Religion

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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:35 pm

First of all, I just want to say that I am Catholic and don't want to turn this into an anti-religion spiel or a religious debate. All of us baiters probably have different religious backgrounds, and I don't mean to create a divide between us with this discussion. So let's try and leave that out of the mix.

That being said, what is up with lads and their excessive use of religion in their baits? It seems like they are always talking about God in their scams. The thing is, with some of my lads I truly believe they really are religious people. I've had one lad who constantly quotes the Bible. With other lads, I have found them on Facebook and saw their personal information, and read about them being religious people or what not.

I guess my basic question is, how can these lads use religion to try and steal money from innocent people, when they are supposedly religious people themselves? I just don't get it....

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:39 pm

Most of them have a different point of view; "God has provided stupid magas for us so we could make a living out of it."

With the risk of opening a debate I don't want to end up in; but they are far from the only ones that interpret the Bible/Quran/.. in the way it fits best for them.

Well, that's what I think about the matter.

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:53 pm

Hmmm, the lad's religion angle. I heard from somebody scammers have a misconception we mugus are very pious and religious.
Scammers are ANYWHERE in the world.
Mugus/victims are ANYWHERE in the world.
They are trying to find a common bond perhaps. Something in common.
Happens in RL to start a convo. "I'm a person." "You? me too. !" And take it from there. Or they want you to believe they are too religious to commit a crime. One cannot be a scammer if they quote the bible??
My 2 cents. My thoughts on the subject.

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:04 pm

^^^^Brainiac, I agree. That was exactly my thinking too. I originally figured they were just using that to try and form a bond/trust between them and their victims. But then, like I said, I found some of my lads on Facebook and they talked about God and such on their personal profiles (that had no ties to their scamming accounts). It just seems odd to me that someone can be so religious yet find it perfectly okay to steal money from people. I don't mean to insinuate that religious people are perfect, but I just can't fathom using God to do something bad (like steal from innocent people) when you then turn around and want to be God-fearing yourself, or however you want to say it.

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:20 pm

My thoughts:

- Some Lads are genuinely religious. One of my characters is atheist, and some Lads will put their scam on hold while they try to convert her.

- All religious people probably have some behaviours that would cause others to say, 'You call yourself a [insert religion here] and you [insert unexpected practice here]??!!' We tend to justify our own 'aberrations from the dogma', while condemn other people's supposed 'hypocrisy'. I imagine that Lads do the same. It is maybe weird to us that they can ignore condemnations in the Bible or Qur'an of lying and stealing - but it seems to be beyond comprehension to them that anyone in another country can, for example, consider themselves Godly and also have sex outside of marriage, or have same-sex partners. Many cohabiting and gay Christians in some countries, for example, may feel they are still absolutely fine before God. Lads think Oh no, they are not. But they believe that scamming is OK before God. Yet would never dream of cohabiting, and would expect to go to hell for having a gay relationship.

- Lads lie. One Lad I am baiting is Christian to one of my characters, and Muslim to another of them. Another Lad claims he is Christian, and yet appears to be in the internet café all of Sundays. Many Lads are unwilling to disclose their Christian denomination in case, I assume, it conflicts with their victim's. Again, one Lad I baited with two characters, was Anglican to the Anglican one, and Pentecostal to the Pentecostal one.

419Eater is my life Joined: 04 Jul 2009 Posts: 277

This is a paraphrasing of what one scammer sent my dolla-chopper account after getting cheated out of several thousand dollars the "maga" was going to send.

Quote:

God gave me this maga and you want to stand in the way of my blessing!

So it looks like some of them might actually be religious and think God supports their scamming endeavors. God apparently doesn't support dolla-choppers though; they're breaking the scammers' code, or something.

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:42 pm

^^ A quick thought. Branwen said the Lad responded in like kind.
Anglican to the Anglican. Pentecostal to the Pentecostal. My current Lad
He is a chameleon.
I notice he is sweet to the female, dumbs it down for my I.Q. of 90, slight brain-damage charac., and writes "dude" to my surfer. I got a chill when he dropped his mask, when I wrote as a fellow criminal, a dirty crook WIMP I saw the ugly side. Ugh. Which was essentially the real scammer. He dropped the pretense of being a lawyer in London, admitted to being a scammer in Nigeria and was anxious to start making money with the orphans and WIMP modality. He is all things to all people. Mirrors what they write. Adaptable to any situation. A little bit scary. A Lad with
"street smarts". Is this off-topic of religion?

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:51 pm

I personally have no problem with religious people as long as they don't do anything extremist (ie. Fred Phelps and the Westboro church<---Please have that man & his followers locked behind bars, murdered, or sent to mental health institutions!). In other words, thinking that it's all right murder someone because of the religion is unacceptable (and so is trying to turn gays/lesbians straight, by sending them to religious versions of a concentration camp). [/rant]

Now applying to the lads: I find it quite annoying that the lads use "religion" in part of their scamming. It's very hypocritical of them to be religious and then steal somebody's money. But I must say it's fun making them join fake religions: The Church of the Flaming Sword, The Pyramid religion (forgot the name of it!), The Spaghetti monster god, and etc.

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:57 pm

^^^^To KoKo... I'm semi-breaking my own requests here about not turning this into a religious debate, but I will step in on your comment of Fred Phelps. NOBODY takes that guy or the Westboro Baptist Church serious... Anyone and everyone agrees that guy is just plain evil... end rant...

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:05 pm

I always used to assume that religion was just another angle they liked to play, although seeing some of the quotes on here, I'm thinking they do believe in their own twisted version of some religion that bears a passing resemblance to Christianity. Perhaps just their way of justifying what they do to themselves, while in fact their real god is money.
Had one recently who was using the old "rich widow with cancer wanting to give away millions to build churches and help Christian aid charities" script. Although when she found out that my character actually believed some obscure pagan religion, she quickly switched to that, picking up on my character's mentioning of it and quoting them back.
Apparently she hoped I wouldn't notice all the ranting about Christian faith she was piling on thick at the start... Oh well. Rolling Eyes

So yeah. Lads are religious, but they believe in a strange kind of religion, which changes every so often, appears different to different people, has western union outlets as churches, and is also specific to each individual person, so that while it's ok for them to steal from everyone they meet, it is the ultimate sin for another to steal from them...
Sounds almost as crazy as some of the baiter churches I've seen Rolling Eyes

Edit:
@Koko.dk + Bait it up
Just don't get me started on Scientology Wink

lol

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:16 pm

Welcome, Bait It Up!

Everyone sins, religious or not and some sins are more serious than others.

I mean, I love Jesus but I drink a little bit. Wink

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:34 pm

For example in Nigeria, it's common that people celebrate both Muslim and Christian holidays but it usually means they just enjoy the time off. I think that tells something about their religiousity generally. The benefits of religion are this-worldly. One can convert to another religion, if he/she is offered money and/or position. I've seen in Africa how people are invited to churches not to hear how they souls could be saved but how to get healthy and wealthy. If pastors and preachers lie and cheat giving empty promises, they probably don't care to tell people that it's wrong to lie and cheat. And their listeners may really think everything is permitted as long as you achieve something you desire.

Yet I believe there are genuine Christians and Muslims who would never accept scamming activities. They may be a minority in every Christian/Muslim community. Lads belong to the majority who uses religion to their purposes when needed. But they still call themselves a Christian/Muslim like millions of people who never pray, go to church/mosque etc although they mark religious holidays as they can relax, meet family and friends etc. Lads only go much further. But there are also other types of criminals who are more or less the same. Here I'm thinking of the Italian mafia that apparently is connected to the biggest church in the world...

I assume lads would tell they are atheists when in contact with atheist victims/baiter characters, if they knew the concept. The fact is that in many countries it isn't socially acceptable to be an atheist. If you really are an atheist of Christian origin, it's still better to tell you are a Christian if you apply for a visa to a Muslim country and you have to tell what your religion (as it often is the case.) Otherwise you will be regarded as something very weird.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:02 am

I don't think I could put it any better than Branwen has Wink

It may be that they are religious and use the 'eye for an eye' statement and use that as they see fit.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:12 am

I had one recently that was so "religious" that I couldn't resist replying as an unsuitable person, to see how fast he would forget the religious part.
He said...

Quote:

Dear Sir/Ma,
PRAISE ALLAH, THE MOST BENEVOLENT.

I am Mrs Iyesa xxxxxnamed person from Kuwait. I am married to Late
Malam Usman xxxxx of blessed memory who worked with Kuwait embassy in
Sudan for nine years before he died in the year 2008.We were married for
eleven years without a child. He died after a brief illness that lasted
for only four days. Before his death we were both very devoted
muslims.Since his death I too have been battling with both cancer and
fibroid problems.When my late husband was alive he deposited the sum of
$10.5 Million (Ten Million Five hundred thousand U.S. Dollars) with an
oversea security company. Presently,this money is still with the Security
Company. Recently, my Doctor told me that I would not last for the next
Six months due to cancer problem.Though what disturbs me most is my stroke
sickness.

Having known my condition I decided to donate this fund to either a muslem
organisation or devoted muslim individual that will utilize this money the
way I am going to instruct here- in. I want this muslim organisation or
individual to use this money in all sincererity to fund mosques,
orphanages,widows and also propagating the word of ALLAH and to ensure
that the society upholds the views and beliefs of the holy Quran.

The holy Quran emphasized so much on ALLAH'S benevolence and this has
encouraged me to take this bold step. I took this decision because I don't
have any child that will inherit this money and my husband relatives are
new Christians converts and I don't want my husband's hard earned money to
be misused by people I call unbelievers.

I don't want a situation where this money will be used in an unholy
manner. Hence the reason for taking this bold decision. I know that after
death I will be with ALLAH the most beneficient and the most merciful. I
don't need any telephone communication in this regard because of my health
and also the presence of my husband's relatives around me always. I don't
want them to know about this development.

With ALLAH all things are possible. As soon as I receive your reply I
shall give you the contact of the Security Company. I will also issue you
a letter of authority that will prove you as the original-beneficiary of
this fund. I want you and the Muslim community where you reside to always
pray for me. My happiness is that I lived a life of a true devoted muslim
worthy of emulation. Whoever that wants to serve the ALLAH must serve him
in truth and in fairness.

Please always be prayerful all through your life. Any delay in your reply
will give me room in sourcing for a Muslim organisation or a devoted
muslim for this same purpose. Until I hear from you, my dreams will rest
squarely on your shoulders.

May the almighty ALLAH continue to guide and protect you.

Please send to me your reply to: [email protected]

Regards,
Mrs. Iyesa xxxxx

I replied...

Quote:

Dear Mrs Iyesa xxxxx,
I am Reverend Joe xxxof the Church of the SubGenius. This is neither a Muslim organization or a Christian one. As a matter of fact we believe that both christians and muslims are wrong so I guess that you wouldn't want my help.
Reverend Joe

Quote:

Dear Reverend,
Thank you so much for your mail, i like the way you have strong faith on what you believe on.
Am here to let you know that you are the best person to handle this transaction, all i needed is someone that can be able to handle the transaction with good faith and trust of which i know you can do the best i needed.I need your trust and honesty on this transaction and noting more.
All i want you to do is to use the money in helping the poor and the needy in some societies, help the motherless babies, help the orphans and also the widows, most especially those affected by natural disaster in many cities of the world.
I now lay my trust on you and i know you will not fail me.
I have already forwarded your contact email address to the security company where the money is deposited. The company will contact you and let you know on what to do next to make the claims of the money.
Bear it in mind that all the original documents used in depositing the money at first will be changed in your names and favor as the next of kin to the money, and the documents will be sent to you for clearance.
The name of the security company is: Magnum security and Finance Company.
As soon as you hear from the security company, you have to corporate with them and provide with whatever they needed from you to fastening the project.

Thanks, while am waiting to see your mail soonest.

Your sister,
Mrs. Iyesa xxxxx

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:42 am

As a fake lad I have talked about religion, among other things, with some lads. And while it's difficult to generalize, not to mention that I still take everything they say as lies, it seems that the lads are religious, but their idea of religion is a little different.

As I have understood it, many of them have claimed they are Christians, but to be a Christian to them just means they can use the word "God". Whereas "God" to them seems to be some sort of magic fairy from whom they can ask stuff without sacrificing a goat and who, being merciful and all, forgives them when they do stuff they aren't supposed to do. And if he doesn't, there is nothing wrong in going to some other magic fairy to ask stuff from. Lads I have met haven't exactly been monotheists, though they do seem to have this idea that this "God", in Christian sense of the word, is still a little better magic fairy to ask stuff from.

As far as I'm concerned, it's just yet another way for them to justify what they do, no different from all those crappy "revenge from slavery" or "because my goat died yesterday" excuses.

And for what it's worth, I'm religious myself.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:48 am

My two primary baiter personae have very different approaches to religion.

Captain Mal has no religion, and this has confused some Lads. It's as if they can't understand having no faith. From a chat:

Quote:

Lisa: I am always going to keep you in my prayers and one day God will answer this prayer
me: The Corps was my life. The Corps was my family. I gave 18 years to the Corps and my country.
What will you pray for?
I still remember my Corps comrades. Some died in battle; some were invalided home; some quit after Iraw. Most are still serving.
Lisa: For you to be heal from your hearing problem...don't you beleive God can heal you automatically
me: Once you've served, you never see the civilian world in quite the same way again.
And to answer your question; no.
I have no religion.
Lisa: ???
me: Does that surprise you?
Lisa: yeah..lol
me: Why?
Lisa: I am a Christian
me: Fine. That's what you believe.
I don't share it.

On the other hand, Cammy is a devout worshipper of the Norse pantheon. So far no Lad has made a serious attempt to convert her, and several have sought to become Asatruar in one way or another. Even the fervent Cancer victims don't care that she's not Christian.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:07 am

By the time I find this discussion everything of substance has of course already been said...so I´d like to just summarize my POV in one or two sentences:
I see it as a scamming tactic. When a scammer registers on a Christian dating site, indeed many members there give him an "advance trust".
Their babbling about being religious is IMHO just to give them some extra trust to exploit their vics even a little more, because how could they cheat and steal?!
*sigh*

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:56 am

You guys are walking a fine line.

Keep the topic on lads and how twisted they really are and that will be fine. To be honest, I fully expect to see this locked soon. ← that doesn't mean it WILL be so don't use it as an excuse to go overboard.

If the conversation (skimped though it as it is past bed time) maintains it's currant course I don't have a problem with it but I am only one in 13 admins, associates, and mods.

If you want to get technical the board rules are no politics or religion discussed. I understand this is a tough one because many of you would really like to know how lads can be religious and steal at the same time. Also with so much church baiting going on, religion is hard not to factor in.

Carry on but please be careful.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:04 am

For anybody who hasn’t watched Shutter Island yet, this post may contain spoilers, please don’t read

Two reasons in my opinion

Religiosity can add more credibility to their stories

or they are really religious in their own terms, let’s say they believe it’s God’s will to punish the whites for what they did to the blacks, any bullshit that moves the guilt. Like Leonardo DiCaprio from Shutter Island, they create this fantasy where everything is perfect and legitimate and live in denial, religions are just tools to justify their crimes

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:34 am

My 2 cents - Why are scammers overtly-religios, religi-centric?
Well most of the points have been made and could be summed up thus:

Religion = Faith = Trust = Trust from others = get cash from others = Buy stuff = Power = Control over others = get cash from others = ad infinitum

Religion is the crutch of the masses. The masses are generally ignorant and don't have much cash. They want cash, so greed and belivability plays a big part in making these scams work.
The masses believe that god will grant them what they deserve.
By being faithful to god, they think that god will grant them cash. They pray to god for cash etc
When someone comes over as a Religios person who just happens to want to give them cash. They tie this into their own faith generating belief.

So scammers possibly generate more positive cash flow from religios scripts.

What else may contribute to the belivability:

Some Religions ask for large donations from their followers to buy them a place in heaven. This is accepted in many countrys where "Evangelist" and other similar churches are pervelent. Such as in West Africa.
So donating large sums of money to the church is commonplace and thus they may assume this is commonplace elsewhere.

In the U.K we have had a long history of the church abusing it's position in society. The seperation of church and government has not really taken religion out of politics. In a lot of developing counties the church and government are one and the same.
Even in the U.S.A, they may have elected a black president, but tell me the last time they elected an agnostic/athiest president.

Anyways I'm rambling.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:36 pm

Over the years, I have noticed several things about 'religious' Lads.

They regard "God" and religion not as a moral force, but as a kind of Santa Claus who is sure to deliver the goods to them. In other words, there is no need for them to behave in anything resembling a moral fashion to enjoy "God's" munificence. This is closer to juju than Christianity as we know it.

Plus there is the point that if they pose as a Pastor, they think they will come across as more credible. Sadly, having seen the victim figures, they are right about this. Sad

As with everything else with the Lads, it's just a lie.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:59 pm

Lads are religious, some more than others, some not at all. I'd say it's pretty much the same as Westerners. However, there are many that also do believe in animism and some are deathly afraid of black magic and juju.

I love watching a lad freak out when I send him death threats and mention that I have placed a curse on him.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:41 pm

Yeah, they are religious. When I've worked on a cyber cafe here in Brazil, I've managed to get some letters ans stuff that they sent to their families in Africa.

They say they scam, some of they even says they are drug dealing (a lot of them leaves Brazil to UK full of cocaine in stomach), but they feel that nothing of this is wrong to God if they're doing this for living...

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:52 pm

The problem with this thread is that you're trying to pigeon-hole lads using Western standards of Christianity.

You've got to realise that Christianity in Africa is affected and moulded by societies, culture and ethics over there just as it is over here.
And as their societies, culture and ethics are different to ours, some of the results are different.

Comparisons are misleading.

Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:35 pm

Christianity produced the original 'spin doctors' at the Council of Trent, then condemned every deviation, by auto d'fe!

Africa has its own version, that suits Africans, and I can't imagine any western christian changing that. Use it on the lads, but rememebr the juju man too!