Material from a student forum on baiting *Answers Submitted*

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Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:43 pm

A few weeks ago we got a request here in Eater from a teacher to have a baiter give a 20 minute presentation to high school students on baiting. The thread vanished pretty quickly, but I assure you it was there as much as my latest MTCN was there just before getting picked by my fake lad, because I replied to it.

After some obscure ritual of choosing in the mod lounge, which I can only presume to have involved lots of alcohol and a dart board based on the final choice, I was contacted by luckey and we agreed that I'd do it. We then started exchanging emails with the teacher, set up a Skype contact and voila, today was finally the day I got to scare tens of potential future baiters away from us. You were not there to hear my wonderful voice mangling the English grammar, but I can share with you the wall of text below, which is pretty much word to word what I told them.

Me, myself and I wrote:

Once upon a time there was a girl. The girl lived in the remote countryside as the only daughter of her family. She was lonely, for she did not have many friends, and even though she was already sixteen, she did not know any boys she could have dated. The poor girl wanted only to find someone who would have understood her, called her a friend and even every once in a while said: hey, you know what, you're awesome!

Then a miracle happened. The girl got an email. It was from a soldier in Iraq. A young, handsome soldier boy, who wanted to be the girl's friend and get her to help in moving a box containing millions of dollars to a safe place. Suddenly the girl had everything she had hoped for: love, appreciation and riches. It was like a fairytale!

Except then the soldier did something the good old prince Charming never did: he said to the girl that she would need to pay a few hundreds of dollars in order to get the box. And the girl, poor that she was, wanted to know where to get such money. The soldier gave her some very nice advice, such as steal from your parents because you can pay them back later. OK, said the girl. Somehow she got the money. And the payment was made. And the soldier boy was very happy. Except for when he soon sent another email.
"I can't receive the money!", he complained.
"Oh dear", replied the girl. "I wonder why is that."
Days turned into weeks and weeks into months. And try as they might, the soldier boy never received his money. Somehow something always failed. It was supposed to be as simple as to send the money today and get the box tomorrow, yet somehow something always went wrong. Do you know why?

Because that girl was me. Now you might be thinking: "but, uh, dude, you're, like, a guy!" Yes, I am that too. I'm an ordinary guy who works as a teacher by day. But by night, as you already know by now, I'm a scambaiter. And the next 20 minutes I am going to tell you about our world where rule number one is that nothing is as it seems.

With that in mind, to let you know a little bit of myself...well, the first rule of baiting is that you shouldn't. As we are dealing with criminals, potentially violent ones, we guard our identities pretty closely. But I can tell you that I have been baiting on and off for some six years now. I was never scammed myself, though our community also have members who have been victims earlier. I was just an ordinary email user who received these scam letters every now and then and thought who would believe in stuff like that. Then, I can't remember how exactly it happened, one day I just stumbled on scambaiting and started reading up the stories written by the baiters. I laughed out loud, it was some of the most hilarious stuff I've ever read. And then one evening I thought I would join this crew and have a go at it myself. There was no specific reason other than a feeling. I felt that this is the right thing to do and this is what I should do. Turns out it was a good feeling to follow, seeing that I'm now here.

Before I start on baiting, let's clear one thing up and make sure we are all on the same page here. I mentioned that we are dealing with potentially violent criminals. Therefore I want to make it clear that I am here only to let you know about us and to raise discussion on the subject. I am not here to turn anyone into a baiter. Actually I would strongly encourage you not to start baiting based solely on this, because it might be dangerous. This is a school assignment, so please, pretty please with a cherry on the top, treat it as such do not rush head long into baiting the first scammer you find after this presentation is over. I can tell you with years of experience that it won't end well. Not for you and not for anyone. Are we clear on that? Cool, then let's begin.

So let's start with the basics: what is baiting? You have been tasked to familiarize yourselves with some background material before this presentation, so I believe you already have some sort of answer to that question. Basically baiting is an exchange of emails and phone calls between a baiter and a scammer. It starts with the scammer approaching the baiter with a scam letter like "help me move millions of dollars to your account, no risk involved". The scammer hopes to find a gullible person he can manipulate into sending him lots of money. Instead he finds a baiter who turns the tables on him and, by appearing gullible and potential victim, instead starts manipulating the scammer. The cat becomes a mouse without even realizing it.

The most basic goal in baiting is to waste the scammers' time and resources. We believe that every moment the scammer spends for writing emails to us is a moment away from writing emails to real victims. Every moment they spend to talking with us on telephone costs them, and therefore give them less money to call real victims. Personally I do that a lot, because it's a simple yet effective way of wasting their resources. And it doesn't always need to be just straight out letting them talk, but I, like many baiters, also have a collection of some hilarious recordings in which I have assumed different, absurd roles to confuse the scammers. Baiting is what you make it, and since I love acting and improvizing in real life too, I have found this to be my cup of tea.

Now you may still ask what's the point. Writing an email doesn't take that long, right? Making a call costs, but it doesn't waste that much time. That's true. One baiter perhaps does not make a difference alone. But when there can be dozen of us communicating with one scammer, it's starting to become a chore for him. That's why it is important to realize that baiting is also much about community: when we work together, we can make a difference.

We call this type of simple time wasting "straight baiting", where the idea is simply to imitate a normal victim. You may have also heard of different kinds of baits. There are, for example, ones that make the scammers travel long distances hoping they will get paid, or baits that involve the scammers getting tattoos. These are special occasions and celebrated in the baiter community because they obviously require lots of work and waste much more of the scammers' resources. Now in case you are thinking of becoming a baiter, I just want to stress that these types of things do not happen every day or with every bait. They often involve co-operation between several baiters and require a lot of work and patience from them. Many people come to us after reading these baits and think that every bait is like this. They are wrong and they get disappointed. The good old straight baiting is still what the majority of baiting is, but it is heard of more rarely because it is not as flashy. To be a baiter for a long time, you pretty much need to be a realist.

To say a word about our enemies, the scammers, you all by now know them already so I probably do not need to tell you that they are bad guys. Sure, you might think who would be stupid enough to believe them and send them money. I can answer that: thousands of people every year all over the world and from all walks of life. The scammers might appear clueless, but they are people who get their living from cheating other people. What is often mistaken for stupidity is actually a cultural difference. One of the worst mistakes a baiter can make is to think the scammers are stupid. Another fatal mistake would be thinking they are harmless: the scammers have caused financial losses, break ups of relationships, even suicides and they have been known to murder victims who have travelled to meet them. People often say that the victims are stupid and deserve their fate. But ask yourself: does someone really deserve to be murdered? Seriously?

Some also like to say that scammers are only poor people trying to make a living. If this was a full lenght lecture, I would show you plenty of evidence of the contrary. But since this is a 20 minute online presentation, I will instead put it this way: if these guys are poor as dirt, how come they are willing to cheat people who are supposedly even worse off than they themselves? Shouldn't they, out of all people, feel compassion for those having hardships in their lives, knowing them firsthand themselves? Baiters have tried every character you might imagine: a child, a sick pensioner having to choose between buying medicine and food, an invalid maimed in a war. I repeat: every character you might imagine. And there has always been a scammer to try scamming money from them. They even give helpful advice such as steal from others or take loan or sell your golden retriever. Would poor people only trying to make a living also automatically resort to being completely immoral? Is the lack of money and other opportunities really their first and foremost reason for doing this?

Well, you might also ask if baiters are necessary. Why not let the authorities take care of things? I'm probably speaking for all the baiters out there when I say that would be ideal. In a dream world all the scammers would be caught, put behind the bars and their scams would end forever. The baiters could go do something else. But think for a while: when was the last time you saw a news article stating an internet scammer was arrested? If they could be arrested easily, why would there always be new ones? Why do the scams continue? The fact is that while the authorities try their best, they can't end scams. And neither can we baiters, but we certainly can do our best. For example, we operate a sister site called Scamwarners that specializes in dealing with real victims of the scammers. Also, the authorities can't waste their time on wasting the scammers' time, because they need to use that time for trying to arrest them. We, on the other hand, can. We are not competing with the authorities in any way: we are complementing each other and co-operating whenever possible. Baiter actions have also led to scammers being arrested, which should speak volumes about our potential. But to achieve this potential, we need to be organized. Therefore I stress again: if you want to be a baiter, be a part of a baiter community. Don't go solo. You will be much more efficient with the help of fellow baiters.

Since I have now told you what baiting is, let's also briefly discuss what baiting is not. The fact is that there are many misconceptions of baiting. Not only is it a controversial subject, but people sometimes come to us with ideas that are just plain wrong. Therefore let's try to clear up some of those next.

As I said regarding those baits where the scammers travel or take a tattoo, people come to us thinking baiting is all about those. They think baiting is glorious: the world is your oyster and the scammers will do anything you ever want. It's completely opposite. You may bait for years without ever having a bait like that. And you are still not a poor baiter: just a baiter who specializes in something else. We need baiters of all specializations. Some arrange travels, some hunt and close down fraudulent websites, some bait straight et cetera. Baiting is not glorious. Baiting is team work and most people outside the baiting community will never hear of your efforts. If you want personal glory, fame and admiration from the others you will do much better by playing soccer or baseball. If you want to be a baiter, you must be able to think of the big picture and the team first.

Second, I'm saying this for the millionth time now because it's important, baiting is not safe. Baiting is not a game. It's playing with fire, and you might get burned if you are not careful. Again, playing soccer or baseball is much easier in this regard. We are dealing with criminals who have been known to murder and each one of us has to take that seriously. Well you might say so what, the scammer is in a far away country and not in where I live. You would be wrong there. There are scammers all around the world and your scammer, or someone he knows, might live right next to you. Would you want to take that risk? The first things every new baiter learns in our community are how to protect your safety. That's another reason for why you want to be part of a baiting community instead of doing this alone. When your own life might be on the line, you do not want to learn by trial and error.

Third, sometimes we hear that baiters are racists. We hear that we are taking advantage of poor Africans. As a baiter I really do not know what to say to that. As scammers come from all over the world, how are we going to choose them based on skin color? Why would we even do so? It would make no sense. We bait scammers, not any specific people. If you tried to scam us, we would bait you. Simple as that. What I can say about our community, however, is that anyone showing open racism is not welcome with us. People have been banned from the forums for being racists because those guys are in a completely wrong place with us. Racism cannot be a motivation for a baiter.

Since I brought up racism, let's talk about the ethics last before the questions. Baiters are often called "vigilantes", and I suppose we fit that description in its basic definition. However, I would say that there is a difference between us and them. Vigilante is someone who takes justice in his or her own hands and executes it alone. We baiters, on the other hand, are an organized community with rules and morals. We discuss and ponder the ethics of what we do. There are times when we are ready, even eager to say stop right there. I would say that puts a step ahead of your average vigilante.

Our community has certain hard rules that every baiter with us must adhere to, and they will be enforced if necessary. One of the most important ones is the "ITP", which stands for innocent third party rule. We may do almost what we want to the scammers, but we never involve anyone else in it. We do not accept giving out addresses or phone numbers of real people or some other way involving them in our baits. Another hard rule is cash. In the past baiters have managed to fool their scammers into paying them money. Nowadays we do not accept cash baiting. We also do not accept hacking or other illegal activity. Some might say it would make us more effective if we could monitor the scammers' emails, but we simply do not do that or accept anyone in our community doing it.

Despite of having some hard rules, we are still not an army. In the end every baiter acts according to his or her own conscience and takes responsibility for it. Some people, for example, might be religious and do not want to involve religion in their baits. That is fine and their choice. Some people do not feel comfortable with sending scammers to places where they might get hurt. Again, perfectly alright. As I said before, we need all kinds of people, as long as they adhere to the few hard rules we have. I know that I have had my own disagreements with the community and voiced them too. For instance, I remember once when a fellow baiter managed to send a scammer to a place where he might have died. Some objected already to that. I did not object to that, but I objected to some, mostly brand new members of our community actively wishing the scammer's death and encouraging causing it. I felt that it went too far. If a scammer caused his own death during one of these journeys, I personally would not shed a tear. But I thought and still think that actively wishing for someone's death is not something the baiter community should be known for. Seeing that we are still not, it seems I was not entirely in the wrong company there.

Regarding religion in general, we do not have any specific line for that. Baiters are an international community, so we have members from all walks of life. We accept people as long as they do their best to fit in our community and are capable of teamwork. However the downside, if you want to call it that, is that no one probably is going to discuss religion with you like on many other forums. If you are used to the Internet forums where people argue over religion and politics, you leave that at the door when you come to us. We do not have a single thread in our forums devoted to presidential elections, religions, or other such heated topics. Our community is about teamwork for a common goal and we have our hands full with that. The Internet is full of forums for discussing religion and politics if one feels inclined to do so, so we leave it to those forums.

So: we have now covered in 20 minutes some basics of the baiting, but as I said in the beginning, this was not meant as a starting baiters' handbook. Rather I have tried giving you a glimpse of who we are and what we are doing. And I stress that it's a glimpse. Most people don't know about us at all, and most of you likely won't need to know more than this about us. The fact is that people come to us. Not the other way around. We don't run around in public events advertising ourselves. If someone approaches us and asks for a presentation like this, then sure, we'll be happy to help. But otherwise we are content with doing what we do, doing it quietly, doing it efficiently and, I dare say, being very good at it. As the proverb goes, hard work is its own reward. For us that's certainly the bottomline.

The students also had time for questions and made some very good ones. Below are some questions they had written before the event, so you can get an idea of what we were talking about, but we didn't cover all these topics. I'm still looking into answering some of these questions and statements later by email, but right now it's just the questions in another wall of text.

Quote:

What does scam baiting say about the character of those that scam bait?

Are scam baiters official law enforcement with the authority to arrest those that are found guilty of scam baiting?

Is there any electronic software that exists or that is being made that can detect possible scam baiting?

Scambaiting doesn't seem like a job that is part of official law enforcement, so is it even legal for scambaiters to do what they do?

What do scambaiters do to the scammers after they have caught them? (Besides pranking them). Do they turn the scammers over to law enforcement?

How do scammers get people's email addresses in the first place?

Are scambaiters punished? It seems like they are doing roughly the same thing as scammers because it mentioned several times that scambaiting was a hobby. They just scam a more focused group.

What kind of involvement does law enforcement have regarding scamming?

What happens after the scambaiter bates the scammer? After reading the script of the scambaiter who scammed the scammer for wood carvings, it seems like the scambaither just let 'John' disappear after scamming him. How is this helping matters?

Are there really people stupid enough out there to provide their bank account info like that to scammers?

Why do we not just create a branch of official government law enforcement to handle this instead of letting people do it as a hobby?

Is scamming a crime, and if so, what is the punishment for it here in the US?

Are there safer alternatives to scam baiting?

Do scambaiters turn the scammers over to the authorities?

What is the craziest thing you were able to get a scammer to do?

Is there possibly a less dangerous way that scammers could be caught?

Is there a way that the general population could be educated about scamming so that they will not be caught by it?

Are there certain characteristics that people who are scammers or scambaiters tend to have across the board?

Is scambaiting effective enough to outweigh the possible dangers?

What potential dangers do scambaiting allow?

What are some effective techniques that scambaiters use?

Is scamming doing anything actually illegal if people do not fall for it?

How often do people actually fall for scam baiting?

How prevalent is scam baiting in the US?

How is scamming (or stealing from an innocent victim) any different than a regular robber who might rob a bank? Shouldn't both be punished the same way?

Can scam-baiting be a job?

How can scam-baiters evaluate whether the scammer is fake or just an actual person seriously seeking a business proposal? Can't it be a gamble at times?

How can scammers collect the people's information to trick them?

Why do people fall for scams?

This approach is not okay, because two wrongs do not make a right. Using wrong tactics to catch the scammers makes you just as bad as them.

The scammers need to be caught, can this be done by not hurting the scammer in any way?

The segment where they made a tracker go to Africa and tell him that his mother died is awful. Many people do bad things to get money, and they shouldn't be treated that way. What is a good way to get them in trouble, but not hurt them unnecessarily?

How do scam baiters originally get the email of the scammers? Do they wait to be emailed or look for people that have been emailed?

After messing with the scammer, what is done with them?

How do scammbaiters make money? Is this their job or is it simply a hobby?
How many people give scammers their bank account information?

If your going to try to trick someone out of their life savings doesn't that open you up to any crap that happens to you.

We shouldn't consider scam-baiting an effective enforcement against scamming. However it is really funny.

What is the end goal of a scam baiter

Are the scambaiters not using practically the same techniques on the scammers that the scammers are using on innocent victims?

Should regulations be put on scammbaiting?

Is there any sort of legislation pertaining to scambaiting? Is any being considered?

What's the worst that's ever happened to a scambaiter? How often is their cover blown?

I see what you're saying about the scambaiters going overboard occasionally, but in the case of the Hollywood stuntman audition, it isn't like the scammer was surprised that jumping off of a two-story building resulted in pain. He knew it was a bad idea, but nevertheless he shouted "I am the Hollywood stunt-man who makes Eastwood look so fine," and then proceeded to jump off the roof because he thought there would be a payoff. On the other hand, the scambaiters seem to be joining the scammers in their deception. I know they have good intentions (JUSTICE), I'm just not sure that justifies their means (INJUSTICE).

How can we make this more of a universal movement?

Why are there so many in Nigeria of all places?

Is this such a widespread problem that we should be dedicating large amounts of people toward stopping it?

The scams that were given as examples didn't seem to be attempts that most people would fall for. What percentage of people who are sent these kinds of scams actually end up falling for them and sending these people money?

Do these scambaiters succeed in deterring scammers from continuing their "occupation" or are they simply fueling the fire?

How can we detect and report these people when they email or contact us?

As technology advances are the scammers advancing or is the advancing in technology foiling the scammers.

Which country generates the most scammers?

If people have become more aware to scams over the years, has (sucessful) scamming gone down significantly? If so, how much has it gone down?

What is the best prank you have ever pulled on a scammer that has actually gone through?

Can you seek legal action against scammers besides just reporting fraud accounts to banks? If so, what can you do?

If you are able to withhold all personal information and able to protect your IP address, what other dangers can a scam baiter face?

How dangerous is scambaiting for the baiter?
Has scambaiting ever helped catch the scammer?

Is the punishment inflicted on scammers by the scambaiters worse than the punishment they would have gotten if they were caught and tried in and american court of law?

Have you received any threats to your life as a result of scambating?

What are some of the signs of email scams?

If you are caught in an email scam, what is the best way to get out of one?

Are there any legal steps in place to keep anything bad from happening to people acting as scambait.

What happens if someone who is attempting to stop the crime of scamming commits a crime themselves? Are they exempted from punishment? Why or why not? Does the act of doing something wrong to achieve a good outcome make it okay?

Do scambaiters keep scammers off for good or simply trick them?

Do the scambaiters themselves think this is morally okay?

Do scambaiters find their job fun?

Is scambaiting really very effective? Do the scammers ever figure things out or are they as gullible as they seem?

After a scammer is fooled into sending information to the scambaiter, does the scambaiter just laugh and find another scammer to mess with or are the proper authorities involved?

How dramatic does a scambaiter's life change?

Do scambaiters view themselves as a form of 'underground justice league'? AKA, do they see this as fighting for justice or for themselves?

Do they ever reveal anything even remotely personal to the scammers in order to make the scambaiting more authentic?

Should scambaiters be technically inducted into the government as they are attempting to help the citizens of America and are trying to function under the law, outside the law?

All in all, this was pretty awesome experience, but I'm really not expecting us to have a surge of new membership soon, because I was asked specifically not to refer to any forum (I did manage to slip in a reference to Scamwarners, though). If anyone has any awesome insight to those questions, I'm sure it would be appreciated once I email them back to the teacher. And if anyone has rotten tomatoes, now is the time to start throwing.

[Ducks and covers]

Edit on 1st October: Thanks for all the answers, folks. I have submitted the combined document to NCTeacher today since almost a week has passed and the thread has started sinking. I don't know if there will be anymore updates to this thread otherwise, but a line must be drawn somewhere and I thought this was a good time to do it. Sorry for everyone who doesn't read this edit and spends time answering all the questions.

[Ducks and covers again]

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:05 pm

Well done, Duckling! clapping

I like this question:

Quote:

Are there certain characteristics that people who are scammers or scambaiters tend to have across the board?

I'm chewing that one over for a while. Wink

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:21 pm

Thanks for posting this - it's a really delicate balance in presenting scambaiting to such an audience.

I was tempted to pick a couple of the questions and comment on them in an attempt to be amusing, but looking at them some more, although some of them may come across as naive it seems like you've been very successful in getting them thinking from all sorts of different angles about the issues involved.

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:29 pm

^^
I had nothing to do with those questions. The teacher prepared them some material on baiting before the forum, and the questions are based on that material. It included mostly well known baits such as Shiver's Dead Parrot, the unknown stuntman and a carving bait. One of the reasons for why I stressed the straight baiting's prevalence in the hobby so much was because I didn't want them thinking that baiting is all about trophies.

As for answering questions, please do! I'm writing some replies to them at the moment, but any insight is certainly welcome and it'll be much better if I'm not going to act as the only voice of the community here. I already did that all too much in my presentation, so I'll be sure to add your input to the question in...uh, question, I guess?

And nothing wrong in being amusing. I made them laugh too, so why couldn't you.

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:09 pm

Duckling-you did an amazing job which requires striking a balance between explaining what we do and why without recruiting and letting the kids know that this is not a joke. I assume since you are a teacher in RL you've had a lot of experience with teenage enthusiasm-it's not easy to discourage.

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:52 pm

Actually, having been a mentor in Eater in my previous life made it much easier. Most of these students likely won't become baiters, and as I said, I was not there to recruit them. I wanted to give a realistic picture, some might perhaps even say overly pessimistic, to avoid having them running off on their own and start baiting without any concerns for safety or what baiting is about. Having met lots of new and enthusiastic baiters in the past was an asset there.

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:15 pm

Well done your presentation was well put and had the right balance.

The questions that they have put forward are thought provoking Exclamation

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:30 pm

Good presentation. We could turn the list of questions into a game too. I'll take the first question on the list:

Quote:

What does scam baiting say about the character of those that scam bait?

If the Baiter is a person who is willing to help people they'll never meet and probably never get a "Thank You" from and actually pay money out of their pocket to do so, I think it says a lot about who we are as people. We work within the law and within a code of ethics unlike the scammers who can and will use anything they can get their grubby mitts on to steal money with. As with any cross-section of People, there are probably some that would be considered a bad element within the Baiter community.

Who wants question #2?

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:15 pm

I'll take a stab at it, my morning is dull. Use what you like, discard what you don't (I won't take offense!).

What does scam baiting say about the character of those that scam bait?
- We're concerned for those who are either current or potential victims and our main focus is wasting the scammer's time (if they're talking to me, they're NOT stealing someone's pension) and to close down essential scamming tools like fake web sites, bank accounts, etc.

Are scam baiters official law enforcement with the authority to arrest those that are found guilty of scam baiting?
- Not at all.

Is there any electronic software that exists or that is being made that can detect possible scam baiting?
- Not that I'm aware of. Our IP addresses are not visible and we use no personal information. Scambaiting is anonymous.

Scambaiting doesn't seem like a job that is part of official law enforcement, so is it even legal for scambaiters to do what they do?
- It is not legal and some are caught and prosecuted from time to time. There appears to be little interest in chasing them down in many of the countries where they operate.

What do scambaiters do to the scammers after they have caught them? (Besides pranking them). Do they turn the scammers over to law enforcement?
- Rarely, as there is often little that law enforcement can do. Also, if the scam bait is done well, the scammer is often unaware that he's been baited (even when his bank account has been closed or his web site is gone).

How do scammers get people's email addresses in the first place?
- There are many sites that are constructed in such a way as to make stealing addresses fairly simple. Also, phishing routines can yield an entire address list if successful.

Are scambaiters punished? It seems like they are doing roughly the same thing as scammers because it mentioned several times that scambaiting was a hobby. They just scam a more focused group.
- Not that I'm aware of. We are NOT "doing roughly the same thing" as scammers are blatantly attempting to steal via advance fee fraud while scambaiters are simply making that as difficult as possible. We are breaking no laws in any way and do not scam the scammers.

What kind of involvement does law enforcement have regarding scamming?
- Very little most of the time, although there is an occasional arrest.

What happens after the scambaiter bates the scammer? After reading the script of the scambaiter who scammed the scammer for wood carvings, it seems like the scambaither just let 'John' disappear after scamming him. How is this helping matters?
- If the scambait winds down in some way, the scambaiter may indeed just disappear. However, he may have left in his wake a scammer that wasted many, many hours and had his scamming routines disrupted by the closing of bank accounts, the closing of websites and having his information posted on sites that warn of their activitiy.

Are there really people stupid enough out there to provide their bank account info like that to scammers?
- Absolutely, although account information is not their main focus. The scammer is most interested in having money sent directly to them via Western Union or a similar service that, once the money is delivered, allows them to avoid any tracing of the transaction.

Why do we not just create a branch of official government law enforcement to handle this instead of letting people do it as a hobby?
- That would be a wonderful thing, but given that most of the activity is from outside the victim's country, very difficult to use to any level of measurable success.

Is scamming a crime, and if so, what is the punishment for it here in the US?
- That depends on many factors, however large fines and long jail sentences have been levied in cases that involve large amounts of money.

Are there safer alternatives to scam baiting?
- If done with anonymity, scam baiting is completely safe.

Do scambaiters turn the scammers over to the authorities?
- If possible, yes, but that opportunity is extremely rare.

What is the craziest thing you were able to get a scammer to do?
- For me, that would involve multiple trips to multiple airports throughout Nigeria (where he always seemed to just miss me) and convincing a scammer that he was about to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sadly, he was not able to get it. Other scambaiters have managed to have scammers pose for bizarre and comical photos, travel thousands of very expensive miles, the list is long and often entertaining.

Is there possibly a less dangerous way that scammers could be caught?
- They seldom are, unfortunately.

Is there a way that the general population could be educated about scamming so that they will not be caught by it?
- Yes, there are several sites that describe the scams, the main ones being scamwarners. com and 419eater.com.

Are there certain characteristics that people who are scammers or scambaiters tend to have across the board?
- A somewhat twisted sense of humor, a level of anger and disgust at those who prey upon the innocent, a bit of free time to learn the craft and a willingness to share information to better complicate the scammers' work.

Is scambaiting effective enough to outweigh the possible dangers?
- Given the anonymity of scambaiting, the danger is virtually non-existent.

What potential dangers do scambaiting allow?
- As long as it is done anonymously, none at all.

What are some effective techniques that scambaiters use?
- Misdirection, getting the scammers off their scripts, adding multiple fictional characters to the confusing situation, the list is endless and only limited by the creativity of the scam baiter as well as their goal (closure of bank accounts, web sites, etc.).

Is scamming doing anything actually illegal if people do not fall for it?
- Yes, attempted advance fee fraud is illegal.

How often do people actually fall for scam baiting?
- Impossible to say as we don't know how many victims remain silent out of embarrassment or not being aware that they are being scammed.

How prevalent is scam baiting in the US?
- Also impossible to say as there is no central communication for scam baioting. The larges community, 419eater.com, has tens of thousands of registered users, but there is no way to measure how many are actively scam baiting.

How is scamming (or stealing from an innocent victim) any different than a regular robber who might rob a bank? Shouldn't both be punished the same way?
- It is very similar and yes, we believe it should be treated as such.

Can scam-baiting be a job?
- No, but there are many of us who would sign up for it if it was.

How can scam-baiters evaluate whether the scammer is fake or just an actual person seriously seeking a business proposal? Can't it be a gamble at times?
- It is painfully obvious nearly all of the time and the formats of the scams are often identical. In those cases where it's not evident early on, at some point the demand for money will come and that's when you know.

How can scammers collect the people's information to trick them?
- It's very simple to find email addresses in today's internet environment.

Why do people fall for scams?
- For some, it is the promise of riches (lottery or inheritance scams), the desire to help an innocent victim (scams involving people in supposed dire situations), loneliness that is taken advantage of (scammers using online dating services to request money for some sort of travel or assistance), the list is long.

This approach is not okay, because two wrongs do not make a right. Using wrong tactics to catch the scammers makes you just as bad as them. \
- In this situation, what exactly is wrong? Scambaiters take no money from the scammers. Our efforts simply slow their ability to commit a crime or keep them occupied is such a way as to protect others. There is no "second wrong" in this at all.

The scammers need to be caught, can this be done by not hurting the scammer in any way?
- Unfortunately, no.

The segment where they made a tracker go to Africa and tell him that his mother died is awful. Many people do bad things to get money, and they shouldn't be treated that way. What is a good way to get them in trouble, but not hurt them unnecessarily?
- Costing them money and valuable time is the most effective way to make their lives difficult. And before you begin to sympathize with the scammers, remember that they will do anything to get paid. These are not "poor souls" scraping for a living, they are professional criminals who have shown many times over that they would happily destroy the life of a victim if it will mean a larger take for them. They will encourage their victims to steal from their relatives, some have even suggested that female victims resort to prostitution to get the money needed; these are not people worthy of pity.

How do scam baiters originally get the email of the scammers? Do they wait to be emailed or look for people that have been emailed?
- Pretty much every email inbox will have these scams in some form. Those of us who receive them in large quantities happily share them with other scam baiters.

After messing with the scammer, what is done with them?
- In most cases, they are dropped once they begin to suspect that there is something amiss, however they can also be passed of to another scam baiter to start the entire process over again.

How do scammbaiters make money? Is this their job or is it simply a hobby?
- There is no money made, it is simply an effort to fight this sort of crime in any way we can .

How many people give scammers their bank account information?
- This is impossible to know, however account information is not their goal in most cases. They're looking for cash to be sent their way, nothing more.

If your going to try to trick someone out of their life savings doesn't that open you up to any crap that happens to you.
- Absolutely.

We shouldn't consider scam-baiting an effective enforcement against scamming. However it is really funny.
- Enforcement? Not at all. Scam baiting is more of a vigilante effort to limit the effectiveness of the scammers. And yes, it can be very, very funny.

What is the end goal of a scam baiter
- There are many, depending on the scam baiters available time and their individual style. My focus is on closing bank accounts that are used for criminal activity, others go after web sites. There are several different ways to make a scammer's life difficult.

Are the scambaiters not using practically the same techniques on the scammers that the scammers are using on innocent victims?
- Not all. We are attempting to prevent a crime and committing none.

Should regulations be put on scammbaiting?
- This would be difficult if not impossible to define and it would be shocking if any governing body would put any time or effort into it.

Is there any sort of legislation pertaining to scambaiting? Is any being considered?
- No and no.

What's the worst that's ever happened to a scambaiter? How often is their cover blown?
- From time to time they are indeed discovered, but the most serious consequences are some long, profane, ranting emails that are often very funny.

I see what you're saying about the scambaiters going overboard occasionally, but in the case of the Hollywood stuntman audition, it isn't like the scammer was surprised that jumping off of a two-story building resulted in pain. He knew it was a bad idea, but nevertheless he shouted "I am the Hollywood stunt-man who makes Eastwood look so fine," and then proceeded to jump off the roof because he thought there would be a payoff. On the other hand, the scambaiters seem to be joining the scammers in their deception. I know they have good intentions (JUSTICE), I'm just not sure that justifies their means (INJUSTICE).
- We are not committing any crime, we are not stealing any money, we gain nothing from scambaiting but the knowledge that we have made this particular crime difficult. Our hope is that, through our efforts, we may have saved someone from becoming a victim by either wasting the scammer's time such that they miss an opportunity or by effectively warning someone who would have been otherwise duped. There is no "injustice" on our efforts.

How can we make this more of a universal movement?
- Spread the word, alert people about scamwarners.com. let your local news media know about these kind of scams (they often run cautionary pieces), communicate, communicate, communicate.

Why are there so many in Nigeria of all places?
- It appears that there is little or no effort being made by law enforcement to combat these crimes. Corruption? Possibly. A little piece of the action to look the other way? Could be.

Is this such a widespread problem that we should be dedicating large amounts of people toward stopping it?
- That's exactly what we're attempting to do.

The scams that were given as examples didn't seem to be attempts that most people would fall for. What percentage of people who are sent these kinds of scams actually end up falling for them and sending these people money?
- As for percentages, there's no way to tell. However, the estimated amount of money stolen via advanced fee fraud is estimated to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars anually.

Do these scambaiters succeed in deterring scammers from continuing their "occupation" or are they simply fueling the fire?
- Deter? Possible but not probable. Fueling the fire? Not at all. These are criminals who are going to operate whether they are baited or not. We just make it more difficult.

How can we detect and report these people when they email or contact us?
- Please go to scamwarners.com for information on this.

As technology advances are the scammers advancing or is the advancing in technology foiling the scammers.
- Given that the major email providers are effectively intercepting nearly all of these scam emails and relegating them to the "spam" folders of their users, the technology may indeed be winning. That said, the ability to communicate anonymously in nearly every conceivable online medium does work to the scammers' advantage.

Which country generates the most scammers?
- Nigeria, however you can see scams located in nearly every country in the world that has unrestricted internet access.

If people have become more aware to scams over the years, has (sucessful) scamming gone down significantly? If so, how much has it gone down?
- This is impossible to say as the data is spotty and many victims are either unaware they've been scammed or too embarrassed to report it.

What is the best prank you have ever pulled on a scammer that has actually gone through?
- For me, that would be stringing a scammer along for over two years, wasting countless hours of his time, closing over a dozen bank accounts, and sending him on wild goose chases from airport to airport in an attempt to meet me in person. In addition, he also believed that a "tough guy" had been sent to find and punish him, causing a great deal of hilarity.

Can you seek legal action against scammers besides just reporting fraud accounts to banks? If so, what can you do?
- Very little, unfortunatley.

If you are able to withhold all personal information and able to protect your IP address, what other dangers can a scam baiter face?
- Very few if any,

How dangerous is scambaiting for the baiter?
- Not at all.

Has scambaiting ever helped catch the scammer?
- Yes, but it's exceedingly rare.

Is the punishment inflicted on scammers by the scambaiters worse than the punishment they would have gotten if they were caught and tried in and american court of law?
- No, we are only a deterrent.

Have you received any threats to your life as a result of scambating?
- Often. Of course, since my identity was completely untraceable, they meant very little. There are actually scammers who insist they have been HIRED to kill you and demand payment to save your life. Of course, they have no idea who or where you are and are simply looking for a quick payday.

What are some of the signs of email scams?
- The promise of surprise riches with a need for some sort of payment to receive it, a "purchase" where the "buyer" will send a check larger than the sale price and ask for the excess to be sent elsewhere, an email that appears to be from a friend who is stranded in a foreign country, an appeal from a soldier overseas who has millions that were found as part of a battle in a foreign country, the list goes on. The bottom line is simple: if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

If you are caught in an email scam, what is the best way to get out of one?
- Drop all communication immediately as the scammer has your real life information.

Are there any legal steps in place to keep anything bad from happening to people acting as scambait.
- No.

What happens if someone who is attempting to stop the crime of scamming commits a crime themselves? Are they exempted from punishment? Why or why not? Does the act of doing something wrong to achieve a good outcome make it okay?
- We commit no crimes so this is not an issue.

Do scambaiters keep scammers off for good or simply trick them?
- Probably not, we just make their efforts more difficult.

Do the scambaiters themselves think this is morally okay?
- Most certainly. We are battling a massive criminal effort while committing no crimes ourselves and potentially saving innocent victims from suffering loss.

Do scambaiters find their job fun?
- Yes, we do. Many scammers are hilarious.

Is scambaiting really very effective? Do the scammers ever figure things out or are they as gullible as they seem?
- They sometimes discover they've been had, however most are so focused on the money dangled in front of them that they will do nearly anything to get paid.

After a scammer is fooled into sending information to the scambaiter, does the scambaiter just laugh and find another scammer to mess with or are the proper authorities involved?
- We mostly bait and move on as there is little that can be done by law enforcement.

How dramatic does a scambaiter's life change?
- Not dramatically in any way. There's a sense of accomplishment associated with combating an international crime, the scambaits are often incredibly funny and there are friendships made with other scambaiters who work together to be as effective as possible.

Do scambaiters view themselves as a form of 'underground justice league'? AKA, do they see this as fighting for justice or for themselves?
- We're fighting crime, pure and simple.

Do they ever reveal anything even remotely personal to the scammers in order to make the scambaiting more authentic?
- Yes, but it must be taken with a liberal grain of salt. Scammers lie. Often. Most of the time, actually.

Should scambaiters be technically inducted into the government as they are attempting to help the citizens of America and are trying to function under the law, outside the law?
- It would be fun, but not realistic.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 30 Aug 2013 Posts: 4

Hi All,

I'm "The Teacher".

Thanks again to Bunny for doing such an awesome job! The students really got into the subject and were very interested. The way we structure the class, they will also be discussing the topic in smaller groups where hopefully they will argue with each other over various aspects of the presentation. I'll ask the teachers who facilitate this dialog to pass anything along that I can share with you.

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:35 pm

Nicely Done, Duckling Thumbs up

*** BANNED *** Joined: 26 Jul 2012 Posts: 1123

One question struck me and I will be going back through them all:

Can scam-baiting be a job?

Yes and no, mostly no. Where it does become a job is in a field called IT Security. Sometimes many of the security analysts have to 'bait' their way into some of the darker holes of the internet to get their own information on fraud and the means in which they are being deployed. This is not a niche market of dealing with only '419' / advanced fee fraud type scams though. This can also include working banking and wire fraud, as well as working into carding and black hat hacker rings. I guess the closest comparison would be like being an undercover cop who now works as a PI or security contractor. This is not something most baiters cover however as it takes a certain amount of expertise to even go into these areas and situations safely. The job opportunities in this field are also very hard to come by hence the 'mostly no' bit above.

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:56 am

@Duckling - Excellent work!

Welcome NCTeacher and Thank you for the interesting Curriculum. If I had teachers like you when I was in my formative years, I might actually know what I wanted to do for a living by now. Oh well back to the Salt Mines....

This particular question intrigued me:

Quote:

What is the end goal of a scam baiter

The answer to this is not simple as every Baiter will give a different answer. Yes many will be similar but the motivations will vary from plain old fun to full out vindictiveness plus any manner of answer in between. Personally my number one goal is to teach others how to waste a Scammer’s time and resources while having a bit of fun along the way. With this particular aim in mind, I feel that I might be making the world a better place one Bait at a time.

Any other takers on the 'Eternal' Question?

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:37 am

Hello NCTeacher and welcome,

You've got them thinking, well done indeed. Duckling, you're awesome!

As for why I do this on a volunteer basis -- because I hope somebody would be looking out for me when I didn't know what was up. Trust pays forward.

I get myself between a scammer/fake site every chance I can, in the hope that I'm between the scammer and a potential victim.

I hope this makes sense. I'm not a violent person, just passionate about keeping people safe.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 30 Aug 2013 Posts: 4

Thanks for the answers, comments.

By the way, mostly what I try to do in the class is give students something they haven't thought about before and challenge them to ask questions an decide what they think about it. What I love about this topic is it gets the students thinking about Justice, fairness, and how/why people can be tricked. In a sense, we tend to turn law enforcement over to the government because we would rather be at the mercy of our community's sense of justice instead of taking our chances with an individual. It's significant to me how much Bunny talked about how baiters work as a team and have developed (and enforce) a set of ethics on what they do. In that way, it's like your evolving towards a law-enforcement culture.

FYI, some of my other recent/upcoming forums are:
- A paranormal researched showing evidence for ghosts
- A panel of formerly homeless panhandlers on how someone should respond to panhandlers
- A Psych test they will participate that explores under what conditions they will cheat
- Is luck Real?
- A woman who was a child during the rise of Nazi Germany asks "would you know if your country was becoming evil?"
- A veterinarian argues that factory farms are often more humane to animals than small farms.

Yes... it does.

-nct

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:08 am

I do what I do because I know that every time I take down a fake site, it has saved someone, somewhere from becoming a victim of fraud. I know that every time I report a compromised bank account, it has hindered the criminals in their money laundering efforts. I know that every time I report a stolen credit card, it has helped restore someone's credit. I know that every time the scammers email me, they are not emailing a real victim.

I have never personally met any of the people I am protecting. They don't know I am protecting them, nor do I want them to know. In fact, I don't even really want to know who they are. But to me, guarding potential victims from up on high is the primary, overriding goal of all my baiting activity. If I have some fun along the way (and I certainly do), even better.

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:28 am

Thanks for all the answers, guys, just keep them coming. I'm thinking at the moment that we will give the thread some time to grow and accumulate the answers. After that I'm going to combine the questions and all the answers to each of them in a single document. The final form is probably going to look something like this:

[Question]

Duckling: [Answer]
Vampiremerchant: [Answer]
Big Al: [Answer]
And so on with as many answers as there are.

I may need to edit out any references to Eater or other baiting communities, but otherwise I'm not going to touch the answers from you. The students know that each of us is an individual (though we likely agree on many things), so they shouldn't be confused even if we contradict each other. Though if something looks confusing, I may need to add an explanatory note to stress this aspect to them again.

I hope this approach is OK for NCTeacher too. Let me know if you have an alternative in mind, and it would indeed be great if you could share with us any follow ups the students come up with later. Thumbs up

Elite Baiter Joined: 10 Mar 2013 Posts: 1486

Quote:

Are there really people stupid enough out there to provide their bank account info like that to scammers?

Yes! Specialy if asked by your bank to check some information. This may be done by tricking you to use a link provided by a scammer that leads to a site that is exact replica of the real site.

And failing that: you never know what you can get just by asking nicely. You just need to ask often enough.

Quote:

Is scambaiting really very effective? Do the scammers ever figure things out or are they as gullible as they seem?

Scambaiting can be effective if enough of it is concentrated on a single scammer. This would result the scammer to change their methods to less optimal but less damaging but even then scammer may just as well change over entirely and be impossible to track. Scammer may figure out that something is wrong and usualy does when bank account doesn't work but rately if ever realy understands what is agains them. This brings up the basic weaknesses of the scammer: 1.) Scammer does it for money and rarely understands why anyone would mess with him for no reason. 2.) Scammer must believe to his own lie. It works, right? Or at least others are doing money with it. This causes the scammer to drop their guard down, otherwise they would turn down actual victims. 3.) Scammer is in it for money. They want that money. Why would anyone promise money to a scammer and lie without reason?

Quote:

Do they ever reveal anything even remotely personal to the scammers in order to make the scambaiting more authentic?

Quite possibly if they are too lazy to fabricate the information. You wouldn't know it ofcource but you can be sure that all information that the scammer can think of helping his scam is being used.

Quote:

Should scambaiters be technically inducted into the government as they are attempting to help the citizens of America and are trying to function under the law, outside the law?

And what goverment is that? This is not a national mater. And anyway goverment oversight would be devastating to creativity this activity demands.

Quote:

Is there a way that the general population could be educated about scamming so that they will not be caught by it?

Welcome to the class!

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:14 am

Since I'm combining these answers together, I have a few requests which would make my job much easier. So pretty please, consider these when answering:

1: Don't make references to Eater. I was specifically asked not to refer to the forums, so I'm going to have to edit them out.

2: Don't use slang. They don't know what "a safari" means.

3: Stay cool, don't get provoked. I'm not going to edit your answers or their tone, but let's remember that these are high school students who have just heard about baiting for the first time and only very briefly. We have all seen some of these questions and sometimes misconceptions in the past, so I suggest we maintain certain degree of professionalism. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 30 Aug 2013 Posts: 4

I like your plan, Duckling. Thanks for the editing.

-nct

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

NCTeacher wrote:

mostly what I try to do in the class is give students something they haven't thought about before and challenge them to ask questions an decide what they think about it

Welcome to Eater. You sound like an awesome teacher, I like the philosophy of independent thought.

I'm curious, what type of school do you teach in? Public, private, private parochial?

Great job Duckling.

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:23 pm

Nice job Duckling. I'm glad this went so well, and glad to see that the trusty alcohol-dartboard selection process is as efficient as ever.

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:24 pm

Welcome NCTeacher -- as an educator myself it's clear that you've got your students thinking broadly about the topic and contributing all sorts of interesting and relevant ideas on the subject - well done!

From my perspective one of the most important aspects of scambaiting is that, by and large it is not carried out by individuals on their own -- but groups of people sharing a common interest. By coming together we can discuss and come to community consensus about many of those core questions the students asked: aspects of ethics, the various potential risks involved, and perhaps most importantly, how to translate scambaiting activities into the public good.

Without working together, it's also impossible to keep up with the scammers: they are constantly adapting their methods in order to attract more victims and to get them to pay out - so comparing notes is an essential part of keeping aware.

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:24 pm

Excellent. The right balance of humour and seriousness - kind of like baiting - congratulations Duckling.

I'll take a pop at this important one:

Quote:

Are there really people stupid enough out there to provide their bank account info like that to scammers?

Firstly it's important not to think of people who are scammed as stupid. That's why baiters refer to them as victims. Which is exactly what they are. Scammers are successful because they prey on the unfortunate, the lonely and the desperate.
They have many ways in which to extract the information they require and often build up levels of trust over weeks or even months before attempting to scam the money.

One of the more recent scams they use is to take information from a victim's facebook page (for example) and use it to send an email to a relative or friend while pretending to be that person asking them for help because they have been arrested or have lost their wallet etc. The concerned friend/grandmother/sister is duped into sending money or giving bank details.

If you heard from a friend that they were in trouble but you had no way of confirming it with them on the phone or face to face and they kept pleading with you to help them. What would you do?

We need to be aware of the tactics these criminals use and educate ourselves accordingly.

Elite Baiter Joined: 10 Mar 2013 Posts: 1486

^^^ I would like to add an example of a case that should demonstrate the audacity of some scammers:

Parents get an email supposedly from their son that tells that he is kidnapped and ransom demand is included. Parents go to WU office to pay the ransom. WU clerk tells the parents to call their son and confirm that he realy is kidnapped.

Somebody else may wish to correct me on details if needs to...

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