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 Did baiting really put a dent in 419?

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Dan Druff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I suppose we could always look at it from a different angle and ask what things would be like if there were no baiters.

Obviously more people (although we don't know how many) would have fallen victim to scams as there would be less public awareness; phone lads would be off the scale and the lads would not be inconvenienced in the slightest.

We burn their money and their time which is the only real resources they have to scam with. So we do make a difference and it is probably more than we imagine.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Of course what the original poster doesn't get to see is the work of the dedicated Straight Baiter playing the part of a potential victim who never asks for a photograph of a man with a tattooed fish on his head.

And due respect to our Fake Bank Killers along with aa419 (who we are proud to be associated with), and our own Fake Phone Lad Killers. Their tireless, routine and repetitive work just doesn't make the Headlines.

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Began Steele
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I am doing one bait at present and doing so with extreme care. I do not want it to know what is real. Safaris will come later, but only to make the lesson painful for it. It is dealing with me on two ID levels as a potential victim , and as a non victim who knows "me" but is providing a service. Interesting because I can see email send times and use that as an indicator of time it spends on me. The lengthening weeks I am keeping it going , and the increasing problems it has speak for themselves. A fake mail from "Fraud Detection Team"( ie. me) made it tell me an internet search for it produced no results. I think I am taking up one seventh of its time. I personally don't care if it is arrested, beaten up by the local law, slung in a Nigerian jail. Just remembering it may have caused suicide and tears. I think I am taking up one seventh of its time and with luck a safari or a lock up will do it no good.
Not only that I am working on blagging it for bank details, so I am going to hurt if I can do it. So this is effective. Later- when the bubble breaks- I'll get hate mail but I'm not about to tell it anything to help it.

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benjaminbunny
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The big problem (for me) is what to concentrate on? If there aren't enough baiters, there certainly aren't enough site killers. It's a dilemma Confused

Edit Embarassed Not forgetting the tireless phone lad killers Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I just take a couple of lads and really make them feel special. I think that I can probably try to bait 100 lads at once, but I wouldn't make their lives all that miserable. HOWEVER, I have got a couple of guys that I have really just made their lives hell. My hope, is that whenever my mugu Kevin thinks of 419 scams, his stomach will turn thinking of where it got him. I don't think I am changing the world by any means. But I sure think I have changed a couple of mugu's outlooks on life. Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I do not think that baiting has had much of an impact. Obviously, there are the individual lads that we have tormented but 419 is alive and well in the world and as technology becomes less expensive and Internet availability becomes more available to developing countries, 419 is going to grow. Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If I can keep one lad so busy that he doesn't victimize someone else, isn't that making an impact, abet a small one? Isn't one less victim worth it?

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Left Hand Luke
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This might sound selfish, but I do it for my own personal entertainment.

I've always loved scams, mind games and pratical jokes, and this combines them all.

It's like social work crossed with Ultimate Fighting.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^

I wouldn’t say that is selfish. I think that is why most of us got here. I know personally, I wanted a picture of a lad with a sign saying something stupid. However, once I got here I realized there was a lot more to be done than just getting these guys to take pictures. I realized it DOES waste their time and resources. Now I know that not only am I satisfying the evil in me, but I am really making life horrible for some stupid scammer.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Shadow wrote:
Wouldn't you guys be very upset if all of your lads suddenly get arrested and none of them are out there anymore to have fun with?

No more so than if they all died.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Shadow wrote:

After I told them several of the most interesting baits I found here they seem to finally grasp the concept fully - "anything that seems lucrative and comes from a person unknown to you is a scam".


Are you suggesting that may be one of the millons of mails they send is actually true!! Please dude, no one makes business of millons public, any one that handles business knows this!

May be you should try working a bait, and paying them, then come back and let us know the out come !!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Dan Druff wrote:
I suppose we could always look at it from a different angle and ask what things would be like if there were no baiters.

Obviously more people (although we don't know how many) would have fallen victim to scams as there would be less public awareness; phone lads would be off the scale and the lads would not be inconvenienced in the slightest.

We burn their money and their time which is the only real resources they have to scam with. So we do make a difference and it is probably more than we imagine.


Dan makes an excellent point here....just imagine the difference.

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Began Steele
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I read the heart rending stories of those who have been victims , I just wish I could curl up and die for them. I wish to the end of the earth I could change things and make all the money reappear. But I can't. Now I am a kind and charming and wise man,and if you met me you would think so too. But I will use every emotion of the sordid to get from them what I want. Make good friends with the one who is your executioner. (However in my case I am a bastard and in spite of the gold I will take two or 3 attempts to sever the neck until it is dead,such is the position of power.) If they are perverts then perversion I will give them. I will seek their secrets, and if I can get them -arrested. I long to find one who I can actually jail forever. I don't have hate, it is just doing a job. I am a "professional" baiter.It is nice to come here and at first you are alone.Then you begin to belong ,get a mentor, and find a PM in your box just because we are people. Then discover you are part of this community. Some know me as a person, not as Began.
Trolls had better beware. They do not know me. If you are a scammer then be careful, 'cos Began is going to mess you up. I can tell you I am very very discreet. I have a modality and it works.I will not publish but i have it. I welcome PM's about love scams and I have resources.

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kleindoofy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Seven of Nine wrote:
... the lads find the concept of baiting rather odd. They can't fathom why we'll spend our time enagaging in email exchanges, when for us, there is no material reward. ...


Not odd. They don't realize what baiting is. They can't. They can't fathom the concept at all, not just our engagement.

A lad could spend 24 hours a day for a week reading this site. The result would be that he would just think we were trying to get the victims to give their money to us and not to them. They can only fathom working for personal profit. Full stop.

For them a "fraud star" and an "Eater" are the same thing.
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Seven of Nine
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

kleindoofy wrote:
.....Not odd. They don't realize what baiting is. They can't. They can't fathom the concept at all, not just our engagement....


Hence, it seems the baiting community has a psychological advantage if scammers are kept in a state of "baiter denial".

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@ Began Steele - I have no idea what you just typed.

Something about modality that works, on trolls? Confused I'm seriously confused.

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Last edited by Nurse Nasty on Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

kleindoofy wrote:
Not odd. They don't realize what baiting is. They can't. They can't fathom the concept at all, not just our engagement.


I think you're exaggerating.
If the whole concept of giving something away for free was such an alien to them, they wouldn't be signing up en masse for various ridiculous "churches" to receive a promised donation.
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kleindoofy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^ If you say so. Confused
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John Drake
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

kleindoofy wrote:
Not odd. They don't realize what baiting is. They can't. They can't fathom the concept at all, not just our engagement.

A lad could spend 24 hours a day for a week reading this site. The result would be that he would just think we were trying to get the victims to give their money to us and not to them. They can only fathom working for personal profit. Full stop.

For them a "fraud star" and an "Eater" are the same thing.


If you were right, KD, then we'd be dealing with a variety of sociopath--which is, fortunately, fairly rare. Unfortunately, I think we are dealing with something simpler...and more insidious.

These lads KNOW they are doing wrong, but because of greed, opportunity, or whatever other factors enter into it, they are willing to steal....and rationalize that it's OK to turn a deaf ear to the suffering they create.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if--when they encounter people that are 'honest' or 'the good guys'--that they would feel a momentary twinge of regret that THEY can't be that kind of good and decent person....then the twinge is quickly supressed, and they get back to business.

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YOU NEVER NEVER RITE TO ME AGAN--EVAR EVAR!!! I WIL ASS GOD TO PUNISH YOU AND SEHND YOU TO HELL! YOU AR SO SIK IT MAKE ME ILL JUS THINKIN ABUT YOU SO CRAZY." -Dr Wily

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I can never trust you again. It will be hard for us to work together.
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Azure Sonnet
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Another point is that there isn't really any other feasible way to fight them right now. The authorities in the "victim" countries apparently aren't able to or don't want to, and the fact that the crime begins in another country, combined with the intangiability of the internet, puts 419 crimes into the "too hard" basket. It is brilliant that there is something being done in Nigeria itself, but until the law settles down over policing of the internet, scambaiting is one of the few weapons we have to fight the scammers.

Most of the reasoning behind why the scammers do this seems to be the misconception that all westerners are loaded.
I wonder sometimes whether educating the scammers about the reality would help lower the levels of 419's.

Another possible reason scamming happens is that the Nigerian culture seems to reward getting something for little effort. In the west, most of the time, hard work is valued, and whatever is gained at the end is valued all the more for the journey it took to get it. I still have the first piece of jewellery I bought with my first ever paycheque.

The scammers weak spot is most likely to be religion - it is Thou Shalt Not Steal, not Thou Shall Not Steal Unless You Are In A Western Union Branch or Thou Shalt Not Lie Unless Thou Is Not Caught. Perhaps the local priests/vicars could be asked to focus on these (original) commandments every week in church...

Ah, its all a moot point, as I said before, there's nothing we can do right here and right now, other than this.
The more people involved in baiting itself firstly makes scamming harder for the scammers, secondly word of mouth from baiters reaches more ordinary people/potential victims, and all these inform more people of the nature of scamming, possibly baiting themselves, leaving fewer potential victims.
The humourous nature of baiting also means the news spreads faster amongst the potential victims, and they are much more likely to remember the truth and research the issue themselves.

All this is an opinion, and something that has struck me in the short time of being a member of this site. None of this is concrete or definite, please correct me if need be.

Ye gods, I've had half a kilo of pear drops and I guess the sugar has kicked in!

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Last edited by Azure Sonnet on Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^ I agree with AS. Let's pretend that I put it into my own words and sounded intelligent.

("Thou shalt not steal unless in a WU branch" made me giggle.)

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Azure Sonnet
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

You score me some more pear drops, you can have joint custody Ipico!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

happyhost wrote:
Shadow, have you checked out the work of Scam Patroller on his traveling lads? Those mugus didn't have the ability to bait real victims


I sure did, as well as YeaWhatever's and several other safari baits. Brilliant , spectacular work. Hopefully I'll not offend any of the other great baiters if I'll add that in my personal book, I find YW's safaris particularly fascinating.

But, as a weapon against scammers, safaris are of limited use. Hardly 1 out of 100 lads will ever travel anywhere except for the nearest WU branch no matter what they were promised. Sending lads to safari requires advanced baiting skills from a baiter, long and patient trusbuilding (with some exceptions) etc. In other words, such baits cannot be mass produced.

Also, though while on safari lad can certainly not scam anybody, he's free to do so while building trust with his future tormentor, and immediatly after he's back home from his travelling adventures (provided he made it back home of course).

IMO, if the war on scam is ever to be won through baiting, it will be through the routine work of straight baiter.

Unique spectacular baits (esp safari baits), while hitting individual lads strongest (which is good for setting examples), have the least impact on scammers as the community. Where those baits really make a difference is in the field of educating people, because they're such a fun to read.

Quote:
I think that your estimates are a bit off, and the number of burned lads is higher than you think.


In this post the number of baiters in 419 Shuttle list was reported to be 133:
http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=653643&highlight=#653643
Further, judging by the members counter of this board (20K since 2003), and by posting activity, I'd estimate that the number of active baiters of this site revolves around 1K. Add to that baiters from other baiting sites and "freelance" baiters that may be somewhere out there baiting on their own, I'd top the number of active baiters by 5K max. Do you think I'm wrong somewhere with my estimations?

And, I wouldn't be overly optimistic about those freelance baiters who bait on their own without joining any of the baiting communities. Firstly, there couldn't possibly be much more of them than community baiters - when people are serious about something, they tend to quickly find appropriate communities for themselves (there are exceptions of course). And secondly, without all of the tips and tricks available at baiting sites, average effectiveness of freelance baiters is most likely much lower.
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Azure Sonnet
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
The reasoning behind me starting this thread was that... I started to realize that there's not enough baiters to really tie a noticable amount of scammers... So I grew interested to research a little bit deeper into the theory of baiting and see if there are maybe ways to increase the effectiveness of baiting.


Shadow, out of interest myself, have you found anything in this discussion as yet that gets you any nearer to your goal? Have you found anything that you think would help the community of scambaiting?

If I may, I'd like to play devils advocate. I am not attacking anyone, I really hope that it doesn't come out as if I am.
There have been some wonderful sections of discussion in this thread.
I was wondering at this point whether you feel that you are any nearer to your original goal?
What have you found out?

How has your opinion changed since the start of this thread, if at all?

I'd like to ask this last question of everyone else too, if I may.
I'd quite like to know whether this thread has enlightened/darkened anyone elses views aside from/as well as the original poster, maybe someone has been inspired?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

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