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 So are we training these guys?

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Epistimon
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 49
Location: Hurricane Alley


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 12:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
f we reinforce their WRONG CODES or give them false ideas, then we are teaching them to present themselves incorrectly. If we respond positively to them and let them know that in the United States, the correct way to begin a letter is, since fiscal year 2004, Dear Motherflocker: ..., then we are "setting them up the bomb". We are putting some nasty bit of dna into their mix. If we reinforce that through group effort, then we can culture that message to the point where some major distribution of spam will contain the opening line: Dear Motherflocker, this message may come as a surprise to you....


I think this idea is brilliant. It would be an interesting study on so many levels. The movement of phrases through a language system (i.e. where did donkeypunch originate and what route did it take when it spread.) The psychology of scammer or "scam-ee", the evolution of language in non-native speakers, the list goes on and on. Makes me wish I were in a PhD program, but I don't need a college to do research do I?

I will play the game TANEMAKU. I have several baits I am about to cut off and am ready to sow some more seeds. I tend to stick with 1 guy for a long time otherwise I can't keep my stories straight. So when I spread my phrase I will let everyone know. I find the theory fascinating, and have so much to say but not enought space to do it. So...

To my main point, I think I am understanding what Nyankunde has been saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but appears that he believes baiting is a worthwhile endeavor. However, sometimes we might fool ourselves about motive. Trophies are great and I want one, but shutting a lad down is hitting them where they live. Do you want to really stop a scammer or do you want to jerk them around? Jerking them around just makes them more wary (and smarter) for the next victim.

For me, the scammers represent every person or entity who has pulled the wool over my eyes in the past. I would love to see them all arrested or at the least stop someone else getting taken. That is what I tell myself is my high moral purpose, but that doesn't stop the malicious glee (Nyankunde's sneering?) I get from thinking that not only is the scammer not going to get any money from me, he will lose time and his own money and be soundly ridiculed for it.

Maybe this will make my position clearer. I had 3 men break into my house last November and almost make off with over $5000 of musical equipment (Thank God they were caught in the act thanks to concerned anonymous passerby alerting a police officer, may only good things happen to him). It had taken 10 years and me sometimes working two jobs to aquire that equipment. The damage they did to my house is still visible because I will not spend my own money until after I ask for restitution. Ten years of my hard work and it almost became theirs for 5 minutes or their time. They did not work for it nor deserve it. Eight months later and they still have not gone to trial and are walking the street. I have been in contact with the County Attorney to assure these "men" recieve jail time. The damage is worth it to me to know they could spend 10 years behind bars and nobody else has to worry about them. Do I want to spare other people the experience I went through? Yes. Do I want to keep the strees safe for honest citizents? Of course. Do I fantasize about them being passed around like man-candy when they are in jail? Absolutely.

Let me stand on my soap-box a little while longer. Nyankunde seems to be an intelligent and thoughtful person, playing a bit of the devil's advocate. I think I get where you're coming from, and we're on the same boat. If not, feel free to correct me. For everybody who reads this, if you think you see a crime being commited continue doing something about it. Not just online but in the real world. Every time I pick up my guitar I am thankful that someone didn't turn his head away, and I have vowed to do the same.

Some of you baiters are like the Justice League. Me, I'm just a sidekick, but I think I have inspired myself with my own words. So, If your superpower is to humiliate, then humiliate. If your power is to have an arrest made, then in the name of justice carry on. Confound, harrass and insult to the best of your ability. And please, promise to use your power only for good, because God help the scammer who gets in your way.

So, the way I see it, every scammer, thief and two-bit hood deserves everything the legal system sends their way, and every extra bit of humiliation and discomfort an honest citizen throws at them. Sending the scammers to jail is the cake, having them humiliated is sweet, sweet, icing. Some would rather eat the icing, some the cake, but in the long run they're both pretty tasty.

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I believe, said Epistemon, that this is the language of the Antipodes, and such a hard one that the devil himself knows not what to make of it.

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Buta Shi
Master Baiter


Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 122
Location: Japan


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Right on Epistimon! Loved your comments. Thanks for sharing....

Your Justice League comments are kind of funny. I feel like a wonder-twin myself alongside Shiver (Batman), Jenderbender (Wonder Woman haha), Komsomol (Superman), Lew Skannen (the Flash), and JDog (Green Lantern)... who wants to be Aquaman?

Don't forget though, that those guys all have superpowers. That is fantasy. Doing the right thing is NOT to be left for someone else, like picking up the trash. We have a duty to better the situation. You understand that anyone can make a difference, but the OPPORTUNITY is important. Baits present themselves, and there are opportunities to do damage that should be taken, as JDog says, without hesitation.

Some baiters, finding such a situation, might consider asking for help. More experienced baiters and straight baiters might be able to leverage small opportunities into major damage. Serendipity....

Reading this forum, any person can find some new way to have fun and muck things up for the scammers as the OPPORTUNITY presents itself. Perhaps Nyankunde is doing all of us a service by clarifying our intent and motive. Having that, we can go out and exploit opportunities.

The original intent of the thread was the concern that we are teaching them better skills so that they can use those against others. Through discussion, we have pretty well reached the conclusion that Tweety stated. All kinds of baiting are helpful. Used in combination, they present the most damage to the scammers and yield the least likelihood of "training" them.

I am going to move on to getting my machines and methods geared up.

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Wright B Hindyou
Elite Baiter


Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 1795
Location: Bangkok


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 4:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Whenever I have any qualms about baiting, particularly of the kind which argues that I shouldn't be picking on socio-economically deprived people in Nigeria (et al) who are just trying to make a living, I remind myself that:

1) Scammers are the urban, educated middle class in Nigeria, the really poor Nigerians are the mass of the population out in the rural areas without access to electricity and clean water, let alone computers and the Internet, and;

2) By perpetuating and proliferating 419, scammers give Nigeria a bad name worldwide, and put off foreign investors who might otherwise be prepared to invest in the country, the beneficial effects of which would be felt by all Nigerians.

Thus the main victims of 419 are not the occasional greedy and gullible magas who get stung, but the genuinely poor rural people of Nigeria.

And you know what else? The 419ers don't care about what happens to their own compatriots, as long as they fill their own pockets.

So keep on baiting.

_________________
"YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO HUMANITY" - Douglas Minning

"bastard like you, I will kill you with my hand, son of nobody. May your soul rust in help." - Titi Andrew

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"you must speak beter because we dont train mad people in this company." - Incredible Self-Baiting Pastor Joe
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barBARRYan
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 41
Location: la la land


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
But just as one should not generalize about Nigerians so one should not generalize about baiters...

As someone who has hispanic [Mexican] Grandchildren and a son who is married to a gal from Zimbabwei,
I AM NOT RACIST.
I really don't have the time to harbour such nonsense as racism
I bait the bastards because they are shit. Period.
Whether they are from Mugu Central or Africa is a moot point to me. They are still pieces of shit to me.
chinga them.

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TRUST on it's own is the CONUDRUM of truth.
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:28 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Buta Shi wrote:

Quote:
Your Justice League comments are kind of funny. I feel like a wonder-twin myself alongside Shiver (Batman), Jenderbender (Wonder Woman haha), Komsomol (Superman), Lew Skannen (the Flash), and JDog (Green Lantern)... who wants to be Aquaman?


I will, although Green Lantern was my favorite.
Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:59 am Reply with quoteBack to top

There are so many things in this thread to pick up on....

Epistimon - Yes, I think you characterize my point accurately.

Livebait - sorry to be vague - still working on it.


There is an important issue that has begun to arise from this thread in a number of posts (not least Toilet Sam's): we actually know very little about scammers and scamming (just as, of course, they know very little about us - otherwise Dr Jenny Talwartz and similar wouldn't work) and not very much about Nigeria. It is this lack of knowledge that adds to the moral uncertainty that Toilet Sam raises in connection with the miserably humiliated people in trophies.


Buta Shi has started a thread over in General Chat asking why do baiters bait (an issue that this thread has dealt with as well). Perhap just as important questions might be:

1. Why do scammers scam?
2. Why do the vast majority of scammers operate out of Nigeria?
3. What is the socio-economic position of an avaerage scammer?
4. How do scammer hierarchies (address harvesters, photo-models, big cheeses) work and what do they consist of? How much coercion is involved in them?

There is a range of possible answer to these sorts of questions. Wright B Hindyou has some suggestions below:

"1) Scammers are the urban, educated middle class in Nigeria, the really poor Nigerians are the mass of the population out in the rural areas without access to electricity and clean water, let alone computers and the Internet, and;

2) By perpetuating and proliferating 419, scammers give Nigeria a bad name worldwide, and put off foreign investors who might otherwise be prepared to invest in the country, the beneficial effects of which would be felt by all Nigerians.

Thus the main victims of 419 are not the occasional greedy and gullible magas who get stung, but the genuinely poor rural people of Nigeria."

Buta Shi implies that there is a 'pathology' in Nigeria, as if corruption were an organic disease (of course, etymologically it is):

"If you read some posts from longtime residents of Nigeria on this forum, you can see what the pathology of that country has wrought on the land and people."

Toilte Sam gives a whole raft of possibe reasons for the prevalence of scamming in Nigeria:

"Not that I am absolving the scammers of the wrong they have done, but to really combat the issue of scamming, we would have to change the political situations in several third world countries, as well as change the foreign policy of countries like the United States and the UK. As long as countries like Nigeria are stuck with corrupt government officials and organized crime, the attitude of many people will remain one of "Get Rich Quick." Unfortunately, I would imagine that job opportunities are not in abundance in Nigeria (or any other scammer-rich country), so the average person may see scamming as a reasonable option. I don't know a huge amount about the modern political or economic history of Nigeria, but it seems that if the country was strengthened politically and economically, we would see a large decline in scamming, because people would be busy working real jobs."

ie, international political and economic situation, institutional corrpution, lack of economic opportunities.

People who get banned from these boards blame it on colonialism.
Other people who would get banned would say that it is race and genetics.

In any event, for a serious discussion of the ethics of baiting, these questions must be addressed.
Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Adding to my previous post:

Tae writes:

"Another point is that I don't think most 419 scammers do this because of their poverty, my impression is that their greed is bigger than their poverty.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, it's always difficult to judge from the distance!"

Exactly! Your feeling is that this is greed not poverty. Who knows? It is very difficult to tell at this distance. And yet - at a safe distance - baiters get involved (getting pictures like the one that Toilet Sam provided the link to) without any real sense of context. Now, this does not mean that baiting is invalidated. It does, however, mean that it is morally incumbent on baiters to find out far, far more about the context into which they send their long-range missiles.

Collateral damage? Alternatives to a bombing campaign? Surgical strikes? The location of the Chinese Embassy (remember Belgrade!)?
forestmoon
Elite Baiter


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 1847
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
"Another point is that I don't think most 419 scammers do this because of their poverty, my impression is that their greed is bigger than their poverty.


To have visited West Africa and to have West African friends both over there and in your own country does help in putting the scammers into context.

And it makes you hate them even more for their stupid greed.

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BlackBread
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Location: UK (Inner Hebrides)


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:59 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde wrote:

Quote:
I'm half convinced that scam baiting IS the best way to combat the scammers, mainly because it allows us to inform potential victims of the risks involved with these scams. While we may not be stopping the Spam from festering in our inboxes, we are at least spreading information and knowledge about the issue, hopefully to prevent others from being harmed.


Absolutely!
If the victims know exactly what 419 scams are about, then 419 will disappear.

In my opinion, much of the value of the humorous baiting is that it generates publishable stories that gets people's attention.

General mugu timewasting is more mundane, but it serves a useful purpose.

Automated baiting is in its infantcy
- but clogging a 419er's inbox with junk to sift through must reduce their productivity.
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forestmoon
Elite Baiter


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 1847
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
2. Why do the vast majority of scammers operate out of Nigeria?


Because crime is regarded as socially acceptable and even the norm in large sectors of the population in Nigeria. Of course, the same is true to a certain extent in any country. Think about how many people you know who boast of cheating on their taxes, or commiting insurance fraud.

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Buta Shi
Master Baiter


Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 122
Location: Japan


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:29 am Reply with quoteBack to top

What?

I think Nyankunde is starting to "get it" and then this stuff comes up.

Quote:
People who get banned from these boards blame it on colonialism.
Other people who would get banned would say that it is race and genetics.

In any event, for a serious discussion of the ethics of baiting, these questions must be addressed.


Look. This is not Sociology 101 or African Studies 101. The issues that you bring up above are non-issues to most of the people who spend time here. People get banned for reasons that are clearly explained. The subjects that you mentioned above are inflammatory. Frankly, they are silly arguments. Most of the people... almost all... on this site are from former colonies. Many are racial or ethnic minorities in their countries of residence. We all know that scammers of all colors and persuasions exist all over the world. Why is race an issue here? Because you want to make it one. It has been done. It's old. That... dog.... don't .... hunt...........

If you want to begin a "serious" discussion of the ethics of baiting... tell you what... start a thread... and tell us what it is all about.... I am not sure, but I think a moderator would tell you the same thing. Make sure that you define ETHICS and MORALITY very carefully... and get some consensus on your definitions before you start. Then tell us how everything happening in Nigeria now is someone else's fault. Go to it.

That is if you are SERIOUS now. If you are just entertaining, then go right ahead and do what you are doing.

m'kay?

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Nyankunde
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Buta Shi - I think you need a nice long mud-bath to help you be less irritable! Wink

Clearly this issue does interest people as evidenced by this thread. You want me to 'get it' and achieve 'consensus'. Am I to 'get' what you think and achieve 'consensus' with you? Can't we just disagree or at least have different shades of opinion?

I wasn't particularly trying to raise the issue of race. I was simply giving as examples two opposite and extreme points of view, none of which are correct in my opinion, on the questions I had raised.

Certainly I am not trying to suggest that Nigerian scammers are not responsible for their actions.

Maybe baiters should do a bit of African Studies/Sociology 101. Some of the most valuable post on this this forum come from members with a real knowledge and love of Africa/Nigeria.

Almost everynody here is from former colonies?! Well, you're really stretching defintions here. Most people here are from the US and UK. Whilst the US was once upon a time a colony it is now the world's only super-power - hardly a post-colonial position. Britain has never been a colony as far as I remember... Oh yes, a Roman Colony.

Incidentally, I think that 419eater must not stop thinking about the question about race which lingers permanently over the activity of baiting. Recently I complained to a moderator about a post which I considered to be racist. The moderator agreed and an offending sentence was removed. Ask them about it if you wish.
forestmoon
Elite Baiter


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 1847
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde - I think the bottom line is that we're all going to have different views on some of the (and particularly the moral / ethical) aspects of baiting. We're never going to reach consensus on some (or even all) of them. But I don't think it matters. We do all agree that it's a good idea or we wouldn't be here. So for us, issues such as how to get a mugu to bake a cake are more important (yes, I'm serious!).

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Buta Shi
Master Baiter


Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 122
Location: Japan


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Ahhh... nice mud bath.... Cool

I never said you had to conform to anything but reasonable grounds for argument. That would be doing everyone a favor:

Quote:
Make sure that you define ETHICS and MORALITY very carefully... and get some consensus on your definitions before you start. Then tell us how everything happening in Nigeria now is someone else's fault. Go to it.


If you want to have a fruitful discussion, that is the way to do it.

And, if you believe this....
Quote:
Maybe baiters should do a bit of African Studies/Sociology 101.


Then you are the man. Educate us.

The US was a colony. Its people went through a long bloody war for its ideals. Superpower schmuperpower that is not germaine. IMO, you are a little too quick to think that there is some special dynamic at work here, or in Nigeria. The US was not a colony? Ewkay.... Rome.... doesn't... count... ewkay... um... well... Rolling Eyes We are not really going to talk about colonization anyway... ewkay.... poverty? race? Why don't you start a thread and don't beat around the bush. Put it out there for everyone to look at... What is it that justifies, or explains the abuse that people are suffering at the hands of scammers anyway?

...going...back to... my ... mudbath now....

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Double-O
419Eater General Counsel


Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 2352
Location: Los Angeles, Ca


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

[quote="barBARRYan"]
Quote:
Whether they are from Mugu Central or Africa is a moot point to me. They are still pieces of shit to me.
chinga them.


Did you see my Chinga mi madre pics in the trophy room? Very Happy

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In Memory of Mark Time 1971 to 2005

United Kingdom x 3 Nigeria x 4 Netherlands x 4 Spain x 3 United States x 3 Canada Burkina Faso Safari

Last edited by Double-O on Wed May 26, 2004 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Double-O
419Eater General Counsel


Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 2352
Location: Los Angeles, Ca


PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

A note to posters in this thread:

Please keep in mind that negative opinions, suggestions or comments regarding other members are not permitted.

Thank you.

_________________
"I you are to contact the lawyer as soon as you can as I have don every teen needed"

In Memory of Mark Time 1971 to 2005

United Kingdom x 3 Nigeria x 4 Netherlands x 4 Spain x 3 United States x 3 Canada Burkina Faso Safari
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LiveBait
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 10


PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:21 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Nyankunde wrote:
Livebait - sorry to be vague - still working on it.


<To the mods, I read and understand your warning. I mean no offense>

Nyankunde, I have enjoyed your posts. I asked the question (that you replied to above) for one reason: I feel it is only fair that a person looking down on me from the mountain of moral high ground, tell me what that mountain is made of so that I may climb up and discuss it face to face.
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Double-O
419Eater General Counsel


Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 2352
Location: Los Angeles, Ca


PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I may have overstated the rule or even misstated it. The bottom line is personal attacks are not allowed.

I was not talking about you livebait (FYI)

Thank you.

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United Kingdom x 3 Nigeria x 4 Netherlands x 4 Spain x 3 United States x 3 Canada Burkina Faso Safari
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