Question please.

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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:52 pm

Hello everyone.
Can I ask a question please?
I have just been having a look at the Trophy Room and I thought some of the 'models' looked a bit unhappy and even embarrassed. All well and good if they are the scammers, but what is to stop the real bad men and bullies from forcing innocent people to pose in their place?
If this happens, I cannot help feeling a bit uncomfortable about humiliating people who have done nothing wrong.
Is there an answer or solution to this problem that I do not know about?
Thankyou. XXXXX. (QUACK!)

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:55 pm

aah Ethic's threads....

Read the stickeys, eh? There's one that deals with this sort of subject...

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:57 pm

I would if I knew what the ecky thump a 'sticky' was.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:18 pm

lol, the stickies are so named because they stay at the top of the forum, even when no one posts in them for a while.

The sticky in question is this: http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32877

The ethics of scambaiting. It addresses the idea that the scammers are somehow unhappy to take their picture for our amusement. It does NOT address the idea that they might coerce people into posing FOR them, so I'll leave that up to whoever else has a clever retort (because I doubt they would do that, I feel like they're too lazy, but I have no evidence to back that claim up)

Elite Baiter Joined: 19 Jan 2009 Posts: 1440

"Stickys" are posts containing important information and advice that are kept permanently on top of each forum - they're "stuck" there.

You can find them easily since they're called "Sticky" in bold black letters.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:23 pm

About your question, this the way I look at it:

Real Victims (the ones that really believe these scammers and send them lots of money, often depriving themselves, or getting into debt in the process) may sometimes ask for a 'special photograph'. And if the Lad himself cannot be in it for some reason (because he is the wrong age, or even the wrong sex), then he will get someone else to do it for him. Therefore, this sort of thing will happen whether or not you or I ask for the same sort of thing.

And I think that is his responsibility, not mine.

I look at it like this: if you say to me, 'Hey, Branwen, can you make me a nice form to send my Lad?' and I say, 'Yes, of course!' you have no control over what happens next.

Maybe I make you a nice form.

Or maybe I can't make forms, so I go to my neighbour, who I am much bigger and stronger than, and I hold I knife to their throat, and I say, 'Make me this form - or else!'

Are you wrong in asking for the form?

Or am I wrong in threatening my neighbour?

Do you know in advance whether or not I will make the form myself, or whether I will scare and bully my neighbour into doing it?

We actually take those sort of risks all the time.

But....

... Having said that: if you fear that asking me to make you a form will result in my neighbour feeling the sharp end of my knife - don't ask!

You don't need that form to bait - do something else instead!

Or: take the risk. It is up to you.

If you feel uncomfortable at the possibility of bullying, don't ask your Lad for any 'trophy pics'. If you feel uncomfortable about anything else, don't go there. Do something else instead!

Live within your own ethics. I have mine, but they don't stop me baiting!

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:45 pm

Thankyou for explaining your views which I know are just as valid and important as mine.
However, I have to say that I felt somewhat 'dismissed' when you told me to go 'do something else' if I didn't like anything you said or if I felt concerned about any method of scam baiting.
I put the question because I genuinely felt uneasy and hoped the subject would be debated and I would learn by reading experienced baiters' opinions. I did not expect to be put in my place quite so emphatically.
Now I have to say that I will certainly be discouraged from raising any question or concerns relating to ethics.
Sorry to have asked.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:04 pm

That's not the point Branwen is trying to make. The point is this:
If you feel uneasy about doing anything, then don't do it! There's loads of other stuff you can do to your lad.

As every baiter has his own limits, and these limits vary among baiters, we can't tell you what you should and shouldn't do. That's for you to decide. The only thing we will tell you not to do is cashbaiting.

That said, so what if the lad uses someone else to hold his sign? The guy holding the sign is still not doing this for fun and there's a chance that the lad's paying him/her or promising to pay him/her once payday comes (as if!). When payday doesn't come, the lad loses his 'friends'.

EDIT: Regarding your point about having this topic 'debated', that's been done countless times by now and you should be able to find enough of that discussion through the search function. At a certain point we become bored of discussing the same thing over and over again when we are never going to reach a consensus. The point is that everybody should determine his/her own limits. Do what you feel comfortable doing, leave what you don't feel comfortable doing.

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:05 pm

The points you raise are valid,and I really don't think anyone wants to discourage you from asking.Reading the stickies is a good start,but what it comes down to is what you are comfortable with.I don't trophy bait or tatoo bait myself for the reasons that you state.I have no problem with someone who does-that is up to them.On the other hand,I would gladly send a lad on a safari into the middle of a minefield with full knowledge he might be killed,for the simple reason that that a lad would not likely send anyone but himself.In the end,it comes down to you.No one here want's anyone to exceed what they are comfortable with.

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:15 am

Thanks MoP, you are right: when I said 'Do something else' I did not mean take up knitting or making bookends! I meant, 'Do something else in your bait!'

There are a couple of things I wouldn't want to do in baiting, but therefore, I don't do them. I do other things instead.

You can do anything! I bait Romance Lads but my characters never ever fall in love with them. (Some of them love my characters anyway - most turn into 'penpals'.) I bait loads of Lads who are offering me millions - and nearly every single one of my characters don't actually want the money. That's not really ethics, though, that is my inability at acting out a character different to myself.

But it all still works out OK.

I am a boring old baiter who just wastes the Lads' time and tries to get them to write long and longer emails to me. Nobody would want to read my baits, and I have nothing to show for them, except countings of numbers of emails received. And the occasional bank account reported. And I think I'm brilliant for doing this!

And, DoD, I hope you are brilliant too. In your own way, within your own frame of ethics, in your own comfort-zone. I've said why I 'could' take the risk of asking for a 'special photo'. It's the same way I take the risk of asking my neighbour if they will take in my parcel delivery while I am out. I have no idea if they then go inside their house and beat their spouse black and blue to make them stay indoors to receive it for me. I hope not. But if they do, that is not actually my responsibility. I don't take responsibility for Lads' actions either.

But you are not me. If you feel uncomfortable with it, no don't go and knit a jumper or make a pair of bookends - just waste their time in email writing, and know that, whatever anyone else might be doing, YOU are making a difference.

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:02 am

DOD,
Here is an idea: If you get one or two innocent photographs before you get the one with the sign and the goat and the fish, it will become harder for them to recruit someone else for that. Assuming he has posed for the innocent photos himself.

Disclaimer: This is not advice from experience, just an idea. I don't trophy-bait myself (so far), just slow and straight, and only for a bit over a month.

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:47 pm

Thanks to all who were kind enough to take the time to respond and clarify. I can now see the post in the light it was meant and am sorry for the confusion. All points and advice noted and yes I will go to the search engine and read about stickeys and stuff before asking anything else.

I posted my original question because I HAD looked at the advice and some forum blogs and to my mind no one had addressed the problem but had sort of 'skated around it' and I thought that someone might have come up with something new or new thoughts about the problem since then.
Of course I know to act as I think morally right, but again was hoping that someone might contribute new thoughts to the discussion and allay my concerns.

In response to the statement about it being an old topic..well sorry about that but new members are going to want to 'do' the old subjects and surely those who have been here forever are very welcome to sighhhhh and not respond to those blogs but move on to more advanced topics?

Please do accept that you may have discussed these things forever and ad nauseum but us newbies havent.
Maybe the experienced ones could publish a list of stuff that they are bored with and we will scrupulously avoid mentioning them? I do hope you will get my point.
I am not trying to be clever, contraversial or argumentative. I am just trying to help you remember when you were very new, very curious, a bit over eager and very concerned and anxious to do things right.
Thankyou.

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:56 pm

^The point of it being an 'old' subject is that there's not much more to be discussed. Read one or two of the old topics about this subject (which can be fround through the search-function), and you'll have read all the arguments, which should be sufficient to form your own opinion and eliminate the need for such a topic.

If searching and reading a bit doesnt provide you with enough to form an opinion, you're welcome to ask. But mention that you have searched and pose a well-formed question. That way you might prevent the 'Here we go again'-feeling...

Note that I don't blame you for asking or am bored in any way.. Wink

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:24 pm

I love "DuckofDoom" Laughing

The ethics quandary has been around for ever and the advice everyone has given is spot on. If it doesn't feel right to you, don't do it. That said, most trophy pics, tats etc appear to be done voluntarily by the lad/ettes in the hope of cash or by willing friends/passers by hoping for a share. I don't do the tats or self mutilation bait but I'm all for milk over the head stuff or idiotic signage. I can't recall any post where it could be thought there was a "victim". I guess the ethics subject will be around as long as scammers and therefore this site.

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:55 pm

I find this stereotype of Africa as some lawless wild west type land very tiring*. A lad can't simply force someone into doing those things for him. If (and that's a big "if") the subjects in the photos are not the lads themselves, then they are either getting paid to pose or they are "in on it", as it were.

In both cases, I see no reason to sympathize.

* Yeah, I know, it's not your fault that the media portrays it as such. [/Politically Correct Disclaimer]

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:41 am

In response to Nick The Cop:
Ahhhh rite!
So my vision of well dressed, mobile flaunting 'hard men' swaggering about the village either on foot or in a 4x4 and bullying and intimidating people is all wrong? I am very relieved to hear it.

You see, I DO read a lot of old blogs, absolutely TONS of baiting incidents (I have even been known to sit here until 2.am following through a particularily funny one) and I have also read a great deal of the Hints and Tips and other advice and ethics pages. Over and over again I have read dire warnings that these people are dangerous criminals and can be a real threat if they find out who you are, so naturally all this engendered an image in my head of people who would very possibly coerce/threaten their compatriots into doing things they were not happy about.
Obviously I have got the wrong idea entirely.

In response to everyone else...again thankyou. I am not a fast typist myself and it takes a me a while to rattle these posts out. I dont know how fast anyone else is, so I do appreciate anyone who takes the time to type me an answer.

May I make a suggestion?
What about creating a forum for newbies who may just want to redebate old subjects?
To say that something has been debated a lot and so nothing else new is going to be said by anyone is (to me anyway) the height of.......err struggling to find a nice word here because Nick has helped me in the past and seems a really nice likeable bloke......lets say misapprehension.
My mum used to say ' New Heads...New Ideas' and I think that is pretty accurate. You can discuss something over years and until you are blue in the face and then someone new will just come out with an idea or thought that opens up a whole new aspect to the situation.
Apart from that, why shouldnt we have the right to debate old subjects if we wish to, just the same as the experienced users have the right not to read or contribute to them?
The last thing I want to do is bore the pants off anyone, but I will defend my right to post on any subject at any time unless a/ It contravenes the rules of the site. b/ I am specifically told not to by a moderator.

Again thankyou to all who are making my visits to the forums both instructive and enjoyable.
Errrrr (QUACK!)

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:28 pm

I'm not in the business of making people feel warm and fuzzy. You asked a question, I answered it.

There's a huge difference between making off with some confused, lost foreigner's money, and coercing the district barber into posing for an absurd photo. Don't think of Africa as something out of a spaghetti western or mafia film. It has yet to devolve into total anarchy.

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:44 pm

So am I right or wrong with my image of a typical scammer? Are they 'dangerous criminals' or not? I am still confused about this.

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:55 pm

Here's the thing, the scammers are dangerous criminals only insofar as the law is inadequate to get them.

Think of it this way, what's a victim going to tell the police after he gets robbed? "Help! Charles Soludo just robbed me!" "What does he look like?" "Tall black male."

One of the neighborhood characters, on the other hand, is going to fare much better with the police.

Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:57 pm

@ doomed Duck Very Happy

(i love your eatername!)
Ofcourse you have the right to post about anything you want, and yes you could bore the pants of of some older eatermembers but when you have a question and did a search through eater and couldn't find a satisfactory answer then by all means ask! There will allways be someone who will give you an answer. I've been here for more then a year and saw nearly any question come by and some of them repeatedly. If i see some other members answered your question then i don't bother. If i see you didn't had an answer yet then i'll answer your question, no matter how many times i saw thesame question come by. That's where this forum is for.
And yes, lads are dangerous criminals, that's why you should allways bait safe. The lad you are baiting could be living next door.

ETA: maybe you meant in the context of lads bullying other people. Lads CAN be dangerous to you if you're not carefull but they became lads because they are to lazy / dumb / cowardly to rob people on the streets, steal cars etcetera. They rather sit safe at home on their lazy ass scamming innocent people or they use an internet café.

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:59 pm

Scammers come in all shapes and sizes. Some scammers are highly organized, some work in groups, some have their own computers and mobile phones, some have (other) day jobs.... That means that anything we can say about your average lad, does not need to be true about the lad you are currently baiting. I would say, go with your worst case scenario... to be on the safe side.

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:23 pm

Re my question 'Are scammers dangerous criminals':
Nick, I dunno what you do for a living but if you are not a lawyer or a politician then summat is wrong with the system. Do you ever blummin give a straight answer? You are wasted here! You have to be either Gordon Brown or Barack Obama doing a bit of baiting on the side.
Ooooops! Sowwy! Now you will need to create a new account and move house/s!

The Vampire: Thankyou very much. I love your name too. Please do have a look at my profile website. You will be utterly charmed.

Persephone:
WOW! Wot a gorgeous bird! As soon as I looked at you the earth moved for me although I was bitterly disappointed that you choose to hide your charms under what looks to be a pinny. I know we are strangers as yet, but could you ever fancy having sex with a duck?

Thankyou everyone else. I take the point that scammers are not a known quantity and can be rich, poor, employed gainfully and doing a bit of scamming to pay for their monthly subscription to 'Busty Babes' or just scrounging layabouts. I suppose it was a bit daft of me to think of them as a genre apart from all being criminals.

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:29 pm

^ So that's what you're doing when you're not baiting. Very Happy

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:42 pm

Listen Vampire.....That duck in the video is old news if Persephone is interested in meeting up with me! Well fit or what?

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:19 pm

Admins, that's not a bad idea, a separate forum for ethics threads - so any ethics threads that pop up as they always will, and rightly so, can be moved there and debated to death. It would be a little hotspot of indignation and outrage! What fun!

Ducky, my suggestion to you would be to explore the areas of the site that you feel more comfortable with - there's always space for more fakey bank killers, and that is unarguably a 'good' activity!

And personally my ethics position has shifted in the 2 years I've been here. When a scammer has told you to prostitute your 13 year old daughter to send him 'fees', you tend to feel less generous towards them as a group. My pink audi in my siggy was a kind gift from Nurse Nasty when I summed up someone's complaints that the photos in a bait were a bit degrading as a scammer wore a melon on his head as 'who fucking cares?' Fact is, I have seen some vile and dispicable things from scammers who'd happily see you on the street for them to get rich, they no longer get the benefit of my doubt.

As for getting someone else to pose for a photo, yeah I'm sure that happens. Just because they're not smiling doesn't mean somebody has been held at gunpoint. Have a look at formal photos from any place any time in the world, they're usually solemn affairs. And these are formal photos - they are a part of a business transaction, and so will tend to be posed with a serious attitude, and that's down to the skill of the baiter in amking the transaction seem imminent and real.