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 Sending Out ASEM's

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benjaminbunny
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm really sorry that you don't agree with our point of view. The people who have answered you do have a lot of experience and have also had many dealings with real victims. Unfortunately, though we have the same aims, your methods are contradictory to ours, and without finding any real logic in your methods, I for one can't condone them.
I just have to repeat, it's wasted effort, and effort that could be better used elsewhere.

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Sisters Of Spam
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of that ^^^ post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just there ^^^ - SP

Hi

Thanks for your comment.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

The main reason of posting here was originally to advise other members that if they are sending out ASEM's to please let us know so we can ensure their emails are not reported for closure. This still stands, so if you are sending these out for baiting, please send a private message via the forum and we'll keep your reply address off our closing lists.

Many Thanks

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm very lazy and I've set up two or three email accounts a night. I doubt it's beyond the capabilities of a Lad to do better, especially if it s his full time job.

I really think that what you're doing is done with the best of intentions but it's a blunt instrument at best and at worst counterproductive, since - as has been said before - it moves the goalposts and forces any efforts of tagging and tracking offending addresses into a screaming mess of cold trails and dead ends.

There are other things you could be doing instead that will do much greater harm to the villains and a lot more good to the good guys.

- Educating potential victims
- killing bank sites or fraud portals
- killing bank accounts
- killing mobile phone accounts
- wasting lads time and resources
- at the very least, send an insulting email a day to annoy, upset or confuse the lad. it's all good.

just killing their email addresses - any email addresses - means we can't see where they're going. It just turns out the lights on us, which helps not a bit.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@ Sisters Of Spam, stop quoting previous posts in your posts, read the forum rules Wink

We have a thing here about quoting, which is, we don't quote whole posts, and we certainly don't quote the whole post directly above our reply, it just makes the forum look messy and harder to read.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm brand new to baiting, but not brand new to the net and how it functions from an administrative point of view. Sorry, shutting down their 'free-accounts' does nothing more than cause the scammer to take 1 minute out his day to create a new account and send out their next modality. Remember, they'll likely be appearing as a 'new identity' which could gain them more victims. And, they'll pick up old scams right they left off with some excuse. There are FAR more scammers than can be kept track of, and not enough people fighting them.

Seriously, already listed in this thread are more effective tactics for your group to use than wasting your time. It's not 'fighting the good fight', it's throwing mud on the battlefield and calling it a barrier.

The more experienced voices have spoken and you have not stopped to think about the levity of their words, I don't know why I think my own will make a difference, other than adding to the point. Please reconsider your tactics and don't continue to be gullible.

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Sisters Of Spam
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Mod edit - unnecessary full quote of earlier post removed, no need to quote it, we can see it, it's just up there ^^^ - SP

Hi - Thanks for your comment

We actually do all of these (apart from the mobile phone accounts - that never crossed our minds until now! Smile ).

We don't just simply close down accounts - we actually do a lot more Very Happy

I think the problem here is that most baiters here think we're going to close down all avenues to the scammers - we're not - and with the small amount we actually get closed down in comparison to the huge amount sent out each day - we're only helping to save some people from getting scammed - that's all.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@ Sisters Of Spam, do you read at all? You are still quoting full posts, I have edited all of your posts to remove said quotes, instead, if you want to answer a particular member, simply use @ username

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sorry about the quotes in the posts! Sad

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
As I mentioned previously, we're all here for the same reason - to help reduce the amount of people being scammed - that's all.


Not feeling like beating the dead horse, I'll just stick with a hearty 'Welcome here', then. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sisters of spam, it´s very good that you are trying to contribute to the fight against scams Very Happy

Please give the modalities a thought though. You might find a much more successful niché for your effort and energy.

Fake Site killing, for example. This gives the lads real pain and costs them money. Or shutting down phone lad accounts.

Read a bit about that if you like and give your modalities a thought. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If you do want to kill e-mail addresses the ones to concentrate on are those for phone lads - we have a section dedicated to them and a site with a list of addresses needing killing at www.phonelads.com .

With phone lads it is beneficial to kill the address. Phonelads operate by spamming their e-mail addresses on forums etc, which means that when the address gets killed they have to start again.
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sheboppe
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sisters Of Spam wrote:
however, even if it only saves one or two people from falling for a scam, then it's done it's job. With that in mind, it's not completely futile.

Yes, it saves one or two people from being scammed for five seconds while the scammer contacts them again from a brand new addy and continues where he left off.
Quote:

As I mentioned previously, we're all here for the same reason - to help reduce the amount of people being scammed - that's all.

Very true, but our way brings about a much harder impact, and longer lasting results.

The facts are the facts. Closing down their email doesn't change the facts, and just fuels them to continue on. If you like chasing your tail, by all means, please continue with what you are doing.

I have said all that I am going to say on this topic. Very Happy

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Last edited by sheboppe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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sheboppe
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sisters Of Spam wrote:
We don't just simply close down accounts - we actually do a lot more Very Happy


Such as? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@Sisters.... would you mind telling us a little of your history and results?

Such as, how long you've been in action, how many email addresses you've shut down, any idea of the average # of email addresses for the same actual person scamming, size of your group, links with officials or law enforcement, etc.?

And, of course, welcome and thank you for the good intentions.

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ezilja.fallut
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Baiting a scammer : aka wasting scammer time in any way possible.


Shutting down a scammers email means they waste a few seconds setting up a new one and informing ALL their contacts of the new email and of the change. Aka typing (or atleast copy pasting) the script for it.

So we're talking...half an hour conservatively? Each time?


So what that it doesn't waste as much time as sending a lad on a 5imba 5afari. Like she has been saying. We are working toward the same goal. Stop them.


So stop worrying about your fun baits going down the drain, and remember that others are wasting their time. If your bait is slowed down by anothers actions against your scammer then it should be hard justification and proof that the methods are working.


Edit: haha typo fixed..
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:10 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@ezilja: Read the thread. I find your comment insulting considering all we have said here.
It's not about losing fun baits. Several people have given many other, much more important reasons for not closing the accounts.
I have spent much time making sure that the addresses and scripts of scammers I deal with are posted on anti scam sites for victims to find.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:10 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@ezilja.fallut - It isn't worry of a bait being ruined as much as it is the possible interference with an LE investigation.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Often a scammer already has several email accounts set up. If you see your lad uses [email protected], then try http://profiles.yahoo.com/fakescammername002, http://profiles.yahoo.com/fakescammername003 and so on. Often it can go up to the 20s, 30s or beyond. All set up and waiting to be used. Lads expect their accounts to be shut down, so they set themselves up to be back up and running in the shortest time possible. They'll also send copies of their email lists to all the other acounts ready. We know this from conversations with the scammers themselves. Closing down an account may only inconvenience them for the time it takes for them to mass email their contact list with the new email address. Maybe a minute at most.

(edit) Edited cos fakename002 actually exists Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I highly doubt most of us are overly concerned about loosing our baits ... I bet for the most part, the vast majority wish that baiting was not a necessary evil. But thus far it is the best tactic ...

@sisters, you wanna see how effective baiting can be? Check out Zebra Mass Bait In all honesty, the group of us have this scammer so mixed up that the scammer isn't initiating any deal correctly any more. Real victims would be taking a step back and going ... uhhh, say wha'?

This ends up being a lot more taxing on a lads time than having to take a minute to start a new account.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

For Your Information...

It was my account, that I was sending ASEMs from, and the Sisters of Spam sent Google a shut down request thinking that I was a scammer.

I replied immediatly to them and said hang on I am a baiter, although this will probably have no effect on Gmail shutting my account.

I am a little bit pissed off at SoS for shutting my account down. I have a good bait going on there currently , the results of which you can see on the Pictures and Video forum under the heading Medical Clinics ASEM. It may take credibility away from my bait, because I am changing email address.

Personally, I beleive that SoS should focus more on education and scam warning. It takes literally less than a minute to establish a new web based email account. There is practically no benefit in shutting down a web based email account.

But anyway, Ive made a new account, flooded the guestbooks, and I will produce some trophies in the near future, I promise.

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ezilja.fallut
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@Ima Baeder. I have been reading the thread and it looks mostly like people attacking someone for not doing their way of doing things. Be that as baiting or educating. Examples from everything previous to what I posted before.


On the baiting side. And sorry to benjamin, but I will be using one of your posts. I will say that your comment, that your only concerned about losing the bait is the least of your worries, is valid, but Sisters' posts seem to show quite a lot of hostlity from that possibly interfering with baiting.


Quote:
3) If someone has a bait in progress it can stop it in mid bait


^ That should be ever said then? I'd say it's wonderful the the scammer didn't respond because of this. Means real victims might also have lost contact.

Quote:
I applaud anyone who spends their time fighting internet scam. I just think that spending a lot of time shutting down the email accounts isn't the best way to use your time and resources.



^ this is constructive HOW?

As to the education side. Yes it does slightly hinder the archive of scammer emails. But the same argument you've all been giving defeats that. A scammer can make a new email in seconds. So what good is a archive when as scammer just makes a new name after getting no replies on his old one? Scripts change too. If they didn't then we wouldn't need to educate as just good old residual "did you hear what happened to..(insert name) because of (insert scam)". I dare say at least one new scam shows up every day just on the list. I'm being conservative too.


@sheboppe. As for the LE investigation. I can only assume thats short for Law Enforcement?. I'll just post this thread link. http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140270
Mod or not. I call BS.


As for your insult, Ima. I didn't direct anything at anyone personally. However it would appear NUMEROUS times people have directed offense at sisters without thinking. I find that insulting when someone is made to feel attacked just for not living up to what someone else thinks they should do.




I've also read the responses while i've been typing this. Shadow has a great example of critizing BUT making a constructive response with it. Atleast other than just "educate educate educate" I'm looking at the site. Seems that there is some education about scams on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
@sheboppe. As for the LE investigation. I can only assume thats short for Law Enforcement?. I'll just post this thread link. http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140270
Mod or not. I call BS.



I assume you're one of those idiots that assume all scams originate in Nigeria. Rolling Eyes Because LE in Nigeria does nothing much to help with arrests, these do happen. There have been many arrests made in Europe, Canada, SA and the USA...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@ezilja:

Quote:
So stop worrying about your fun baits going down the drain.


This comment of yours, along with your entire post, completely ignored posts made by myself and others regarding the many reasons why we disagree with closing accounts. That's what I found insulting. You posted as if we were silly with worry over our fun little baits and were missing the big picture of fighting scammers.

As for discussion regarding closing accounts, Eater, as a community, has a philosophy against it. When someone comes here and posts a method that we strongly disagree with, it is not attacking to try to explain why.

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ezilja.fallut
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lads operate worldwide, so no single police force can catch them!

To get a lad arrested is very tricky, and its almost impossible to verify.

Calling the UK police for example you will be told "dont answer the email" they get thousands of complaints daily about internet fraud. And every other country gets just as many there is no force BIG ENOUGH to deal with all the scammers online.

There ARE some ways to get them arrested, but thats rare.




That's the last post of that thread Lotta, and there is more to it that comments about the Nigerian fixation with scams. I didn't post the link to that because it just targeted scammers in nigeria though. I posted it because Sheboppe is telling sisters that she is harming LE in one post, and then saying LE in a scammer rich country are powerless.

Also please do NOT call me "one of those idiots". I might not like how people are treating Sisters, but I don't disrespect them by calling them names. I target their arguments.

On that note. I agree that just shutting down emails is not as effective, or the best possible route for someone to take. However, I happen to realize that sisters is trying to help, and even easily repaired damage to scammers is still damage and time. Also not everyone feels alright with baiting, or don't feel so great about educating the public. Sisters is doing what it feels secure to do. So she deserves some thanks for the effort.




@Ima baeder. firstly, saying WHY you disagree isn't helpful if you don't also suggest a alternative. It's called constructive criticism. "I don't like that because of this." doesn't help resolve anything, and just leaves the person reciving the criticism feeling like they have failed.

Also Sisters did not ask for everyone telling her that her work is useless and they disagree with it. The only request sister's asked about is a better way of informing which ASEM accounts baiters are using to prevent accidental reporting. Also, I did read the whole thread. I didn't ignore everyone's post, but I was not about to quote EVERYONE. Although you VERY selectively ignored my response which includes some examples. I also noted benjamin's comment that losing the bait was a small concern of his, and, that while valid, didn't help sisters feel better about it.

I would say that you, ima, should re-read sister's reactions to the posts that were being put up. I will not touch this subject further as it's now just old fashioned trolling, at me now, for trying to show some support.
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lotta
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

this is the most recent arrest.

http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1153037

and another:

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/October2007/03/c8105.html

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