassed to confess they have been scamers.

Do these scambaiters succeed in deterring scammers from continuing their "occupation" or are they simply fueling the fire?
We may not stop them for life, but we can keep them for weeks, months or even years without them seeing a real victim.

How can we detect and report these people when they email or contact us?
Visit scamwarners.com. They will tell you how to do it in detail.

As technology advances are the scammers advancing or is the advancing in technology foiling the scammers.
I'd say they are advancing, as it's easier to start scamming, but as well, as more people have got internet access, they become more educated and less likely to fall for a scam.

Which country generates the most scammers?
West African countries, but also India, Malaysia, the US...

What is the best prank you have ever pulled on a scammer that has actually gone through?
Encouraging him to try and scam people (actually other baiters) with a "script" based in "Tintin Adventures", which was designed not to fool anyone.

Can you seek legal action against scammers besides just reporting fraud accounts to banks? If so, what can you do?
Sadly we can't do much more than this.

If you are able to withhold all personal information and able to protect your IP address, what other dangers can a scam baiter face?
Very little.

How dangerous is scambaiting for the baiter?
Has scambaiting ever helped catch the scammer?

Is the punishment inflicted on scammers by the scambaiters worse than the punishment they would have gotten if they were caught and tried in and american court of law?
It depends on the baiter, but I'd say in 90% of the cases, no.

Have you received any threats to your life as a result of scambating?
Many. All of them absolutely empty and quite funny.

What are some of the signs of email scams?
Promising impossible amounts of money with no effort.

If you are caught in an email scam, what is the best way to get out of one?
Stopping the communication with the scammer.

Are there any legal steps in place to keep anything bad from happening to people acting as scambait.
Sadly no.

What happens if someone who is attempting to stop the crime of scamming commits a crime themselves? Are they exempted from punishment? Why or why not? Does the act of doing something wrong to achieve a good outcome make it okay?
We keep things on legality and we do not force scammers to do the things they do for us. They always have a choice, but usually prefer to be driven by their greed.

Do scambaiters keep scammers off for good or simply trick them?
Sadly we can't force a scammer to give up scamming, but we may keep them months or even years in the best of cases without scamming or with very little activity.

Do the scambaiters themselves think this is morally okay?
Yes. I sometimes may think that a fellow baiter has gone "overboard", but everyone has got his "morality threshold". I generally think that as far as the scammer does not die because of us, it's OK.

Do scambaiters find their job fun?
It's not a job, but we do find it fun.

Is scambaiting really very effective? Do the scammers ever figure things out or are they as gullible as they seem?
It is usually effective in distracting them from scamming for a period of time: the most gullible scammers paired with the best baiters will not realise they have been baited for years, some will last only a couple of weeks, but I think that any second a scammer is with us, every cent he spends calling us are a second that he won't be able to communicate with victims and a cent he won't be able to spend in a cyber cafe to keep scamming.

After a scammer is fooled into sending information to the scambaiter, does the scambaiter just laugh and find another scammer to mess with or are the proper authorities involved?
We do not involve the authorities, because they can do very little. There i an exception and that is when we can be sure that the scammer has got a victim or a money mule (someone that unwittingly cashes money from scams and sends it to the scammer). Then the moderators of our scambaiting forum will contact with the authorities.

How dramatic does a scambaiter's life change?
Not much. I may spend a couple of hours throughout the day checking my baiting e-mail addresses, reading other people's baits and chatting with them.

Do scambaiters view themselves as a form of 'underground justice league'? AKA, do they see this as fighting for justice or for themselves?
We try to make justice, but we're not vigilantes, we don't take the law in our hands. We just try to have a good time by messing up with those who deserve it.

Do they ever reveal anything even remotely personal to the scammers in order to make the scambaiting more authentic?
No, we make up all deals. Usually scammers don't ask for much at the beginning of a bait (name, address, phone number...) and other details he may want, we make them up on the go. At the end you get several characters each one with a distinct personality and personal history.

Should scambaiters be technically inducted into the government as they are attempting to help the citizens of America and are trying to function under the law, outside the law?
If we worked as government officers we'd have to do what the law tells them to do. Even if we don't do illegal things, we can harm scammers in many different ways a Law Enforcer can not.

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:29 am

There goes my free Sunday evening. Laughing

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