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 The cold reality of 419 scams - please read

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mort
Master of Master Baiters


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 623


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Serious and Funny baits are Ying/Yang IMHO.


clapping clapping clapping

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Seymour Butts
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 58
Location: Phocea


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I agree with Tweety when he says that fun baits can be beneficial to the more productive (in terms of fighting 419) straight baits. If a scammer thinks he's wise to baiters because he can recognise silly names/mad clergymen/monty-pythonesque forms, he may be all the more easily fooled when confronted with a baiter who does not use any of these things.

I myself do only fun baits, mainly because I only bait from work and therefore don't really have time to delve into a more serious level of baiting - but hats off to all the straight baiters out there

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Tweety
Baiting Guru


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 3095
Location: The Netherlands


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Seymour Butts wrote:
I agree with Tweety when he says that fun baits can be beneficial to the more productive (in terms of fighting 419) straight baits.


Don't forget it keeps the spirit up as well. Baiting would be a very hard and unthankfull job without funny baits. Also, it reels in many newbies of which some will take up straigh baiting later on. Master Shake said it best: It's Ying and Yang.

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Harry Covair
Master Baiter


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 155
Location: 43 and change North, 80ish West


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I want to toss my breakfast.

My hope is that Rian et al will be able to look at the victim’s emails to back-track this modality. With that, I hope that we find some web site that was a part of the scam.

From there, I want to find out that the hosting company was warned. I want Old Coaster and sandy_beech to then write the most scathing message the owner has ever seen.

I want some lawyer in whatever country hosted the site to make suing the hosting company his/her hobby. I want that hosting company to worry about being charged with a criminal offence as well.

With the desire to make something good come out of something so tragic, I want precedence that we can head-whomp hosting company owners with.

I really want to thank Rian for starting this, and all the eaters who jumped in at his call. I will say a prayer for you all, as protecting the weak from harm has to be a hallmark in any religion.

I want to thank Rian as well for his proactive work. When I think of the resources the police services in my country has for this, I hold my head down. I think of the bureaucracy when I hear "we cannot comment on an ongoing investigation". That is so full of shite. Why not just take the words protection and prevention out of your job description. I guess nothing will happen here until there is a dead Canadian found, when we can complete the
Quote:
“apathy, apathy, apathy, crisis, panic, stupid policy implementation, apathy, apathy, apathy”
cycle.

So, there is the call to action. No less than the best fake-bank cannons we have, under the direction of the finest anti-419 peace officer in the world.

/rant

Oh yeah... my baits are not that funny, but they are why I too started baiting.

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Dr Hugh G Rection
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Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 996
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

someday...there may be a baiter who is a REAL mean badass, and will lure mugus to meetings, and slay them....sounds like a great horror flick....jason meets the mugu

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mort
Master of Master Baiters


Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 623


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@Hugh: Tempting thought but: Eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind Cool Wink

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"go to hill and eat shit madam, ogun and olokun isango go key your father" (Roland van Edward)
"bush man you live in small village benin city" (Roland van Edward)
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Lord Vader
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Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

They will catch these guys eventually. They left a truckload of traces. Ruthless criminals yes. But very stupid ones too. This is not one ghetto kid slaying another, that´s a gang of Nigerians slaying a foreigner in the Republic of South Africa. They do not have the death penalty, but these guys are facing 50 years of prison. And that should be less than pleasant for them.
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Shiver Metimbers
419Eater Admin


Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 7460


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

When you told me about this the other day LV as you know I was disgusted, but not surprised going by some of my previous experiences. It really does bring home the importance of what we do, what we all do. These vile excuses for human beings need to be wiped out, and fast.

Just to let new members here know, there are a LOT of people here who work silently behind the scenes doing VAST amounts of very important and highly productive work, a lot of which is never (and probably can never be) published.


Last edited by Shiver Metimbers on Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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shuntbuzz
Illeterate pinhead


Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 628
Location: Ministry of Illeteracy, Compruhension Dept


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I too was saddened and shocked by this and I think that it has changed what I want to do in terms of baiting. The fun stuff just doesn't seem as fun anymore.

It really does make you realise who the real enemy is and puts some of the recent silliness into perspective. Every moment distracted from fighting the lads means more people are put at risk.

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Lord Vader
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

But we NEED the funny baiting and the entertaining stories, while we are never to forget that these are ruthless criminals, some of them real monsters, like in this case. But without the cheerful aspect of baiting, it would be very, very depressing and so I hope to read a lot of entertaining baiting in the future, as it keeps the spirits up.
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shuntbuzz
Illeterate pinhead


Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 628
Location: Ministry of Illeteracy, Compruhension Dept


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Fair point LV.

I guess as I have a family it kinda just makes me want to step back and re-assess things as their safety and piece of mind comes first.

I get enough grief for the amount of time I spend here - if my wife knew this had happened she would flay me alive for keeping going.

I just want to make sure I get my priorities right.

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"You are one of the antichrist"
"You are not a human being"

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rogermegoodly
419Eater is my life


Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 380
Location: 24,902 mi / 40,076 km from where I am right now...


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

As one who came on board to do the funny stuff, although my baits haven't really been published, after just a short period I shifted to the more serious side. I live in a large American city with a sizable population of people associated with the lads. I have performed very careful recon missions to gather intel on certain activities.
I don't bait as many as I did when I was doing for humor, and I take plenty of precautions when I do anything regarding these criminals. My job takes me all over the place, so I spend a lot of time in airports. Being one of those people who are naturally interested in other people, I tend to be very perceptive about what is going on around me and tend to notice things that others don't seem to see (or possibly don't want to see).
A lot of what I do now involves the behind-the-scenes work and I make sure that I don't expose any real info about myself where the criminals are concerned. There is at least one member of this forum that has met me in person, and I have had exchanges with a few others who know personal details about me, but all-in-all I'm fairly anonymous even here.
I enjoy a good laugh, and will get some funny things from the lads when they present themselves, but I'm really out to wipe these scum from the face of the planet.
This particular story really points out the need for us to be vigilant and to get as many real victims out of the scammers grasp as we can. Like many others who have posted here today, I am also increasing my effort to achieve the goal. It may be a little early, but this is my New Years' resolution. Let's make 2005 a year that scammers all over the world feel the impact of what we do to a degree they've not yet felt.
And, as has been stated, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of the victim. I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for the perpetrators of this particularly heinous crime.
To all of you who worked on gathering information, and to the rest of you, new members and old-timers, I wish you all the best this holiday season.
Happy Hunting!

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KMan
Master Baiter


Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 139
Location: Here, there and everywhere


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This is clearly a tragedy and I'm very sorry it happened. I guess I'm a little surprised that given all the publicity about 419 scams someone would actually venture to Africa to meet these people. What was the victim thinking?

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I am sorry but, i must say that you talk like uncivilise America, who will always say kiss my ass. and that is the only thing he knows how to say."
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Far_Cry
Bull Goose Loony


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 623
Location: In your bath. Timezone: GMT +2


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Holy fuck. This just scared the living hell out of me... I'm going more serious again now, I'll be back in the bank forum and I'll track those suckers down!

Still can't believe this...

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mrsbean
Elite Baiter


Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 1775
Location: North of the Rio Grande, South of Alaska


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Jeepers, I take a few hours off from the forums and come back to this...

There's not much I can say that hasn't already been said, but I do want to add my sypathies. Not only to the victim's family, but to all the fine folks who tried to help, be they law enforcement or baiter. I know I would have been deeply affected as well, if I had happened to pop in while this had been going on, instead of coming in to the news after it was all over. That was sobering and saddening enough.

This definitely should be some required new baiter reading. As others have said, it's usually the funny stuff that piques your interest, but you ought to read some of the serious stuff (Monika, stories of victims who have been killed, etc.) before you even think about doing your first bait.

I only wish that all the law enforcement in every country were as conscientious and open to working with the baiter community as Rian is. It angers me that I've gotten calls on my K7 number from lads who have Canadian cell phones, yet there seems to be no interest in catching them, from what I've seen so far. It shouldn't take a victim death to get the police interested. Sadly, in most countries, that seems to be the case.

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I believe that you cannot get this type of opportunity again till you enter grave, you are such a bounch of stupid that I have never seen. - Jerry Gezi
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Browade
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 59
Location: On the beat for 35 years


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

One of you just skirted around a great idea that would really deal the lads misery. Rather than a scathing letter and a law suit, why not a campaign to get the e-mail providers and ISPs to provide law enforcement needed info upon duly documented official request; rather than the usual song and dance about subpoenas and court orders. Number one if they are in South Africa and I am in the USA my judge won't even issue a subpoena because it is worthless outside the jurisdiction of his court and if you are lucky enough to get them to issue one, it is like Rian was saying, it takes several weeks.
In the past I have jumped through their hoops and still get ignored because their staff lawyers decide that they don't have to honor the subpoena because the issuing court has no standing where the information is stored. Even in the USA where they guard such information religiously many of the phone companies have woke up and only require the police to submit the request on department letterhead and they do confiirm that it comes from the police and then they are happy to realease the customers name and address information. In most cases that is all that we need right then. If the case calls for records of past activity, we are happy to get warrants and subpoenas; but in a case like what Rian and the guys in SA had this week, that delay could result in sommething bad.
It is my opinion that if your IP or e-mail address or phone number is used for criminal activity, it is not an invasion of your privacy for the service provider to give the authorities the users name and address. Especially when you can go to Net Detective or People Search and get it for $39.95 a shot.

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Nelsonsbattle
419Eater is my life


Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 433
Location: New Zealand


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I was shocked watching this happened on Tuesday. Because of my time zone, the story had already unfolded when I started to read it.

But I want everyone here to know that some of the experienced members of 419eater who are also members of 419legal did some fantastic work helping Rian, especially with analysis of IPs etc. I'm sure Rian and his crew were very thankful for the help they received from the baiting community.

Now about humourous baiting. I don't think I'll be doing much from here on. I'm already slamming the door on poor Samull because of this, maybe only a few weeks early, but early all the same.

But, there is a place for humourous baits! How did those experienced baited who helped 419legal get into baiting and develop their skills? And consider if we all started baiting just South African scammers, then there'd be people being lured to Nigeria and other west African countries, and maybe being murdered there.

So if we stopped baiting scammers anywhere else but South Africa, if we stopped closing fake banks, or warning victims when we came across them, then more people will be being scammed and maybe injured or killed.

Let's not overreact. But let's try to make it so that NO SCAMMER, ANYWHERE is safe. Let's do that for the family of this poor man.

And finally, while we all know the sun rises and sets with the 419legal crew from SAP, I don't think I'd like to be a scammer anywhere near Andalusia, Alabama, right now. I'd like to welcome Browade and another motivated Police Department to the world of scam busting.

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�This is quite unfortanate you have basterdise every thing we have been working for a long time.
�the photo you send to me ..... i am have six with you in dreem here� Lad after he got a topless photo of my baiting character.
"I have just came out from the bank with the most humiliation of my life." Dissapointed Lad after a trip to the MG agency.
"tell you die, fuck you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ooooooo" Samull the scammer on being burned
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Rev Mesem British
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 11
Location: A small, blue-green world in one of the less fashionable sectors of the galaxy


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

After reading this, I feel both upset and angry of what has happened, but also like many others have said, it has made me more determined to do a better job and to get more involved.

I don't post much here, although I usually have a few baits on the go at any moment in time.

Personally, I think that this needs mass publicity to get it in to raise awareness of the whole 419 problem. The world as a whole needs to know how to recognise a scam and to be safe. It has always been seen as a subject of humour that some people are stupid enough to send money to these scammers, but it stops becomming funny as soon as something like this happens. It might just be the thing to get people to sit up and listen for a change, something good HAS to come out of this, or else this person's life has been lost for nothing, and that CANNOT be allowed to happen.

We cannot allow ourselves to become depressed and give up on the work that we do, this shows that now more than ever how important our work here is.

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spiny norman
Master Baiter


Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 124
Location: 6 hours behind GMT


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

shuntbuzz wrote:
Fair point LV.

I guess as I have a family it kinda just makes me want to step back and re-assess things as their safety and piece of mind comes first. ....



It has me re-thinking my safety as well. I will be putting in a few more layers of anonimity before taking on any new baits.

This is a sobering reminder of the type of criminal we are dealing with.

Prayers sent for the family of the victim. Sad

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.Please understand that am a very strict human being and whatever I do is born out of deep thinking.That I asked you to reconfirm your address does not mean I dont have it, ok.So dont think am stupid.
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Mark has agree to help us and send us the form to fill and we thank God we have fill the form he gave to us so all this kept me busy. (I should hope so!)
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kleindoofy
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Joined: 24 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

BulgingBlueVein wrote:
... but baiting and gathering info that can hopefully save someone's life is what a lot of us who don't publish do ...


Would it be possible to publish a paradigm of a "straight bait" somewhere here on this site and name it as such, so that those interested in leaning more in that direction after having been brought in by the comedy can research the difference in method from the comical baits independently, i.e. independent of a mentor?

Or would this perhaps in any way compromise your efforts?

If such is already available on this site please
1. excuse me for asking before searching,
2. point me to it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Straight bait SA style:

Slippery In S.A. - The One That Got Away
Lord Vader
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Location: Besieging Minas Lagos


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Laughing
Can´t stop being funny in baits? Tutorial needed?
1. Try to think what someone who was genuinely excited about the prospect of soon being a millionaire would do. They would comply with most things they´d be asked for.
2. If it becomes clear that a lad wants you to travel (at this point this is pretty much limited to SA as we know that we have law enforcement there who act), try to not push them. Wait for them to tell you when to come and where to go.
3. Put all communication on file for Rian´s boys.
4. Before "going" (a week or so at least, stall the mugu if necessary), contact Rian or any of the 419legal admins or mods with details and wait for a "Go ahead" and confirmation of a trap being set up before confirming modalities with the lad.
5. Do NOT agree on the lad booking a hotel for you. They have accomplices with the staff of their chosen hotels that will warn them of traps being set up.
6. Do NOT ask for a picture of them with their underwear or fish on their head and a sign saying "I love to felch wombats".

Remember that the initial email has to be sent to you, not grabbed from "surplus scam letters" and that it MUST be the lad that asks YOU to meet him, not the other way around. Everything else will be considered entrapment.
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kleindoofy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Lord Vader wrote:
1. Try to think what someone who was genuinely excited about the prospect of soon being a millionaire would do ...


Points 1. and 6.: Yes, that is what I basically expected and had in mind myself. Thank you very much. The further points (2.-5.) are extremely informative - but I'm bringing this thread off topic and am in the wrong forum Embarassed

@Eatyo Urgreens: ditto thank you.

I'll see you all again in the appropriate forum. (quick exit stage left - curtain)
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Eight
Retired Moderator


Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 8711
Location: UK


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

My thoughts and condolences are with the family of the victim, of course, but I also wish to pay my respects to Rian and his team. They are at the front line dealing face-to-face with the vile and amoral people who do evil things like this. They are putting themselves in danger on a daily basis, while we are (hopefully) baiting from anonymity. Anyone who has the guts to become a police officer has my admiration and gratitude. I know I don't and that makes me doubly grateful that there are people like Rian out there.

Rian and his team, and all the baiters here who had a hand in trying to help trace the victim will no doubt be having a tough time dealing with this right now, so my thoughts are with you all.

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Tweety
Baiting Guru


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 3095
Location: The Netherlands


PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

mrsbean wrote:
I only wish that all the law enforcement in every country were as conscientious and open to working with the baiter community as Rian is.


Let's hope so. IIRC there will be a big international conference somewhere not too far off which deals with the successes/failures from the 419legal project and baiter<->police interaction.

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