How large is the Romance scam threat?

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Hello I'm New here! Joined: 08 Nov 2016 Posts: 6

Hello 419hookers, I'm 41:50:54
I decided to join this forum because I'm working on some investigations.

I live in the US, and I'm a full time college student. I study cyber security, networking, and digital forensics.

Someone close to me was scammed by a romance scammer who is part of a large ring, in the not too distant past, and that has led me to the path I am on now. When I investigated their case, I discovered the identity of the scammer who was responsible. This person lost x amount of dollars to the scammer.

8,000 < x < 50,000

I went to the authorities with the victim, put the scammer right in their lap, and they said the financial loss wasn't enough to warrant investigation into this case alone. So the authorities didn't even look at all the evidence I had compiled, which was very significant. Furthermore, there are jurisdictional challenges, as the scammer does not reside on the North American continent.

So we were left with two choices. One, I do nothing, and nothing gets done to catch the scammer, or prevent them from scamming other people. Two, I do whatever I can to infiltrate this scam ring, to find out whatever I can, and try to retrieve whatever money I can, and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

This person that is a victim that I mentioned is very close to me, so the first option isn't even a consideration.

So I have been working towards that for quite some time now, and I recently discovered a person that my victim knows also recently became a victim of a romance scam. This has brought me into a new chapter, and a new path. The ring I am now investigating may or may not be the same one I was previously investigating.

So through the experience of what has happened, I have gained first hand experience and knowledge of how big a threat cyber crime is, because I see how big just one little niche; romance scamming, is. It's absolutely massive, and at least where I'm from, authorities are not doing shit about it.

Just think, what if you could change the world? What if you could truly make a difference? What if you could bring down a large ring of scammers that has scammed hundreds of people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars?

I think we all know that this niche in the wide world of cyber crime, this romance scamming, is a massive problem. It's the wild west out there, and in aging populations like the US, there is fruit everywhere for scammers to pick. Think about how many older people are now getting into social media and online dating.

The people that I see being targeted are older people, maybe they're divorced, retired, disabled, they're vulnerable people. They're not tech savvy, and they are completely defenseless. And again, the authorities do absolutely nothing!

I want to open up a conversation about this, and I'm going to assert what I have found to be true.

If something can be done to bring down a scam ring, it should be done. It is worth it. It is a noble cause. It is not a terrible thing that should be shunned into the darkness.

I see posts by people on this forum saying they've still got scammers on the hook.

To what end? Is there a reeling in that happens? What is "reeling them in"?

I advocate something that is unfortunately unspeakable around here. The only way to bring down these scam rings is to own them. Own every f***ing one you can, and go on to the next. Not willy nilly half baked attempts, I'm talking about specific, deliberate, planned, researched attempts.

This is 419 eating, and I tell you, I'm mighty f***ing hungry.

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:17 pm

Welcome to eater. I'm not sure which country you're in, but it took me a full beat to realize by 419hookers, you're probably referring to baiting-by-hook and not prostitutes... but ether way, Welcome! Very Happy

Sorry to hear of your loved one getting scammed. This is horrible and frustrating and an experience shared, sadly, by many here. The response you received from the authorities is also, again sadly, typical.

As for this:

Quote:

I advocate something that is unfortunately unspeakable around here. The only way to bring down these scam rings is to own them. Own every f***ing one you can, and go on to the next.

I'm not sure if "around here" refers to your community or to eater? If you're talking about within your own circle, I find that some people just don't get scambaiting and there isn't a lot you can do to pursuade them. If you mean around eater, I can assure you that there are many of us, myself included, that adhere to the "own f-ing everyone you can and go on to the next" philosophy.

What can we really do? Well, the bad news is that the scamming problem, as you've been learning, is huge and sometimes it can feel like anything we do is a drop in the bucket. On the other hand, everything we do do does help. Some scammers are so involved with their baits, they're too busy for real victims or otherwise unable to scam...sometimes for long periods of time. Some burn bridges with their gangs or lose access to their scamming bank accounts and money mules. A few have been arrested.

Others will be by with their thoughts, but hope this helps.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 08 Nov 2016 Posts: 6

Hi Padme, thank you for your reply!

I'm referring to this forum rule:

"We do not support the sending of viruses and "trojans" to the scammers, nor attempts to hack, phish or hijack their email accounts and/or computers. Viruses and "trojans" will be unknowingly spread to the computers of innocent people and we are only trying to make it difficult for the scammers. On top of that, the spreading of viruses and hacking attempts is an illegal activity in the UK, where this Board is located, as well as many other jurisdictions. Please do not start topics on such subjects. Such threads can and will be deleted on sight."
https://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176248

To be blunt, I do not want to make things difficult for scammers and their scam rings. I want to destroy them, and the only way to do that is to take over their accounts, access their computers and networks, and then let sunlight be the best disinfectant.

I also differ in my approach from eaters in organizational structure and tactics. Things are done openly here, with input from many. A good scam ring would be watching this forum, and you jeopardize your operations by doing it out in the open. In order to be effective, you have to be covert, and place a huge emphasis on the principle of least privilege, where individuals are only allowed access to the least amount of data, or resources necessary to complete their task. Operational security, and covert tactics is paramount, if there is to be success.

So I guess ultimately, I'd like to join the community here, and get to know everyone. My organization is very different than eaters, but I think over time we will find we are mutually beneficial to each other.

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:13 pm

Our rules are in place because we cannot condone or allow discussion of illegal activities here, and because of this we will not engage in arguments about the relative effectiveness of such methods.

The publicity efforts we carry out through our sister site Scamwarners.com are a key part of what we do against romance (and other) scammers: doing as much as possible to publicise their approaches and details used, as well as providing support for victims and near-victims.

Baiting, under the terms of our rules is another way to fight this battle, and we do it not only by having conversations with individual scammers and wasting their time or more... but also by building relationships with the powers that be -- for example in reporting bank accounts used by scammers, and warning victims who have been duped into receiving payments (as well as taking down fake sites, although this is less relevant to the typical romance scam). None of this would be possible without building relationships with relevant bodies, not possible if we were seen to condone illegal activities.

If you are willing to play by our rules while you're here, you're very welcome to join in, if there are areas where you feel you can contribute. But a major shift in our priorities along the lines you suggest is not possible.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 08 Nov 2016 Posts: 6

Hi firehouse5, you can call me APT if you like.

Thank you for your reply!

I totally understand the need for 419eater's structure and organizational composition, and let me say right now that I think you guys are a wonderful organization, and you are really needed in the world.

I guess ultimately, you guys ... and I don't know how you relate, organizationally, but I do recognize you are a moderator. But I guess ultimately, you guys find some efficacy in the legal system, and you find that it works for you.

I do not find that, because of my experience with the legal system, here in America, in these regards.

Many months ago, I put the name, city and country of residence, work history, associates, social media accounts, and email addresses of the man who scammed my mother, all in the lap of the FBI. Many months later, that same man still checks into social media, and almost certainly still scams people.

This is not efficacy. The system didn't work for me, so why should I work within it?

Additionally, I reject the system on a philosophical basis. There can only be efficacy through direct action.

Having said that, I do not advocate 419eaters changing their priorities. I merely offer a critique from a unique perspective, and I want to contribute what I am able to, and learn from your community.

On that note, what do you mean when you refer to taking down scam websites? What sorts of scams typically involve this, and what sorts of methods are involved in taking the sites down?

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:58 pm

Sorry to hear that the FBI were not any help but indeed, the international nature of these scams creates all sorts of jurisdictional problems that we are certainly well aware of.... otherwise we would not be so involved in other means to hurt the scammers.

May I suggest if you have not already done so, posting information about the scammer over at scamwarners.com (or sending to me by private message), of course making sure the content doesn't refer to your mother's identity or your own. This way at least some details are visible to searches and might help future victim(s) avoid being scammed by this same person/group.

Regarding fake sites: you can see a list of examples in our dedicated fake site forums here. One classic fake site approach is the "fake bank" used in traditional 419 scams to provide evidence of a large sum just waiting for a victim (complete with non-secure "login" and showing a balance in the millions). These days there are huge varieties of different types of scams that rely on fake sites to help convince victims that some aspect of the scam is real -- everything from fake shipping companies, to governmental agencies, to fake charities.

How do we kill them? Through research, documentation and complaints to hosts/registrars. this is what I meant above by developing relationships to do this sort of thing "above board". Has it worked? Well, the more than 36,000 entries in our "Fake sites: offline" forum suggests huge impact on scammers (not just their time and effort, but also lost money for any paid hosting, as well as broken websites that no longer support their messages to potential victims).

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:10 pm

@41:50:54, what we do is not a question of "efficacy". It's a question of doing what we can without breaking the law, ourselves. Becoming a scumbag to "destroy" a scumbag has no efficacy that I can see. That said, rules can be bent, as you will see if you look through several of the baits posted here - especially in the "Greatest Hits" section. But it takes practice and skill.

Welcome. Pull up a chair. Sip a cold one. Relax and learn from some of the best baiters on the planet.

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:15 pm

Welcome to Eater, and I, too, am sorry you have witnessed those close to you fall victims to a scam.

Here's the thing, I tend to reject any premise that includes, "the only way to do that." It's shortsighted, unimaginative, and, frankly, lazy. Nothing has ever been accomplished by accepting there is only one way.

Quote:

In order to be effective, you have to be covert, and place a huge emphasis on the principle of least privilege, where individuals are only allowed access to the least amount of data, or resources necessary to complete their task. Operational security, and covert tactics is paramount, if there is to be success.

I don't know much about baiting Romance lads, but yeah, don't leave anything out where people can see.

I would propose, and I believe many here and at ScamWarners would agree, education is the key. Teaching people to search the internet, how scams work, the signs to look for, and to be suspicious are among the things that should be readily shared. That's how you hit them. Take away the number of viable targets.

Quote:

But I guess ultimately, you guys find some efficacy in the legal system, and you find that it works for you.

I'm the Mod with the least amount of time at Eater. I have less time than many here. In fact, I'm a bit of an idiot. But, I think we, as a group, have ethics. Perhaps that is why there is an uproar when someone says we "scam the scammers." It has nothing to do with the legal system. It has to do with right and wrong.

I'm sorry the FBI disappointed you. Trust me, I feel your pain. But, as firehouse5 said, you're dealing with international implications. How would, I don't know, someone from Brazil feel if they reported a FB scammer from Uzbekistan to their local authorities and nothing came of it? Investigating authorities of one country really don't have a ton of control over having someone arrested in another country.

Quote:

There can only be efficacy through direct action.

Again, I reject this. Or maybe "efficacy" has a different meaning between there and here.

Quote:

I merely offer a critique from a unique perspective

It's not as unique as you might think. That said, we will continue along doing what we do, knowing the impact it does have, in a legal manner. Mostly because, well, it helps us sleep and keeps our ethics in check.

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:29 pm

Like the others, I sympathise with you having to witness your mother being scammed, but I also disagree with your statement that only direct action is effective. I can guarantee you that we achieve far more through publicising the scammer's fake details on Scamwarners and other anti-scam sites for future victims to find (sure, the odd scammer will find themselves listed, but many more victims will find the details and avoid being scammed) and reporting the bank accounts that they are using to the relevant authorities, than you will ever do with your illegal activities.

I also think you show a lack of understanding about what you are dealing with. In particular -

41:50:54 wrote:

scammers and their scam rings.

Very few 419 scammers are members of organised rings - they may have loose affiliations with other scammers (selling scripts renting mules, etc.), but the vast majority of them are individuals scamming on their own and would be more than happy to "chop the dolla of the lad at the next PC in the cybercafe".

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 08 Nov 2016 Posts: 6

Yeah, it's definitely a different ethos.

Nice to meet you everyone, thanks for your replies.

Thursten3rd, I object to the term scumbag.

B8der, I've only been investigating two cases thus far, and in both cases, there are multiple scammers involved. The perpetrators in these two cases might be different, but they both have organization among several people. Perhaps this is atypical and my sample size is lol, but it's just what I've seen so far.

Finally, I will add that I will announce the name of my organization, upon our first news release, which will occur after our first successful take down. All relevant information in the case will be made publicly available for both 419eaters and sister site Scamwarriors, and global law enforcement to investigate.

Cheers.

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:23 pm

There is more than one way to "f-cking own" a lad and/or their network and, respectfully, I suggest you take a look around here before you write eater off as ineffective or less effective. In particular, pay attention to the signature icons in people's posts. An Sand Timer

means someone has taken up a scammer's time/bandwidth consistently for a year or more, pig icons represent reported bank accounts and stolen cards, flags represent fraudulent websites taken down, this - Tattoo

means a lad has been tattoo'd (see bware419ers post above). If you see

it means that a baiter has gotten a scammer arrested.

ETA - icons explained.

https://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=118861

Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:10 pm

"the authorities didn't even look at all the evidence I had compiled, which was very significant"

It is important to keep in mind something about how you are gathering the evidence while documenting an online scam - that way must be accepted in any court if the scammer will ever get prosecuted.

Your anger and frustration are understandable, but... being too emotionally involved might affect the final goal you want to achieve.

Not all the scammers are the same despite of the similar games they are playing.

While I agree with B8er about "very few 419 scammers are members of organised rings", my very limited experience in this field proved in at least few cases that romance scams were only the "introduction" to the bigger scam operations and significant areas of fake romance stories happening online would lead a victim to what you are calling "scam rings".

Yes, those scam rings are real in certain areas and yes, they can be hurt. Even if LE cannot do much every time, there are legal ways of hurting the scammers. Even if we cannot do it all the time, at least we try. Education is needed, awareness is also needed - but, above all, there is a team effort of doing the right things in the right ways. Hope you will stay around for a while and learn the formal way the things are done here. There are few basic elements needed to be learned properly before you decide your next step and you might find that here are people trying to do the right things in the best ways possible. No one is perfect and no one knows everything - but we can all learn and find the valid options we can use together.

Crusades are interesting. The only problem is that usually the knight of lost causes gets overwhelmed at some point and die, without making any of the changes he was dreaming about. If that knight is making mistakes, the price would be paid by the ones left behind.

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