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 Is scamming immoral?

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Chill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Lets look at the junkies who have to steal and rob to maintain their costly habit. Without buyer they wont be able to sell the stolen goods and without dealers they wont need to steal because there is no heroin. An evil circle but in my opinion all 3 are equally guilty


Sure, why not stick up a false analogy, and gamely try and knock down the straw man you have created!

The victims are not criminal addicts for the scammers to supply them their daily fix, the analogy does not work. There are thousands of different victims, who get conned via 419 for a myriad of different reasons. Being addicted to crime is not one I have come accross before though. Confused

In my mind, the scammers are the Number 1 guilty party; their mails to the victims are unsolicited, whilst the variety of different scams mean that in many cases, the victims have a belief in the legitimacy and legality of the deal. Naive? Sure. Greedy? Quite a few times, Equally as guilty as the scammers? Not a chance.

We all make different moral judgements, and have different value systems. But on this issue, I would not have throught many here would agree with your particular assertions...

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Master Shake
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:21 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

My question is what brought this question up after so long.

I will admit that when I started, I had similar problems, but once I started reading stories of how they have conned people, and how they have MURDERED people, I no longer feel sumpathy for whatever plight they have.

I will grant that some victims may not be totally on the up and up, but most are. ANd they do not deserve to be stolen from.

It holds true to my political philosophy:

No person, group of people, company or government has the right to initiate force or fraud against anyone.
McFlibbish
Psychedelic Monkey


Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 1294
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I spoke to a confused old lady victim on the phone once to let her know she was being scammed. She wasn't being greedy. She wanted to help. So she sent each scammer what she could...like 100 bucks or so. She didn't understand that she didn't have to respond to email. Literally. She didn't get that the emails were sent en masse. She thought they were coming to her just like they say. "I got your name by praying." or whatnot.

I don't scambait to help greedy folks who get conned into thinking they will get rich by do something illegal. I do it for people like that lady who just don't get it and are only trying to help and get bilked out of everything.

In your scenario of the junkie, you selectively picked what you wanted. Is a liar and a theif who gets conned out of what he stole immoral? Of course he is. Is a junkie who never steals a thing but who slowly loses his house, his family, his job, his life to pay for his habit immoral? Not in my eyes. To me he's just a pathetic figure who needs help and pity.

Is scamming immoral? C'mon. That's bordering on trolling here and you know it.

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Chicken
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Pepsi, honestly: I don't understand your problem or what this is all about. I even don't get the feeling, that you really want an answer. Confused
If you were not a Super Master Baiter, I would ask my mentor now, if I should start to give household tips (see guidelines)...
Don
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Spot on, chicken. I don't give a chicken shit about postcount. Just go ahead with the household tips.

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Eight
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:11 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Pepsi, if you really want to know what people here think, I suggest that you post less and read more.

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Browade
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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Pepsi,
I have delt with several victims now of both the new scams that prey upon the victim's honesty and concern for others, and where they were greedy. I felt like many do at first, that the greedy got what they deserved; but then I found the facts and figures and it was a diffrent story. Most of the victims of the greedy scams fall into the category of pathetic. FBI surveys and stats show that the mostly likely victim to bite the greedy scam is a business person who may appear prosperous, but is really in deep financial trouble. (Yeah, probably of thier own making) but the fact is that they bite because they are desperate more than greedy. Many moral and honest men will steal when they see their families hungry. (And yes desperate to me and you may be different than it is to them, but they usually would not be desperate if they were not weak)
That is why you did what you did, you felt weak and victimized and desperate to prove to yourself that you were not helpless. Each of us has our own weakness to deal with. I for one will not judge you, because where I am weak you may be strong and I may succumb to weakness also. All who seek vengence should heed the old saying that it is a dish best served cold. At least that will give you time to make sure you are not doing to someone else what hurt you so badly. Sad

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RamenDragonElok
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Joined: 17 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You seem to be implying that it's either/or. Either one is a creep or the other, or neither, but not both. No grounds for that assumption.

I'd say it's a question of the lesser of two evils. Between attacking a dealer and attacking a junky, the choice is clear-smash the dealer. Even if you call the junky a willing participant, it makes more sense to crush the problem at its source.

Also, in the case of scam-baiting you are counterattacking someone trying to rob you. Scam-target-baiting would involve attacking an unrelated third party for an imaginary crime based on the assumption of bad motives. And you'd need to invade the target's privacy considerably just to discover that he/she was in fact pretending to be a con artist in response to a real con artist.

For further information, try one of my favorite books, The Count of Monte Cristo. It's long, it's fictional, but it's a perfect illustration of why the kind of perverted vigilante justice you wreaked on the plumber, or burglars, or whoever, is just a bad idea.
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Master Shake
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

RamenDragonElok wrote:
You seem to be implying that it's either/or. Either one is a creep or the other, or neither, but not both. No grounds for that assumption.

I'd say it's a question of the lesser of two evils. Between attacking a dealer and attacking a junky, the choice is clear-smash the dealer. Even if you call the junky a willing participant, it makes more sense to crush the problem at its source.


^^^^


WELL SAID!!!!!
Richard Head
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Joined: 28 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Is it immoral to want to make a quick buck? Of course not. If it was there would be no lotteries, no gambling, no church bingo's etc. Most of us here are probably guilty of buying a lottery, raffle ticket at some point and thinking about how nice it would be to win... As has been noted in previous posts, some of the victims are in desperate need of quick cash, others are dreaming that it could be true. They are not immoral people, they didn't ask to be approached by the scammer.

As for Pepsi's comment
Quote:
The charity scams I think came later. I started to get them only late last year.
these have been around as long as 419 letters. Are they new to the internet? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know, but they have been around for many years. As long as I can remember, there have been scammers using other peoples charity to help themselves.

You must think that what you did was wrong, otherwise why would you arrange for an alibi. If all of the stuff that was stolen was marked in such a way as to be identified as yours, all you needed to do was contact the police and they would have arrested the people. You then would have gotten your stuff back, and helped prevent others from suffering your fate. Sure you got most of your stuff back, but the thieves are still on the street able to break into more people's houses, shops etc and cause even more hurt.

I will step down from my soapbox now. Wink

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Pepsi
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Joined: 21 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I read an interviue of a Nigerian politician, not sure if he was the president. He was asked about what they were going to do about the scammers. He said he was surprised that someone would actually believe in the rubbish being sent around by the scammers.

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Richard Head
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

P.T. Barnum said " you will never go broke by underestimating the intelligence of your audience". Or something to that effect, and he became quite a rich man.

Scammers work off of ignorance, and naivetee. The myth of the corrupt third world official (might even be true in many instances) makes their story just believable enough.
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Reprob8
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Pepsi,

Please read this post by Superbad.
http://www.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=210441&highlight=#210441

This woman was not greedy, just naiive and trying to make a better life for her daughter. Should she be punished for that? I certainly wish everyone was smart enough to see through these scams but, unfortunately, there will always be people who read these scam letters and see a possible way out of their troubles.

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McFlibbish
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Pepsi wrote:
I read an interviue of a Nigerian politician, not sure if he was the president. He was asked about what they were going to do about the scammers. He said he was surprised that someone would actually believe in the rubbish being sent around by the scammers.


and on that...

For general carpet deodorizing, sprinkle baking soda on carpeting monthly, or as needed, before going to bed and let it set overnight. Vacuum the next day. Here is a home-made carpet deodorizer recipe:

1/2 cup baking soda
1/2 cup cornstarch
15 drops of your favorite essential oil fragrance

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"thank you may God reward you for your Evil did to me yesterday." - Prince Christk
"BARON OF LIARS,DECIEVER,THIEF,EVIL MINDED,CRIMINAL,DEVILISH INTENTION,WICKEDNESS ETC. HELL FIRE IS AT YOUR DOOR STEP." -Chinonso Peter

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

... and I think that will probably cause someone to turn a key in the lock on this one ...

What! only half a cup of baking soda?? Dear oh dear!
The Cheshire Cat
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Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 98
Location: NZ and still enjoying the sunshine!


PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Oooh! Carpet tips! My favourite!

Red wine satins can be easily removed by liberally applying salt while the stain is still wet. Don't rub but leave till the wine has soaked into the salt and then simply vacumn it up.
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straitjacket
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Oh I have a great tip! Smile

If you have a horse and want to control the length of their hoofs (hooves?) simply add some flint to the gravel area inside their enclosure. This has the effect of wearing down the hoofs - not too much, but just enough.. Wink
straitjacket
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

And another animal related tip, helpful for visitors to Australia

If you ever have a kangaroo come up to you and put both the front paws on your shoulders, now is a good time to run, for they are about to attack you with their back legs, possibly disembowelling you. Wink
Master Shake
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:56 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Shake's Generic Life Tips #1

-- Just as you should never put sugar in a gas tank, you should never put gas in a sugarbowl
-- Spam can be used as a decorative candleholder
-- Chicks dig dudes that use the words "Chicks", "Dig" and "Dude".
-- Legos make an excellent omlette filling
-- Believe everything you see on TV. After all, if it wasn't true, it wouldn't be on the telly, now would it?
-- It is a myth that police officers like dougnuts. In reality, they enjoy gravy. So next time one pulls you over, throw a ladleful of gravy at him. He'll thank you later.
-- That game for the PC WILL work on a mac. All you need to do is gut the case, and shove a PC in it.
-- Playing a record backwards will not reveal satanic messages, but rather it WILL reveal tasty tex-mex recipies.
-- When The Who or the Rolling Stones say its a "farewell" tour, you can trust them.
-- Fear the following words in a sentence: "CULTURE", "CLUB", and "REUNION"
mrsbean
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Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 1775
Location: North of the Rio Grande, South of Alaska


PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Browade wrote:
Pepsi,
I have delt with several victims now of both the new scams that prey upon the victim's honesty and concern for others, and where they were greedy.
...
Most of the victims of the greedy scams fall into the category of pathetic. FBI surveys and stats show that the mostly likely victim to bite the greedy scam is a business person who may appear prosperous, but is really in deep financial trouble.


And, I have to add, a great many of the victims oten times seem to be, from my short experience, not the most emotionally or mentally stable people. If a potential victim is lonely, depressed, mentally unbalanced, not in full possession of their faculties due to age and/or illness, or are otherwise emotionally or mentally vulnerable, they make very ripe targets. They may get involved for reasons that have absolutely positively nothing to do with greed and everything to do with having a void in their lives that needs filling.

And you know what? In my opinion, no one, and I mean, no one deserves being scammed, no matter how stupid or greedy they may be. And scammers sure don't deserve to profit from lying and stealing. There is no way you can excuse scamming as being moral, or the victims as deserving of being victimized. It's like saying you deserved being robbed for having things worth stealing and living near thieves. Or that someone deserves being mugged and assaulted because they took a shortcut through the bad part of town. Exercising bad judgment doesn't merit the heartache and shame some of these victims go through.

And breaking into someone else's place to retrieve your stolen property? You already know these people are capable of committing a crime. I suppose you're lucky they didn't catch you at it or figure out it was you and add another, more serious crime to the list. Or do you think every crime should be subject to the death penalty? I hardly think the Norwegian businessman's crime was big enough to constitute his death, no matter how big the tax bill was. You probably weren't implying that it was, but once you get on the slippery slope of saying "greedy" victims deserve to lose money, what else do they deserve? Do they deserve to take their innocent family members along for the ride? Do they deserve being kidnapped? Killed?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You seem to want to argue that victims who are greedy or otherwise breaking the law deserve what they get, yet the scammers are justified, so long as they confine themselves to these greedy people. (Which, we all know they don't.) You also seem to want to argue that breaking and entering, theft and destruction of property were crimes when they happened to you, but you were perfectly justified in doing the same to someone else. Crimes are crimes. You can't qualify crime in relation to the "goodness" of the victim. Baiting potential victims is a ridiculous notion. Perhaps we should also see if we can lure some out of towners into dark alleyways so they can get mugged by the local gangs, while we're at it? Or see if we can hook some gradeschool kids on drugs?

Please tell me you were just really, really bored or really, really drunk when starting down this line of reasoning. Because it looks, as others have pointed out, quite trollish.

By the way, I'm all out of household hints for carpets, so I'll just say that if you have static in your hair thanks to winter's dry air and/or hats, just carry one of those dryer sheets with you, and smooth it over your hair when you remove your hat. You hair will lie flat, you won't zap people, and you have a nice, fresh scent, as well. No. Really.

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The Cheshire Cat
Wannabe Baiter


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 98
Location: NZ and still enjoying the sunshine!


PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Another carpet one:

If you drop your contact lenses in a carpet and you don't find it you can do this : put a nylon sock in the beginning of the vacuum cleaner and you turn it on, vacuum the area and the contact lenses will stick and it will be very easy to find it.

Also:

Emergency Shoe Shine --- For a spur-of-the-moment job, rub your leather shoes with the inside of a banana peel; then clean and buff with a paper towel or napkin.

BTW - excellent post from MrsBean. I feel it summed up the whole issue beautifully. Thank you.
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Capt. Ahab
Master of Master Baiters


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Posts: 525
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:51 am Reply with quoteBack to top

No household tips, but the good Ship Lollypop's Alarm just went off....

How many times has this been discussed ?? Do I have enough fingers and toes to count ??

Image

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Osborne Fruman Hess
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:59 am Reply with quoteBack to top

EgyptKah wrote:
And another animal related tip, helpful for visitors to Australia

If you ever have a kangaroo come up to you and put both the front paws on your shoulders, now is a good time to run, for they are about to attack you with their back legs, possibly disembowelling you. Wink


Geez... Now that you mention it, I already knew it but had forgotten. Not that I plan to visit Australia soon Smile But it's quite amazing that they have so much strength!

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Frodo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:59 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think we've exhausted the topic here. It's been discussed many times over, so if it really interests you, use the search function and read even more about it. I'm locking this on my way out.
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