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 Conversation With A WU Rep

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Obi-Wan Knievel
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Nothing too profound here: I met with a Western Union (independent) service provider today, and she gracefully agreed to answer a few questions about how WU handles consumer fraud. She agreed to let me record our conversation, but asked that her name and that of her business not be distributed. She runs a business and WU is one of the services provided. I didn't go into great detail (time constraints) with her, but here is the information she gave me. I'm posting it here just for the sake of interest. After the introductions and some small talk, it went like this...

Quote:
HER: So what sort of questions do you have?

ME: Actually, I'm wondering about your and Western Union's directives when it comes to consumer fraud.
HER: If you think you've been a victim of fraud using our service, just let me know and I can stop the payment right now if it hasn't been picked up. What's the transfer number?

ME: No, it's nothing like that. I'm a scambaiter and I'm just looking for information. It's a hobby of mine.
HER: I'm sorry, a what?

ME: Scam-baiter. I bait internet scammers for fun. You know, pretend I'm interested in their e-mail offers, then mess with their heads for a while.
HER: You mean the Nigerian Letter scams? Be careful with those guys. Some of them operate here you know. (I didn't correct her about the "Nigerian" phrase here)

ME: Oh I am, trust me. I'm a member of a web-group, 419Eater, and safety is a huge concern with us. I do it as safe as I can get. Don't worry about that.
HER: Is that why you asked if you could have copies of some of our forms?

ME: Exactly. I plan to scan them and use them against the scammers. They use fake documents to their advantage, so it's fair play.
HER: I don't see a problem with that, but if anybody asks you didn't get them from me. Whatever makes you happy I guess. So you want to know how we handle people who want to send money to Nigeria right?

ME: Well, not just Nigeria. Scammers come from everywhere...
HER: Don't I know it!

ME: and I'm wondering how you handle anybody who... I don't know... might be a scam victim.
HER: That's a tough one, but I'll try. First you have to understand how we operate as a whole.

ME: Of course.
HER: Our job with Western Union is to handle cash transfers from one person or location to another, just like the ads say. If someone comes in and wants to send a few thousand to another country right now, that's what we're here for. Millions of dollars get sent by Western Union every day, and it's fast and fully guaranteed. We make it very clear that who the receiver is or what the money is for is really nobody's business but the client's, and that we're not responsible for anything other than the service we provide. In fact, that's on all the forms you're holding, all the websites, and the poster on the wall. The only time we're allowed to give information out without consent is if we're reporting suspected organized crime or terrorist funding, or stuff like that, to the police. Otherwise, everything is strictly confidential. I'm sure it's the same in your business.

ME: I hear that.
HER: Now about the fraud. We get a few, I don't know how many really, but a few people coming in who we know damn well are being ripped off. There are lots of ways it can happen, and the Nigerian letter scam is one of them. I like to think I can spot it when it happens, often it's just the way the whole thing feels if you know what I mean.

ME: I think I do. I just thought of another question, but I'll ask it later.
HER: (smiles) Don't you have a job? Anyway, everyone sending money gets a copy of the brochure you have (copies HERE and HERE ), and we always ask if they know the person they're sending the money to. If the money is going to Africa or the south Pacific, they pretty much get the third degree. Same thing with the test question. We also have forms in the computer that we can print off and have people sign. Western Union's head office is mostly concerned about covering their own asses, and really they can't do much more than educating the consumer. I try to go further than that here.

ME: So, you have your own sort of procedure in addition to theirs?
HER: Don't get me wrong about head office though. They know that fraud is a big problem, and they don't like being used by criminals one bit. They provide a lot of awareness training in fact. But they're a big corporation. You work with insurance companies, you know what I mean right? Big business doesn't think like you and I do. The government also sends us lots of info on fraud.

ME: I do know what you mean. I believe we're both regulated by FSCO (Financial Services Commision of Ontario) in fact. Do they ever get involved?
HER: Completely. We have their regulations, Western Union's regulations, our own company procedures, Privacy Act, Consumer Act, I could go on and on. It's really hard to fight fraud though, especially when someone really believes it.

ME: Sometimes a person's worst enemy is himself, eh?
HER: Yes! When I see somebody who wants to send money to Africa or to a lottery, especially with the test question, I do everything I can. I make them read the material, even tell them to go home and look up "scam" on the web and maybe talk to someone else about what they're doing before they send money. But if they insist, there's nothing I can do but shake my head.

ME: What about the test question? How does that work actually?
HER: As you know, it's for when someone's ID is lost or stolen, and they're stuck and need cash. It's the number one indicator of a scam too. It also has a limit of $1000 on it. Anything more and the receiver has to provide valid ID. No exceptions. But again, nobody can stop someone from jumping off a cliff.

ME: Well I suppose we all have rules we have to follow. If I go into my bank and want to withdraw $4,000 cash, they can't ask me what it's for.
HER: Exactly - good comparison. Oh, and keep in mind that the rules and procedures here might not be the same in another country - maybe even in another province. But head office's rules are pretty universal I would think. You'd have to ask them about that.

ME: That's understood. I wouldn't expect you to know what goes on at an outlet in Nigeria, or Mexico, or anywhere else. But I did think of my other question again.
HER: Go ahead.

ME: We spent all this time talking about fraud, but who does use Western Union legitimately?
HER: Oh God I thought you said this would be quick! Almost anyone. OK let's say you're buying a house in another country - those deals are all cash or certified funds, and the deal closes tomorrow if you can make the payment. Or maybe your brother just got arrested somewhere and needs bail. Your mom calls from Vegas and her purse was stolen. A lot of businesses use it too - because not every country has the kind of banking that we do. I could never list all the examples, but you get the idea. Cheques and money orders need time to process, credit cards expire all the time, but nobody refuses cash. That's what attracts criminals though. Funny - we're also told to watch out for organized crime, money laundering and terrorist funding, but I've never seen anything close to that here. I would think that those guys don't want any paper trails, but maybe they just don't like my decor or something!

ME: Do you have any guesses as to what percentage would be fraud?
HER: Here? Very small, probably less than one percent. Anywhere else, I couldn't come close. But I bet it's pretty small. One guy actually came in once and wanted to transfer like one dollar or something to himself. I told him the fees would be ten times more than the principal, but he just laughed said "that's ok" and went ahead. Do you think he was one of those scam-hunters?

ME: Either that or a screaming nutcase. Actually there's very little difference!
HER: You know, I can see how that would be kind of fun. Can I check out your website?

ME: Hell yes. Only it's not mine - I'm just a member.

(Conversation turns to Eater, baiting risks, etc. for a while. Then the phone rings, she answers and puts them on hold)

HER: Sorry, I've got a call. Did you want to know anything else?
ME: I've taken up enough of your time already. I really do owe you for this!
HER: Any time. I hope you got the answers you needed. Give me a call if you have more questions.
ME: I will. Again, thank you. And have a good weekend.

(we shake hands and both go back to work)


If other WU outlets are anything like this girl's place, then they're a truly professional service with a good sense of responsibility. I came out of the meeting with a new respect for them, especially considering their obligations and limitations. This person sent me an e-mail in the afternoon saying that, while she still thought I was nuts, she hoped I didn't view her office or WU as being ignorant of or complacent with fraud. She also repeated that I was welcome to any additional information she could provide, and I just might take her up on that offer in the future.

Does anyone have any questions they'd like answered by a WU rep? Keep it nice of course....
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juju4u
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks for posting that, answered some of my questions about WU.

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Donato
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

We all know WU MTCN is 10 numbers and it is viewable online-is there anyway other than 9 number mtcn's or MtCn 53cur3 that we can get the lad off his cafe seat and down to a WU.

What is WU's official policy for known fraudsters using their service?

What will/would/be most likely to get a scammer arrested in a WU pickup?

Are their forms/receipts filled out by hand or by computer-is it a rule or down to each individual 'franchise'?

What is the policy if the info of the person picking it up is wrong-say a name is mis-spelt or the last digit of the mtcn is smudged?

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Good info, Obi!

I have some additional comments regarding WU's policy on where money may be picked up that may be of general interest.

I spoke with a WU rep some months ago:
Q: Does the money have to picked up at the specified location?
A: If it is sent to the US or Canada, then it must be picked up in the state or province, but not necessarily the city specified.
If it is any other country, then it must be picked up in that country, but the local outlet may be "flexible" on the issue of state/province/city.
<She admitted this was mostly second-hand info, no personal experience>

I understood "flexible" to mean some <less than scrupulous> WU agents will accept a variable amount of $$ as kickbacks to allow someone to receive a payment in Ibadan meant for Lagos, for example.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Excellent info Obi. I never knew that the security question was used so the lad does not need to provide id. I always assumed they had someone in the local WU office that they were giving a cut to, for giving the money with no id.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Obi-wan.

Thank you for taking the time to transcribe and post that!

I also would like to know how to get these lads arrested. I am sure it varies by country, etc. But anything she can suggest to ruin a scammers day is pure gold.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Probably too much to ask that WU provide blank or dead-end MTCNs for us to feed the lads... or that trigger a backtrace to their computer.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:50 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Very informative Obi, I was also unaware of the $1,000 limit to send without having to show an ID. Time to start overpaying the lads ' just in case there's additional costs' Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

That's really interesting, Obi. Thanks for taking the time to chat to her and to post it up for us. Very Happy Can you please ask her if there is an amount over which they are required to be more searching in their questions to the sender, in the same way that certain countries trigger an alert? Thanks. Smile

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Obi-Wan Knievel
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

There's some good stuff here! I'll be sure to include some of that for certain. I did get some other information quite a while back (from the RCMP and WU's 1-800 number), but it wasn't this in depth.

Mostly I was asking about how to either get a mugu arrested or at least investigated, and MTCN's. With the how-to-bust-a-lad, the only answers I could get were the old "leave that to the professionals" speech and that was that. It seems that both big corporations and law enforcement officially don't approve of us Swashbuckling Vigilante types getting involved in their business. While it can be (has been) done, I think we're on our own with it for the most part.

With the MTCN questions, here's what I know from this site, WU's site, and the 800 number: The MTCN, which is mostly for WU's records, is used to track the transaction, just like the tracking numbers used by (example) FedEx. It is not ever needed to pick up cash at an outlet, and WU states that repeatedly. As is known here, the lads only want it because they want to know that they won't be going (or sending someone to) the WU counter and coming home empty-handed. It's always 10 digits, and always numerical. I doubt WU would ever release bogus numbers to us for our purposes, but they might for a LEA. For us, the "Payday Modality" looks to be the best option. If you need a smudged MTCN, that's easy so just ask me!

WU's official worldwide policy on illegal activity and its perpetrators is no surprise: They don't want that business, they won't take part in it, and will report it if they see it. For example, the To Receive Money form I have right here says at the bottom "WESTERN UNION AND ITS AGENTS MAY DECLINE TO ACCEPT OR PAY ANY MONEY TRANSFER THAT EITHER OF THEM DETERMINES IN THEIR SOLE DISCRETION VIOLATES ANY APPLICABLE LAW OR WESTERN UNION POLICY". Standard stuff there - no real business wants to be accused of even condoning illegal stuff.

I didn't ask about WU outlets in other (no names mentioned) countries, because logic will answer that for us. In some countries, WU agents will be extremely "flexible" as to payment collection rules. Corruption on every level is a documented way of life in lad-land. In a country where the police are for sale, the chances of one or two WU reps on the take are somewhere between guaranteed and 100%.
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 5:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Obi...........very informative and useful. Welldone U.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Excellent info, Obi. Thanks for obtaining it and posting it for the rest of us. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:42 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Interesting, Thanks, Obi! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 10:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It's very interesting stuff.

Certianly the MTCN thing is explained a bit better, as I'd wondered why El Laddo was so keen to get hold of it if he didn't really need it to pull his "cash".

Good for you for asking these questions. We are wiser and better prepared Smile

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Great interview Obi-Wan. Thumbs up

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:48 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Obi-Wan Knievel wrote:
In some countries, WU agents will be extremely "flexible" as to payment collection rules. Corruption on every level is a documented way of life in lad-land. In a country where the police are for sale, the chances of one or two WU reps on the take are somewhere between guaranteed and 100%.


Exactly Sad I'm sure WU does all it can within local laws and company protocols to protect its customers sending money. The problems start with the people who collect it, both "flexible" WU agents and lads.

I know a very senior WU executive (VP level) and I've asked him about this problem and he was fairly cagey as you might expect. He acknowledges the problem but from the company's point of view they want to keep the system as simple and easy to use as possible for the many millions of people who use it legitimately. And from a business point of view the vast majority of WU transactions ARE legitimate so the company tends to regard lad activity as collateral damage.

I'd be interested to know if a disgruntled victim has ever tried to sue WU for failing in it's duty of care by allowing an internet scam artist to collect a payment. It would be tricky to prove because the victim and the lad aren't actually breaking any WU rules (unless the receiving agent is being 'flexible' and try stopping that in a culture where institutionalised corruption is way of life).

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I had no idea that someone could even get a dollar from WU without proper ID. Very informative Obi thanks again Smile

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This is really good info Obi. Thanks for taking the time to ask and compile this stuff.

Quote:
ME: What about the test question? How does that work actually?
HER: As you know, it's for when someone's ID is lost or stolen, and they're stuck and need cash. It's the number one indicator of a scam too. It also has a limit of $1000 on it. Anything more and the receiver has to provide valid ID. No exceptions. But again, nobody can stop someone from jumping off a cliff.

I actually that especially this bit is very interesting, and I will surely use it in the future to make my lads happy.

Quote:
Whatever makes you happy I guess.

You do know that this is an open invitation to activities your wife should not know about, right?

Also I'd love to see answers to the questions Donato asked, there might be useful info in there.

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