Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of the Chad Bait

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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:18 am

Is 17 pages in 2 days any sort of record ?
other than PWT

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:17 am

Another ethics thread and ladhugging me is IBTL jump_4_joy

DirtMcGirt wrote:

If this Adamu was too stupid to know he was being baited, well then, oh well and LOL at you. Here's the thing.. I also feel no pity or sympathy for the people these Nigerian's scam. If you are so naive, so stupid, so greedy to give someone you don't know, haven't met, and your only contact with is via email, ten's of thousands of dollars, then LOL @ you. I have zero sympathy for the victims of these scammers, because I think these victims are essentially fools.

This part of your post is, what I most fiercly disagree with. Claiming s/o deserves no pitty because he is stupid, greedy or whatnot is simply cynical. Whatever reasosn people have to act naive, they deserve a happy life just like you and me. To claim otherwise is not moral high ground, but evil cynism and lack of empathy.

DirtMcGirt wrote:

You are able to justify it to yourselfs, because you pick targets you think "deserve" it, because they are theives.. but it's really just a mental game you play with your self.

granted, I found myself to be guilty on this charge a long time ago. Embarassed

why am i doing it? mostly for the fun. and yes, there are some things that help victims (sending bank a/c to alan, closing fake banks, etc.) Smile

. but all the trophy hunting, yeah, it's cynical. it is fun Cool

, but IMHO it has no high moral ground Sad

.

DirtMcGirt wrote:

I'm sure the scammers have all kinds of mental tricks they play on themselves to justify their actions, telling themselves that we are decadent americans, that no one who can afford to send 80k is going to starve, that america is the great satan and we deserve, and on and on and on... It's amazing the lies a human mind can come up with to justify their own actions.

yeah, it is amazing. Exclamation

and we do it on all kinds of things. Smoking, scambaiting, watching too much TV, eating too much, coursing environmental pollution Rolling Eyes

... after all, we are only humans. Very Happy

DirtMcGirt wrote:

It was TAL's thesis, and one I mostly happen to agree with, that you and the scammers do exactly the same thing, that there is no real moral separation between your actions and the scammers.

I feel guilty on this charge, too Embarassed

DirtMcGirt wrote:

You use the exact, same means the scammers to to con people, you use lying, conning and deceit, only the gains are different. And no matter what these people you con, lie to and deceive have done, there is no way you can claim any kind of moral high ground.

I feel guilty on this charge, too Embarassed

DirtMcGirt wrote:

You have become what you hate, only you don't have the 80k to show for it.

I do not see, how 80k $ in my pockets would make it better for anybody (except for me Wink

). There is a lot written about moral issues and baiting ethics on the eater. Most of it derives from the concept of "evil people deserve to be punished and to suffer" a credo very similar to your "stupid and greedy people deserve to be cheated and suffer". I would not subscribe any of the two concepts, I guess every human acts out of his perspective and wants to prosper (unfortunatly sometimes our mind is blinded with rage, hate or greed and we perform morally poor). Baiting to protect victims is a fair course, trophy hunting and torturing lads is a cynical pleasure. But it is fun, even w/o moral high ground.

I guess every person has to find his/her own moral borders. When I tease lads for fun, I would not go that far, other might go. Thats why they call me ladhugger here Cool

. Others enjoy torturing them lads more cruel, I am in no position to judge them.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:28 pm

npr_listener wrote:

I asked about that (sending money to a scammer) because somehow for me the idea of paying scammers to string them along crosses a fuzzy line. Strangely, it "feels" ok for them to be lured to potentially life-threatening places with just words, yet it feels wrong if baiters were to pay them to engage danger or humiliation.

For me, the reason is that it lacks sport. I mean, part of the (selfish) appeal here is to see how much we can get them to do with our words. I mean, think about what we were able to accomplish with some MS Word made WU receipts, a fake website and the power of (electronic) pen and paper. That is amazing to me. The fact that we can, without spending a penny, get these guys to arguably the most dangerous place in the world is amazing to me. I look at physically sending him money akin to fishing with dynamite. It lacks class and finesse.

A lot of people have claimed that we make the safaris look easy. Granted, the publishing of it may seem so. But you have to realize the behind the scenes planning that went on (more to KEEP him there than to just get him there). I mean, we take a great deal of time and effort with our planning. The words of each email are very important. I was surprised at one point during the interview (which did not make it on the air) Ira complimented us on the writing of the emails. I don't say that to pat ourselves on the back. I say that to point out the level of fine tuning that we use. Safaris have been my forte for some time. A lot of people ask what the "trick" is. There really is no trick. It's just experience and, after a 1,000 mugus, you realize what makes them tick. I mean, it took some time to get to the point where we can get these lads moving. But with the Miracle Network and Godspower, we were able to get them there within about two weeks. That is because we have done it before and we have seen the majority of the issues that are going to arise. It's trial and error. We made plenty of "mistakes" with the Adamu bait I am sure. But, through that, we were able to sharpen our baiting tools and use them to our advantage.

Quote:

Welcome back npr_listener. I like your style of questioning, are you a journalist? I ask because you seem to want to get all the facts before rendering a decision.

That makes me think she is NOT a journalist. Laughing

Sorry to all of the journalists out there.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:34 pm

Whoa,
I lose power for a couple of days, and I missed all of this??

At the risk of adding something that may have already been addressed:

Dirt McGirt wrote:

Quote:

And your opinion is pretty spot on, really. I am a sadistic, callous asshole.

Give him points for his own self-awareness, even if he has no compassion, nor empathy, nor ability to think outside his own world.

In Dirt's world, an elderly victim with dementia gets no slack.... he/she shouldn't have allowed their thought processes to deteriorate like that....

I have been in contact with such victims, who have agreed not to send any more money, but yet the very next day they have been contacted by the lad, and have forgotten everything they agreed to previously.

What about some of the less educated, less fortunate people from 3rd world countries, who answer job scams, only to get taken in by a scammer with a good command of English, something that such people may see as a sign of education & legitimacy?

I guess they should have been better educated and more worldly- their bad....?

Yes, we in the developed world laugh at the ridiculous formats used by the lads, advertising trunkboxes full of cash, dormant bank accounts, "Payment Officer" job offers, etc.

But not everyone has the same advantages that we may have had.
Some people just don't have the education, or clarity of thought, or worldliness that we may consider to be "standard"....
That is part of why I do this (well, that and the fix I get from being a sadistic bastard to the lads!) Laughing

I'm not posting this to convince McGirt or anyone else who thinks in the same narrow terms he does, that I have this irrefutable argument that he must acknowledge.

This is purely venting a little bit, which is good for getting into "baiting form"! Twisted Evil

Forever n00b Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 432

DirtMcGirt wrote:

. . . It would be more akin to tricking a child molester into coming to your house, then raping them with a broom handle.

To be honest, I'm not opposed to utilizing that tactic on child molesters, . . . and trolls.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:22 pm

I sense a new thread split coming up: 'The ethics on broom handles: ITP or not?'

Not quite a Newb Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 62

Oh no, I've missed an ethics thread Shocked

I wanted to discuss some ethics for quite a while, but I was afraid that it will come down to lad-hugger vs. lad-hater flame wars. One important thing to me: I've come to the opinion that playing on lads' nationalism is very wrong. When it's about Igbo and Yoruba nations, it sounds like fun because it's abstract, but when I thought about people closer to home, I reconsidered.

npr_listener, I like your questions. Usually discussing baiting ethics means discussing if it's ethical what baiting does to a lad. But I guess it's of secondary importance compared to what baiting does to you. Using deception to make living toys out of people is bound to do something to you, even if they're scammers. That said, I don't want to sound like the original poster. It doesn't stop me from baiting, after all.

About the church question - my answer is maybe, my baiting career isn't big yet. I could potentially have a problem with that, although I suspect that my answers will look from strange to insane to most baiters. This question is actually big, I would split it:
1) Is there a problem using sacred attributes (names, expressions, scriptures, elements of ceremonies) of the baiter's own religion?

My answer: might be. I have a problem with mock Baptisms for instance. On the other hand, if the original scam letter is targeted to Christianity, then I feel more right to use Christian-specific elements in the fun.

2) Is there a problem using attributes opposed to the baiter's own religion?

Again, might be. C.S. Lewis upon finishing "The Screwtape Letters" (a bunch of letters written as a demon) commented that it was disgusting and he wouldn't like to continue it. Of course he was writing a book about religion, not a bait, but I once tried to bait as a shaman and I can understand this feeling.

3) Is there a problem with the possibility that the scammer will convert?

I do have such problem. I have a romance bait right now and I wanted to be a Mormon at first, but now I've decided to switch to being a Baptist. I'm not willing to take the responsibility if the vlad actually tried to learn something about Mormonism and got hooked. I'm afraid that this sounds like insanity and lad-hugging, but I'm here to waste their time, not their souls. Yes, I realize that the probability of lad conversion is practically 0.

(edit: lexics, thanks to Pastor Frank)

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:45 pm

@Collider-I'm curious what you mean about playing on a lads nationalism,and what objections you have to it?

Not quite a Newb Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 62

^^^
Well, look in the mass caper thread for some insults to Igbo written as from Yoruba.

What would a bandit do if he gets very frustrated by people of other nationality? He'd go beat somebody of that nationality, of course. That's just how nationalism works, and lads seem to be very much into it. I can only guess what happens in Africa, but in Russia gangs beating people of nationality they don't like is kinda frequent.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:23 pm

I see what you mean.Never did that type of insult myself,but I can see where one could be concerned about that.
That one of the things that really kill me about the lad huggers.They say we are no different,but you know damn well they don't sit around the internet cafe debating the ethics of their actions.

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:54 pm

Regarding the church issue.

I have no problem telling a lad that I will pray for him. The fact is that I do pray for him - just not for the results he is hoping for. As slim as the chance is, I still have hope for his redemption. Meanwhile, I will run him as ragged as I can. Twisted Evil

As I am currently maintaining the character of a Bishop in a baiter-run church (as an adjunct to someone else's bait), I can't claim that I would never use a fictitious church in a bait. It's just not my modality of choice.

The fact that lads use Christianity to tug at victim's pursestrings is something I find repulsive. Even more repulsive are the reports that many so-called Christian churches in areas with heavy scammer populations encourage the scammers and even join them in praying for many rich magas. Does that justify the use of a totally bogus church - building on the lads' seemingly inherent superstition? I don't know. But it seems to me that if the lads are going to play fast and loose with religious faith, baiters might as well.

BTW, I am a Mainstream Protestant Christian, if that makes any difference. Very Happy

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:21 pm

The discussion is taking for granted that a Lad is morally driven, which is quite an assumption bearing in mind that he is by definition amoral, if not morally corrupt..

It is not uncommon for a Lad to cover several paragraphs telling how his religious beliefs prevent him from ever telling me a lie, and then rambles on about the forgooten stash of funds he needs my assistance with.

Offering a bait in the guise of a religion or church is not messing with a scammer's beliefs, as it wouldn't stand a chance without the lure of money. It's messing with his greed.

If it offends you to represent yourself as a church, then it is fine to take that out of your baiting tactics, but to think that you could make some change in a Lad by such a bait is highly unlikely.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 10

Wurzgnubbel wrote:

I think that if the joy of scambaiting really comes from preventing lads from scamming victims, that doesn't really explain why you particularly enjoy their suffering so much.

The point that their suffering is just fair and just has been made, and made quite clear. That doesn't explain the particular joy in their suffering either.

As some of the involved baiters have done here, it would be quite honest to admit to a certain amount of sadism and hatred. Especially YW has made quite clear that he doesn't object to being called a sadist, even in the interview.

Isn't that what the whole a-hole-poll is about?

So I don't see any point in critizising the core of what DirtMcGirt wrote. Her moral resumé is very questionable (actually I completely disagree with it), but when she says that you are sadists- honestly, you should agree (as some have done).

BTW: so far there's no real proof they've actually suffered at all. This fact could actually be considered a weak point of the whole bait.

An experience with a scambaiter can sharpen the scammer and provide the necessary motivation to continue scamming, just better. Yet...

since it is impossible to fight back, the only thing we can do is to bait these scammers and hope that the weak scammers will quit after a rough time...but I doubt it since in Nigeria that's all they do...well not really, but let's say that a lot of scammers come from there. If we have to kick these scammers in the nuts, let's have fun doing it.

419Eater is my life Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 281

A part of me thinks that if scamming became a dangerous endeavor it might actually discourage even the hard core from doing it.

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:03 am

^^^You have a point there. Survival of the fittest, or in this case, smartest scammers. When I think of scammers, I think of my other hobby, poker. There are many, many people out there who consider themselves good poker players and want to do it as a career but how many are actually successful? Same with scammers.

I'm sure some of the dumber ones go on to do other things in life, or do hitman scams. Laughing

However, as long as there are scammers, I imagine there will be baiters there to harrass them.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

MazinGurren wrote:

...but I doubt it since in Nigeria that's all they do.

That is quite a harsh generalization.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 10

"generalization" is a word after all. I like to generalize, usually I do not get misundertood...

do all nigerians scam? you don't need me to answer that question

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Quote:

"generalization" is a word after all. I like to generalize, usually I do not get misundertood...

True.

Other words that are just words:

'lazy'

'myopic'

'narrow-minded'

'jingoistic'

I try not to be misunderstood, either.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

MazinGurren wrote:

Yet...

since it is impossible to fight back, the only thing we can do is to bait these scammers and hope that the weak scammers will quit after a rough time...but I doubt it since in Nigeria that's all they do. If we have to do kick these scammers in the nuts, let's have fun doing it.

I added more of your post to make sure it was not taken out of context. Words mean something, and your words lead me to believe that you think that all Nigerians are involved in 419 scams. You are wrong in your assessment. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps English is not your primary language. I am not here to start a flame war with you or berate you, but many visitors browse these forums and I wanted to make it clear that your statement does not jive with what a vast majority of the members here believe.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 10

I do not feel like editing my previous post although you know that I know that not all Nigerians are in 419 scams and that I might have been a bit loose with my statement, you continue to drive your point. It is after all a forum...just as important as a legal document or a contract...This is getting really tiring. English is my primary language, no thanks for the insult.

Edited by OP at least once. TS

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

MazinGurren wrote:

although you know that I know that not all Nigerians are in 419 scams

Based on your post, it was the only logical conclusion I could draw. Editing a post is really not that hard, click edit>make changes>click submit.

MazinGurren wrote:

It is after all a forum...just as important as a legal document or a contract...

What exactly do you mean by this?

MazinGurren wrote:

English is my primary language, no thanks for the insult.

No insult intended, this is an international forum and sometimes things are lost in translation. I apologize if you took it the wrong way.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 10

@ Pastor Frank, ok edited out Smile

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:37 am

Great....We agree that although a majority of scammers come from Nigeria, not all Nigerians are scammers.

Let's continue Very Happy

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Posts: 16

Dorothy wrote:

There is a pretty strong code of ethics in the scambaiting community. Just a few of the things that are unacceptable in this community include: inappropriately harming innocent third parties, hacking, cashbaiting, racism, and social engineering.

Even though there are no written rules on the subject, in general, you'll probably find that very few baiters would send money, no matter how small of the amount, for a few key reasons:
-[...]
-Sending small amounts of money would essentially be using intermittent reinforcement, a psychological technique that can be used to influence behavior, and it probably starts to cross the line into social engineering.

Thanks for the response. Could you (or someone else) explain what you mean by "social engineering" in this context? I thought it meant impersonating a trusted party to gain access to information, but my definition doesn't make sense in the way you're using it.

Collider wrote:

I guess [what baiting does to the scammer is] of secondary importance compared to what baiting does to you. Using deception to make living toys out of people is bound to do something to you, even if they're scammers.

Yes, honestly I think that is what would concern me. Thanks about the CS Lewis info - The STLs are hysterically funny and thought provoking, and I'm kind-of sad to learn that he found writing them distasteful. Yet I can see what you mean. Having to burrow into the questionable morality of a character in order to write from his perspective involves a risk that you might get lost in there, even temporarily.

Collider wrote:

I'm not willing to take the responsibility if the vlad actually tried to learn something about Mormonism and got hooked.

I'm not sure this would be a bad thing; I mean there are a lot worse things to convert to, aren't there? Republicanism, for example. Wink

Seriously, though, I kind of get the feeling that after being baited under the guise of a real sect, a scammer might gain an aversion to it. So maybe it would be helpful to bait as a LDS, after all, if you want to decrease the chances of causing a conversion?

Not quite a Newb Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 62

^^^
Well, some of your characters might be lad-friendly. Unfortunately for the lad, their best intentions to send money usually end up with Mr. G0m3r getting everything and the lad getting nothing.

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