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 So are we training these guys?

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Lord Vader
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Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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Location: Besieging Minas Lagos


PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 6:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde wrote:
Quote:
Imagine trying to bait a scammer British, American or Dutch scammer of similar socio-economic background to yourself!


Send them my way, baby! IŽll take them on any time. That is where you go wrong, NK. I would bait them just as well as I bait the Nigerian 419ers. I see where you are coming from, but I always bait my pets straight, so I never ask them for a photograph with a sign saying "Bait my ass good!".
There is no way that a Dutch, American or British scammer could tell me from a real victim. I even give out my telephone number, so they can call me and see I am for real. My tickets and passports look like the real deal. I donŽt fucking care if they are Nigerian or American, I will cause them grief.
Unfortunately, they are never Americans, only West Africans.
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Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Thank you all for your responses. I'll have to have a think and get back to you.
Tweety
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 3095
Location: The Netherlands


PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 8:08 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde: When organising your thoughts, here's an extra point to think about. There are plenty of baiters that do not run these humorous baits. We often call them "straight baits". No jokes, no silly names, no pic prize. Just bait him and get the ingo. Then get the scammer arrested. I am such a baiter. Lord Vader is too. And we are more than willing to take on any western scammer.

The humorous baits serve serveral puropses that can make it coëxists with autobaiters and straight baiters, Not all have been mentioned but i'll gove it a go

  • Humor baits attract a lot of attention. They help raise public awareness and also attract many new baiters. That's a good thing since the scammers still outnumber the baiters roughly 200 to 1.
  • Humor baits serve as excellent input to create autobaiters from. Autobaiters need input . They need templates, set-ups and storylines. These can all be gathered from the baits.
  • Humor baits keep the scammer busy and severely disrupt their operation. Automatied baiting can never match manual baiting. A good bait that strings the scammer along for months before burning them and publicly hummiliating them is still a great way to upset a mugu and his operation. A mugu can simply not afford to give up on a bait unless he's 100% sure that the victim is fake. This means they will keep jumping through our hoops.
  • Humor baits cover up straight baits. When a mugu has been burned a couple of time on humor baits, he's far more likely to fall for a straight bait. These are the kind of baits that get scammers arrested (usually with the help of www.419legal.org) or so severely frustrated that they give up on scamming.


That last fact is one easily overlooked. Without humor baiting, a straight bait would be much more difficult to achieve. All three baiting methods have their place. Autobaiting to keep the masses busy and worsen the signal-to-noise ratio for the mugu's, humor baiting to waste their time and resources and to feed the autobaiters and straight baits to get them arrested.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 8:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Thank you all for your responses. I'll have to have a think and get back to you.


Please do.....
Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 10:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

J. Dog

Yes, perhas you are right and my comments are borne out of a lack of experience. By the way, you have a great knack of making baiting sounds like some ultra-hard, occult practice that J.G. Ballard might write a novel about! On the other hand, I have also not had a different experience - the experience of having been scammed - which might provide the necessary visceral venom.

Don't-be-a baiter-hater (don't worry I'm not one!)

Yes, (if I follow your post) I can see baiting as a response to the helplessness that individuals feel at the seemingly irrreparable injustices that technology makes possible. In a sense, maybe some are taking out on scammers (and it could just as well be speed cameras, viagra junk-mail, impossible house prices, et cetera) normal frustration at everyday modern life. And why not, indeed? Maybe this is the experience of being 'scammed' in the broadest sense which motivates baiting for some/many.

Buta Shi, Lord Vader and Tweety

If I may takes your posts together: this is very interesting. You make me aware of the total picture and the possible variety of different forms of baiting which need not exclude each other, but rather add up to something that is more than the sum of their parts. Straight, humour, automated, to name just three. In particular I am interested by the interplay of 'straight' baiting and 'humour' baiting. I love your theory of the way in which humour baiting covers for and straight baiting and makes it more effective, Tweety. All power to your and Vader's arm and your straight baits in amongst cakes, bread and wine!

***************

Anyway, returning to what I termed (my perhaps effete - touche, J.Dog) moral ambivalence: What do you think of the baiting of Russian internet brides which some members seem to be engaged in? [I'm afraid I don't know how to set up a link to a thread, but it's in the general chat forum somewhere, started by Dr Hugh Erection Perhaps a moderator could help me here] I don't want to go through all the arguments right now, but this seems to be an activity that bears some similarity to 419 baiting but has many more ethical pitfalls and is perhaps a more appropriate target of the sort of critique that I outlined in my previous posts... I'd be interested in your responses

******************

Might I also add that I have been thoroughly enjoying this discussion and appreciate the seriousness with which it is taken? This said, I am not some ethics bore or killjoy and find garden wolves, Arse Bandits FC et cetera absolutely hilarious! Very Happy


[/quote]
Dont_B_A_BaiterHater
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Don't-be-a baiter-hater (don't worry I'm not one!)

Yes, (if I follow your post) I can see baiting as a response to the helplessness that individuals feel at the seemingly irrreparable injustices that technology makes possible. In a sense, maybe some are taking out on scammers (and it could just as well be speed cameras, viagra junk-mail, impossible house prices, et cetera) normal frustration at everyday modern life. And why not, indeed? Maybe this is the experience of being 'scammed' in the broadest sense which motivates baiting for some/many.


Yeah sorry, I babble a lot of nonsense sometimes. My posts can be hard to follow, if not impossible at times. Too much perl code ruined me at an early age. Then I am forced to write Java to make a living. (Just be glad it's not C++ or I'd have written a manifesto by now.)

As for technology making irreparable injustices possible, you might find this goes back to homo habilis. We pass traffic laws in order to deter improper use of certain technologies. We pass gun control laws. We have regulatory agencies for foods and drugs.

These things all help people use technology responsibly.

If some metaphorical highway ran straight through my backyard, and certain people who used that highway refused to follow traffic regulations and regularly clipped my children, with no responsible body doing anything about it, I might just put up a brick wall to protect myself. I might throw in detour signs which lead them away from my yard and into a lovely valley somewhere instead. I might put down spike strips to make sure they don't get very far.

Of course, if these people were responisble and used the highway appropriately (a highway which my tax dollars and commercial spending goes to, by the way) then I probably wouldn't do these things and I would leave it up to the appropriate people to handle. (But I see this as being almost impossible any time soon.)

I think I'm babbling again. I should stop since I can't collect my thoughts properly. I need to post in another topic to figure out SMTP problems with my new automated baiting script.

Sorry, PM me if you need more info from me, but I don't think I'm being very helpful at all atm.
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
By the way, you have a great knack of making baiting sounds like some ultra-hard, occult practice that J.G. Ballard might write a novel about!


I have done some fairly exotic, complex baits. They look funny, but a lot of thinking goes into misdirection, plotting, effect, and mindfuck. To do an exceptional bait is very difficult. For instance, I have convinced a lad that I am a former KGB Colonel and have kept him on the line for seven months. This has allowed readers to have a "behind the scenes" look at the day-to-day workings of a particular guyman, and especially to see how truly vile and amoral this person is. The Russian Colonel killed two women and stole their Range Rover and the lad was glad to be given the car, even while knowing two women were murdered. It was of no consequence to him as long as he got the Range Rover. I later sank the ship the Range Rover was in and so, to your point, it is somewhat of an occult practice insofar as good scambaiting, at least the way I do it, is sophistry shot through with very dark humor.

So yes, it is far more difficult than it appears to be able to do certain things in scambaiting. Having said that, the "straight baiters" are more deadly and far more "occult" or secretive in the way they work than I am. And let me offer them some praise by saying that I would not want to have any of the "big name" straight baiters mad at me. These are very talented, determined people that you do not want to have working against you. That would not be a good situation in which to find yourself.

Conversely, if I get you into my house of head games you will not know it for some time. You will think you are in a privileged world of some sort and you will probably tell me things and say things that you will later regret for they will appear on the internet for the entire world to see. And I will paint a very vivid picture of your laddish ways if you happen to come into my inbox uninvited.

So while all of us have differernt approaches, the approaches are very effective in their own ways and are far more complex than they appear. For example, it might take you fifteen minutes to read six months of someone's work. I hope people can appreciate this craft and also the need for automation to do more work faster.

I would like to hear your story about how you were scammed. You could give us valuable insights. And you should take your venom and use it as the impetus to enter into the world of the people who scammed you see what it is really about and how it works. You are a good writer and something positive could come out of you having been on both sides as a victim and a scambaiter. I think that you make you the first person to do such a thing. As a writer, I would jump at the chance to have that experience.
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm taking the easy route here, and quoting myself. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
In all seriousness, I could care less about any of the bastards that make feeble attempts at sympathy and monetary gain from the likes of me. I am a compassionate person, but when I read how they have destroyed lives, I lose all sympathy, compassion and feeling for any of these people. Granted, the ones that don't practice scamming as a means of income I can appreciate, as well as have sympathy for them. But the ones that do, deserve to have their asses kicked, and I am sure much worse. These are people that blame us for the ruin that their country is in, but little do they care that they scam their own people, aside from those that they deem responsible for their hardships in life. I am someone that stands firm when it comes to accepting responsibility for his/her actions. You've made your bed, and you must lie in it. Now if after anoyone who reads this thinks that I am an asshole for stating it, then consider that there are people out there who at one point had a computer. As it stands now, they have nothing at all because with the computer that they once had, they answered an email and thought that someone calling themselves "Mariam Abacha" was serious. And in some cases now, those people have it far more worse than that of the prick that scammed them. If and when anyone asks me why I scambait, I tell them that I feel it is my civil duty to waste their time. It's also really funny. To put it bluntly, as far as scammers go, fuck 'em.

This is a link for my first published scambait on Scamorama. If you read it, right on, but the reason that I am posting is because at the end of the scambait, there is a little information regarding the current state of Nigeria.

http://www.scamorama.com/lumberg_kennedy.html


Nyankunde, it is as simple as that, at least in my opinion. Some of these scammers may be very intelligent people, and at least when I bait, I am not trying to take that away from them. I don't make any attempts to offend them, either. What they are doing is morally and ethically wrong, among other things, like illegal? When these scammers email unsuspecting people, they are not trying to make a quick buck. They're trying to rip the floor right out from under their lives.
Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

J Dog - very quickly before I go to work... I must not be such a good writer, after all - although it is flattering of you to suggest that I am! I must have given the wrong expression: I have never been scammed (not by 419 - I've paid some awful restaurant bills in my time!). I was speaking metaphorically. What I meant to say was this: you were talking about my lack of experience of baiting which meant that I felt squeamish about it. I was countering this by saying that the experience that would really and justifiably motivate baiting would be the experience of having been scammed. This is an experience that one hopes none of us ever has the misfortune to endure.
nevertrustahippy
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 8:32 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Buta Shi wrote:
I think you are right to worry that they are BORG-ING us. If you really are worried about this, here is what you can do.

1) Respond positively to any stupid suggestion.
2) Respond negatively to any rational argument or suggestion.
3) Confuse the lads and waste their time. In a genetic/reproductive situation, wasted time means fewer mutations and "generations".
4) DO teach them stupid English idioms and archaic weirdness.
5) DO NOT teach them to forge documents or find other ways to do what they do.

What do you think? Please post ideas here.


Personally I like to use their own bad english back at them. I always try to use the word 'modalities' and if they come up with a personal shocker like 'verificationing' I just repeat it back to them to make them think they're on the money and hopefully get them to use it in their letters to real victims.

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Buta Shi
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Grrrrr choked back some comments on this....

Quote:
that the experience that would really and justifiably motivate baiting would be the experience of having been scammed


does this statement and the use of the first THE rub anyone else the wrong way? We write and write... I think Nyankunde doesn't get it....

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firepunk
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Strictly speaking for myself, I've always hated scammers. Not just 419 scammers, but all the scammers from the ones who come up to you at a subway terminal, and ask if you have change for a 100, and when you do, you get a fake 100 in return, to the people dealing 3 card monte. I haven't personally fallen for anything like this, but a good friend of mine has been tricked out of money, when he was practically homeless. He used to be a very trusting person, and wouldn't mistrust someone till they gave him an actual reason. That has since changed.

Scammers don't just steal money from people, they make those individuals completely distrust every human being they come in contact with. They steal from your soul. Thats not a healthy way for society to grow. It is not healthy to not trust your family, friends and neighbors. How can society grow for the better, when you are always expecting the next person that smiles at you, to do something horrible to you.

Taking a different perspective (or maybe not) it is not just scammers who create this paranoia about people. It's bad people in general. Thieves who break into your home, murderers, car jackers, muggers, drug dealers, and used car salesman all cause people to not trust anyone they see. Layered on top of all that of course is the general news media. While a lot of these things don't happen very often, statistically speaking, the news media would lead you to believe otherwise. The are in a way, scamming you out of your trust. The media would like you to believe that in any second, you could be the victim of some crime, be it violent or not. The truth is that you're more likely to get hit by a bolt of lightening than become a victim of criminal activity.

I can't base this on any specific studies or facts, but I suspect that many of these 419 scammers are not just scamming people out of all they own, but they probably have done much worse things than steal a thousand bucks here, or a thousand bucks there from someone. It wouldnt surprise me to learn that they are involved in drug traffiking, armed robberies, murders (we know some are, theres news stories about it), and a whole host of other things. These people are just downright evil. They care nothing about you, or me, or anyone. They only thing they care about is where their next grand is coming from. They are selfish individuals who would sooner stab an ice pick into your throat, than help you fix a flat tire.

These people deserve everything they get when they are baited. They deserve to be driven crazy by a baiter. There is no excuse for the stuff they do. Just because you're poor, and you come from a poor country, doesn't mean you have to be a shitty person.
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:50 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I understood Nyankunde's clarifying remark and it didn't bother me. It is easy to misstate things when you're writing, this by omission.

I hate the injustices and cons that surround us everyday, most of which come from corporations and the government. I fight being conned or hustled which comes in a millon ways.

My biggest bare-knuckle fight over a con was against that incompetent and conniving behemoth named AT&T several years ago over one of its cell phone plans which was misrepresented factually to consumers. I signed up, saw the con, and cancelled on the basis of factual misrepresentation, They hit me with the expected $200 cancel fee and I went straight to the California Dept of Consumer Affairs, the FCC, and the DOJ where I alleged criminal fraud and conspiracy. In the end, a lot of people went to the DOJ and that was the body that ultimately scared AT&T and forced them to cancel millions and millions of dollars in bogus overcharges and cancellation fees. I went in early with my complaint and was actually deposed by the DOJ and then had an AT&T lawyer call and ask of she could tape our conversation, to which I said no unless I had counsel representing me and that I would call the DOJ to see if they wanted to provide counsel as they had already deposed me. End of story. All charges cancelled. Never heard from AT&T again.

The older I get the more I see that life is a hustle and a con and I am generally cynical, especially of younger people who seem more predisposed to lie and steal because they have nothing to lose, no family, and no assets to protect. Here I should say that I don't suspect hard-working young people, but only a certain type, and that would be the hustlers whose goal is to become a millionaire before age 30. Most of these types, IMO, do it by fraud, connivance, and by attempting to use other people's money. Most seem to invariably go bankrupt and leave relatives, friends but especially their vendors holding the bag with loans and promises these hustlers cannot repay.

I also suspect anyone on the internet and anyone from a country with weak laws. The only good thing I've seen is China's honest attempt to crack down on copyright policy and intellectual property fraud in order to keep its MFN status with the US. And even with its draconian penalties, forged DVD's and CD's and fake designer clothing still pours out of China. IMO, the abuse of copyrights and trade names -- that is pirating software, movies, and making fake designer clothing and luggage, watches, etc - is China's version of 419, but I digress.

As long as Nyankunde wants to dialogue, so what? Here we have a person who is learning something and this thread has turned into an interesting and lively thread, which leads me to ask: What do you want for free?
Code:


Last edited by Guest on Tue May 25, 2004 1:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Buta Shi -

I didn't want to incite those grrrs... I think that what firepunk says is perfect motivation enough for baiting. What I meant was that, if you had been a victim of a 419 scam, you would have a bloody good source of motivation for baiting, an ultimate and pretty well unquestionable source: personal vengeance. Given that members do not have that source (unless any have actually been 419 scammed - I doubt it), then it makes things a little more complicated and worth discussing.

Let's take an analogy:

Perhaps we can all agree that graffiti is a bad thing and a social problem.

1. If someone daubed the wall of my house with graffiti, I would try and catch the bastard and give him what for/get the police onto him/scrub the vile scribblings off myself, et cetera. In other words: I would be feel force to deal with the consequences and try and exact personal vengeance in some way or other as the problem had affected me directly.

2. This is different from launching a crusade against graffiti in the local area when one has not personally been a victim. This second action may well be the right thing to do but has to be explained in a different way. Would I being doing it because I don't want my house to get done? Or to avange Mrs Moggins down the road? Or because I just don't like the look of the little thugs who produce graffiti? Or because I believe in social cohesion and the 'broken windows' effect?

One would have discuss questions of social responsibility; think of the best ways of tackling the problem and their relative merits (a vigilante posse with baseball bats at dusk; anti-graffiti paint; getting the local council to allocate an official graffiti wall and set up art classes (!)); work out if ones energies might not better be expended on another way of helping ones community.

Different sorts of motivation and justification in the two cases. The same goes for baiting if one has been scammed or if one has not. The two scenarios make for very different discussions on the ethics of baiting.

Anyway, maybe all of this is leading to too many misunderstandings and should be dropped.... Happy baiting!
Tweety
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 3095
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde: There's a very easy solution to all the questions you ask. Just go read this thread:

http://www.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4710

In the first post you will find a link to a full conversation between a scammer and a Dutch woman. Read the entire conversation. It's hard to read all the way through the end but I suggest you do.

You can then answer all your questions for yourself because you will be infuriated by scammers and highly motivated to do whatever you can to nail them.

Welcome to the real wold of 419...

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LiveBait
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:49 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

tweety wrote:
Nyankunde: There's a very easy solution to all the questions you ask. Just go read this thread:

http://www.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4710

In the first post you will find a link to a full conversation between a scammer and a Dutch woman. Read the entire conversation. It's hard to read all the way through the end but I suggest you do.

You can then answer all your questions for yourself because you will be infuriated by scammers and highly motivated to do whatever you can to nail them.

Welcome to the real wold of 419...





That did it for me, I am not going to be selective anymore-going after every single one I can get.
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Tweety
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Told you so Rolling Eyes

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Buta Shi
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Evil succeeds if good men (?) choose to do nothing.

Whether it is graffiti or scamming, "the weak" who are likely to be victims cannot defend themselves or take action to prevent it happening again.

I think this world needs a little more of "watching out for the other guy". (Jimmy Stewart)



Myself, I am not a victim IANAV, but I play one in my baits.
Thanks for the link Tweety. Thanks for the site, Shiver and co.

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Toilet Sam
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde wrote:


Perhaps we can all agree that graffiti is a bad thing and a social problem.


I disagree! Scrawling drunken curse words on the side of someone's house is obviously wrong, and should be illegal. But spending hours sketching, selecting colors, and painting a beautiful piece on a dirty, uninteresting train station wall is a community service.

In any case, I haven't gathered my thoughts on this current debate enough to post a proper reply. My first thought, however, is to suggest that, although baiting is a somewhat unusual form of vigilante justice, and is in fact "fun," it only addresses the product of a problem - not the cause.

Not that I am absolving the scammers of the wrong they have done, but to really combat the issue of scamming, we would have to change the political situations in several third world countries, as well as change the foreign policy of countries like the United States and the UK. As long as countries like Nigeria are stuck with corrupt government officials and organized crime, the attitude of many people will remain one of "Get Rich Quick." Unfortunately, I would imagine that job opportunities are not in abundance in Nigeria (or any other scammer-rich country), so the average person may see scamming as a reasonable option. I don't know a huge amount about the modern political or economic history of Nigeria, but it seems that if the country was strengthened politically and economically, we would see a large decline in scamming, because people would be busy working real jobs.

Certainly, there are scammers in countries other than the Nigeria. Even if we lived in a near perfect "global community" with plenty of money for all, there would most likely still be scammers - there have been religious scammers in the United States who have taken people for millions of dollars at times (Scientology even?). However, it seems very likely there would be so many less scammers, as people let go of absurd, greedy plots and focused on their actual lives, which were finally worth living.

I'll draw something of a parallel. I haven't done my research, but I believe that crime rates are much higher in large urban areas in the United States, especially among minorities. You could try to stop this problem (as the US has) by arresting people once a crime has been committed, or if you are lucky, catching them before it happens. However, this has never stopped and usually hardly slows down the amount of crime. This is because the incentive to commit crime, as well as the opportunity to do so, still exists in these places. The US has only somewhat tried to address the poor living conditions and low levels of education, because of severely underfunded schools, in these areas, but is more content to simply throw people in jail as soon as they get the chance.

Now, I understand that you can hardly compare a group like 419eater to the US government. However, I only wonder if scam-baiting really addresses the root of the problem.

If this seems at all confusing, it may be because I am writing this on the fly, and with no way to organize my thoughts, I've ended up running through several ideas in my head and tried to get them all down in some cohesive fashion. I do believe that the scammers are "bad people." I've read many baits and seen how cruel and greedy they will be to take a few thousand dollars from someone. I believe that 419eater and like groups do perform a valuable service, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, by getting huge amounts of information on the scammers, as well as occaisonally helping to catch some of them. Perhaps this is the best service we can provide. Hopefully enough people will be educated by this type of work, so that nobody is scammed in the future.

Thoughts?
Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Toilet Sam - you're pretty brave. I bet that any moment the full weight of the forum comes down on you as a scam-apologist! Speaking for myself: I have a lot of sympathy with some of the point that you raise and appreciate that your comments are speculative.

Oh and by the way, graffiti was just for analogy. No particular view, although I do hate tags on buses.
Tae
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Toilet Sam: I can see your point of view, but taking influence on the political situation in another country is not only difficult but the question is also who has the right to do so and would people in Nigeria agree?
Another point is that I don't think most 419 scammers do this because of their poverty, my impression is that their greed is bigger than their poverty.
A decent government might do more against these scammers, but look at the United Staates and Europe, they are not really interested in catching the scammer.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, it's always difficult to judge from the distance!
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Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This thread should be renamed 'the Ethics and Politics of Baiting'.

Adding to similar posts by Tweety and others: if you want to read something extraordinary about scamming that may well arouse indignation and venom, read what GAGA has to say in his post http://www.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9270 on telephone camming of the deaf. Truly shocking. It details her/his personal involvement in the following: http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/dailystar/17393.php


Last edited by Nyankunde on Tue May 25, 2004 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:27 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde wrote:
I bet that any moment the full weight of the forum comes down on you as a scam-apologist!


That would be the subtle hostility brought on by assuming an opinion different than yours is opressive. I respect your opinion, just disagree. I also disagree with the notion that the difference between socio-economic backgrounds vilainizes the baiters. In fact I find that theory ironic in that scammers are using technology against their victims. I am curious, I have read your opinions on these matters but you are vague on what you believe should be done. Please know that I have no malice in my question I am truly curious.
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Toilet Sam
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde wrote:
Toilet Sam - you're pretty brave. I bet that any moment the full weight of the forum comes down on you as a scam-apologist! Speaking for myself: I have a lot of sympathy with some of the point that you raise and appreciate that your comments are speculative.


Very Happy

I'm sure that any "rebuke" would be well thought out and probably help to educate me, so I'm not too worried. Thanks for thinking of me.

Tae - I agree, its not really my place to dictate the political situation in another country. After looking over my post, I also realize that I've come from two perspectives which don't really have much common ground.

One is suggesting that a strong political system would help to prevent criminal activity in countries where scamming is prevalent.

The second (and probably the one which is closer to my voice) says that it is, in fact, NOT the role of government, but more the role of the people, like us, to enact social change, thereby getting past the corrupt systems which have caused so many problems in people's lives.

J. Dog wrote:
I hate the injustices and cons that surround us everyday, most of which come from corporations and the government.


I am pretty damn cynical, and don't have much faith in the current political system in the US - where I live, if it wasn't already obvious. However, I do believe in the power of intelligent people to create changes to better a society. This issue of what is the best path to take for change is something I've often struggled with. Example: Is it better to vote for Kerry, knowing he will be only marginally better than Bush, and a product of the same political system, or should I put my efforts into organizing some third party campaign and trying create a real change in the government?

I've found from reading this forum almost religiously over the past couple of weeks, that people here have incredibly interesting ideas about a number of things, and are especially creative in enacting them. I felt like I should throw my reservations into the mix and see what comes out. I'm half convinced that scam baiting IS the best way to combat the scammers, mainly because it allows us to inform potential victims of the risks involved with these scams. While we may not be stopping the Spam from festering in our inboxes, we are at least spreading information and knowledge about the issue, hopefully to prevent others from being harmed.

While we're on the subject, I guess I should bring up another concern regarding baiting.

Consider the following trophy, posted recently in the pictures forum:
http://www.geocities.com/pastorgabyseenia/international.htm

pmycrackin wrote:
I must be honest - this is the most humiliating picture I have seen in a long time. Just look at that face - this pet aint a happy camper


Is it possible that the reason "Mark Bome" looks so unhappy is because the real scammer is standing just out of the shot with a weapon of some kind? I don't know if this is something that's come up before in the forum, but I'm curious - do we know if the scammers really use pictures of themselves? I worry that the trophies we display are pictures of innocent people who have been forced to pose ridiculously by some thug who's hoping to win over pastor Gaby.

Damn, I'm making myself depressed. I imagine the expereinced members of 419eater can speak to this. Maybe repeat pictures show up, of the same scammer, or other ways of verifying their identities exist.
Buta Shi
Master Baiter


Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 122
Location: Japan


PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:21 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

First, I won't feel guilty at all about baiting someone who is poorer than I am.. because well.. most people are poorer than I am. They are hurting other people and I can do something about it. They scam each other. Maybe I am stopping a cycle of poverty somewhere. Besides, these scammers are not going to invest the money they get to help their country. If they don't care, should I?

The point about coercion in the trophies is an unsettling one. It is mentioned by Shiver, I think. Notwithstanding that possibility, they are useful. We do assume it is the scammer, and most of the vilification is directed at the personage of the scammer. Would I be stretching it to say that it does not matter if they are the actual scammers or not? Certainly we do not instruct the scammers to coerce others. If they do, that is THEIR karma, "dude". (sorry, I have a lifelong vow never to use the word karma unless I follow it immediately with dude) If you review the posts in this thread, you will see that all the styles of baits aid the cause in one way or another.

Don't want to make this a shotgun post, but you should see that "tagging" is the destruction of property, plain and simple. It places a social burden on all of us to either have to look at it, or to clean it up. If you don't respect property, it is "kewl", but if you have to pay taxes, it sucks. If you want art, build your own wall and paint it ferchrisssakes... I am not a robocop kind of guy, but I am conscious of people destroying the immense wealth that people have strived to create... and that we enjoy in developed societies. If you read some posts from longtime residents of Nigeria on this forum, you can see what the pathology of that country has wrought on the land and people.

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