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 Why not examine some of the reasons behind the growth in 419

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dangermouse
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi,

Now I don't want my post to be taken the wrong way or flamed. I have been baiting for quite some time, although mostly casually - I began before I knew there was even a whole community of like minded people!

However, much as I love this site, one thing that I think would really improve it would be some sort of analysis into why 419 is happening and most notably in Nigeria. Now I know what you are all going to say:

"It is happening because these people are evil, fraudsters etc etc"

Possibly largely true.

However, have you ever considered why most of these scams originate in Nigeria? Are Nigerian people inherently more prone to doing this? Or is there something else at work?

It is interesting to note that there is a large, large culture of mistrust and hatred of the West brewing in Nigeria, mainly on account of what is happening with regards to Shell, and their receipt of business favours to the end of oil extraction on the cheap (the benefits of which are rarely seen by locals) in return for their strong support of the horrendous dictatorial government in Nigeria. It's a handy relationship - Shell get away with the loot, and split some of it with the dictators. Now, this is not the fault of every potential victim of a 419 scam. And it doesn't justify in any way 419 scams. But the cultural setting of Nigeria does provide us with some kind of clue as to why this is happening - it is very possible that people within Nigeria have just become accustomed to thinking that the Westerners they target really are just crooks who are living of their backs. At an individual level that is clearly nonsense, but as a political collective, who knows there may be a grain of truth in it. Again, it does not in any way justify 419 scams, but it does help to explain why these seemingly amoral people all seem to originate from Nigeria.

Sure, many will argue, "in that case, they are stupid for believing that the horrendous acts of Shell in Nigeria can be attributed to people like you or me". However, never forget the power of the media and grass roots hatred. After all, many Americans still think Ronald Reagan was a great man, and that juntas in Nicaragua and Chile were justifiably, in fact, funded, trained and encouraged to kill pro democracy supporters by his regime!
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Lord Vader
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You forget that they´ll happily scam other coloured Africans and Philippinos, Chinese and Indians as well, so it is not to take revenge, really. But I agree with a lot of what you say. Just not the "Taking justice in their own hands" crap. That´s just an excuse. Other countries and people have been exploited in much the same way all over the world. Why don´t we see the scams originating from there? Because the Nigerian mugus are smarter? Gimme a break.


Last edited by Lord Vader on Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lew_Skannen
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:16 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Just for the record I will list some of the victims I have PERSONALLY spoken to.
1. Thai women, catering assistant in Bangkok - lost about £20,000 of money borrowed from family and employer. When she told the scammer she had no money he told her to go borrow some.
2. Saudi Arab - $130K
3. Egyptian - sick wife - lost $10K
4. Egyptian - $7K
5. Black American woman - student - lost $2K
6. Black American woman - single mother - lost about $10K but was saved from losing another $20K by a timely phone call.
7. Korean guy - Lost $1000+
8. Mexican woman- reasonably wealthy family I think - lost $120K
9. Polynesian woman - $5K
10 - Colombian man - $500 only.

In addition I have known of Tanzanian, black South African and several west africans being targetted in chat room scams.

So this is all as a result of Shell??? The evidence doesn't seem to fit your theory very well. I would suggest you do a bit more research and get back to us.

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dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:21 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Other countries and people have been exploited in much the same way all over the world.

True to some extent, but the case of the oil issue in Nigeria and the sheer amount of hatred and resentment it generates is quite astounding to any visitor to that country. I've visited several countries in Africa, and Nigeria IS different.

You are right that people of all creeds may have been targeted. But I'm just trying to understand the general trend more than anything else, whilst in no way defending it of course.

Another example could be the prejudice that has built inthe US, post 911, towards arabs and muslims?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

To add my voice, 419 is NOT native of Nigeria OR West Africa. To blame a commercial entity is unfair (in this context) as this type of scam has been around for decades.

Probably the only reason it is *seen* to be Nigerian is because that's where most of these feckers are coming from AND the adoption of the tag "419" goes a long way to reinforcing the analogy.

I remain unsympathetic to ANYONE for WHATEVER reason when they SCAM. It cannot be justified, EVER!

Welcome to the eater BTW!
dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Cheers for the welcome! Smile

I also remain unsympathetic. I realise that a post like this carries a great risk of sounding like the opposite is true. But why is this where most of the feckers are coming from? I simply can't believe that it is a coincidence - there has to be a reason.

When I was in Nigeria, the level of resentment and bitterness towards what many percerived to be as "the west" for what many perceived as the theft of their oil and support of their government - it was astonishing. Really, really astonishing. I'm not saying they do this for revenge, but do you think that this resentment could have meant the scammers, perhaps, don't have the moral voice in their head telling them to stop? As we all know, prejudices are powerful, powerful things.

Also, I'm not suggesting a total explanation, but rather a strong correlating reason, between the socio-political and cultural context of Nigeria today, and the growth of these scams from, mainly, that country.
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Lew_Skannen
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

When I have slapped scammers at the end of a bait they always come back with the following lines of defense
1. it is not a scam it is real
2. you are just being racist
3. OK, it is a scam but we are just trying to get back the wealth stolen by the west etc yada yada yada....

I don't by ANY of this crap. Nigeria has all it needs to be a very wealthy country but it is a dump. The fact that everything seems to always be someone elses fault does not convince me for one minute.

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The Bl@ck Knight
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think the reason it seems to grow vastly around there is
1)organised crime heavily recruiting in that area
2)the laws on scamming there is so slack that they aren't worried if they do get caught
3)they know not much will be done to them if the person they are scamming is over seas.
4)corruption

Basically just being able to do it with little risk to oneself.
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dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
I don't by ANY of this crap. Nigeria has all it needs to be a very wealthy country but it is a dump. The fact that everything seems to always be someone elses fault does not convince me for one minute.

But my point is that you don't have to agree with the point that there has been an injustice in Nigeria (although my personal views of the country do probably differ from yours considerable - you call it a "dump", and I'm wondering which place you visited? Confused ) What I'm trying to get at is why the scammers are coming from Nigeria predominantly - and, believe me, there is a real loathing amongst many for "the west". You do not have to agree with that being justified - I do not believe it is justified (although I do think what Shell is doing in that country is hugely immoral - just my opinion). The point is that that loating does exist. And don't you think it could in some way be relevant to why these scams mostly seem to come from Nigeria?
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Seymour Butts
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I too wondered why this kind of scam seems to come mostly from West Africa, and particularly Nigeria. I don't have the answer, but I know that:

- GNI per capta is extremely low (USD 320) so the prospect of earning a couple of hundred dollars through WU can seem quite attractive

- Corruption is rife, making it easy for this type of scam to reach far higher levels of hierarchy than in many other countries where it would probably just be limited to a tiny proportion of small-time crooks

-Nigeria has a high literacy rate compared to many other African countries (about 90 per cent of adults). So there is a larger proportion of people who have the ability to correspond in English than in other countries

I don't know if these are the reasons, but maybe.

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dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The Bl@ck Knight wrote:
I think the reason it seems to grow vastly around there is
1)organised crime heavily recruiting in that area
2)the laws on scamming there is so slack that they aren't worried if they do get caught
3)they know not much will be done to them if the person they are scamming is over seas.
4)corruption

Basically just being able to do it with little risk to oneself.

I think this is the common opinion. However, I can assure you that all of your points apply across almost all of subtropical Africa. Of course, not all the scams are actually from Nigeria, you may say. But I'm talking about this huge general trend, which does repeatedly point to Nigeria.
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psychodad
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

In my opinion there can be a lot of reasons. They don't point specifically to Nigeria, but all the "poor countries" (no offence meant).

First of all the culture. We are poor, they are ritch. So why not taking from them. They exploited us for many years.

Second the amount of people availlable who need money. Take them from the street and put them behind a computer. Tell them how stupid the west is and how easy it is to scam them. And promise them to get ritch easy.

When other people hear how easy it is, they will try it. They go to an internet cafe and buy some time. Hopefully for them they will earn a few bucks.

There is also the law. Big country, no high tech available and probably little knowledge amongst the officials.

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dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:42 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
-Nigeria has a high literacy rate compared to many other African countries (about 90 per cent of adults). So there is a larger proportion of people who have the ability to correspond in English than in other countries

Now that's an interesting point that I hadn't considered, and I'd like to check out, more specifically, the level of English literacy and compare it to other countries in the region. That could well be relevant.

As I say, I am not suggesting, in my original post, a "complete" reason... but rather some correlating factors.
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dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

psychodad wrote:
In my opinion there can be a lot of reasons. They don't point specifically to Nigeria, but all the "poor countries" (no offence meant).

First of all the culture. We are poor, they are ritch. So why not taking from them. They exploited us for many years.

Second the amount of people availlable who need money. Take them from the street and put them behind a computer. Tell them how stupid the west is and how easy it is to scam them. And promise them to get ritch easy.

When other people hear how easy it is, they will try it. They go to an internet cafe and buy some time. Hopefully for them they will earn a few bucks.

There is also the law. Big country, no high tech available and probably little knowledge amongst the officials.

Points all taken and are well thought out. But again, the issue I have is that they apply - as you note yourself - not just to Nigeria. In fact, on the issue of law, Nigeria is actally (if you can believe this) far more strict than many of its neighbours (hard to believe I know).
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Old Coaster
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:46 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Handshaked Rugs Welcome to the forum. Frankly, you have become misinformed by the "mea culpa" brigade.

In the 18th century, European traders sat in hulks and trading posts at the mouths of the Oil Rivers, Badagry and other sites and were well used to the ridiculous amounts demanded by Nigerian traders for Palm Oil, Ivory and Slaves. Serious negotiation was involved and people like John Holt are on record complaining about the difficulty of dealing with the locals

I grew up in Nigeria long before oil was discovered in the Niger Delta. The culture of Southern Nigeria has always admired those who can make money without working and I have scam letters going back to the 1950's.

Us Old Coasters became increasingly irritated with the outrageous prices demanded by traders for Nigerian Craft work as the tourist business increased and naive tourists (usually Americans) paid the initial prices asked which could be up to 20 times the going price elsewhere.

The somewhat "jack the lad" culture of southern Nigeria combined with the stupidity of foreigners showed how easy it was to make money from the white mugus and intelligent scammers soon developed the 419 scams, initially via fax and then via the internet. The white mugus are becoming wiser and so the Scammers are now turning to other markets such as Asia, China and Latin America

It is facile to blame Shell or any commercial organisation for the development of advance fee frauds. It would be wiser to blame the missionaries who promised material benefit if you worshipped the Christian Gods. At the end of the day, Nigeria makes huge profits from oil and if they wanted, they could take over the entire oil business.

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meyer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yes, what Shell does to Nigeria *is* terrible. I would like to see some of their Nigerian managers in jail. Shell is at least morally responsible for the murder of Ken Saro-Wiwa, among many other things.

I think that one - not the only - but one of the main reasons behind the huge problem that Nigeria has with organized crime is the weakness of the state there. Nigeria already shows signs of a failed state syndrome, and I fear that things will get even worse there. And that means that crime syndicates will have even more power.

But if Nigerian people want to solve these problems, they will have to see that they are also responsible for what takes place over there. They have to stop the corruption and the warlords, and they won't be able to do this if they only blame "the west" for anything that goes wrong over there.

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Don
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I found this blog particularly helpful:

http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/014878.html

Quote:
The first and most obvious is that Nigeria in the 1980s had fax machines and, later, e-mail, both of which allowed the 419 cancer to metastasize enormously. More importantly, though, Nigeria in the 1970s and early 1980s was one of the few African countries with a substantial middle class; its educated population was large enough that home-grown as well as foreign technocrats benefitted from the oil boom. The oil glut of the mid-1980s, however, threw much of this new middle class out of work. This meant that Nigeria had a large population of displaced professionals who spoke English, knew the business world, could write a plausible business letter and needed money. Some of them, inevitably, used their skills to obtain illicit wealth - smuggling was (and is) a major area of activity, and fraud is another.

What was true then is even more so now; most African countries have gained little economic ground since the 1980s, and some are even poorer in real terms. The tools for 419 fraud are easier to come by - literacy is higher, and most major cities now have cybercafes - but economic opportunity has not kept pace, and the combination of these circumstances has turned 419 scams into something of a cottage industry. In other countries where opportunity has similarly lagged behind technology and education, 419 fraud has followed - sometimes from places as distant as Tonga, where police uncovered a scam carried out by someone purporting to be that country's crown prince. For the time being, you're likely to be seeing more of those letters in your inbox, in an ever greater number of variations.

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Lew_Skannen
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Ghana had and still has a very high level of education and yet they are not synonymous with scamming. In the end it is probably a cultural thing perculiar to regions of Nigeria.
The whole loathing of the West thing is irrelevant to 419, these people scam because it pays. They quite happily scam people who are non-western. I am sure if you ask any criminal why he commits a crime he can justify it - I am just not interested in listening to his bullshit reasons when I know full well the real reason he does it is because he believes it pays.

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heinousmoz
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Stating that Nigerians scam because of what the West did is an excuse (and a lazy one at that) and nothing more. Scammers try to use that to justify their actions but have been proved to be more than happy to scam an ex-pat with absolutely no second thoughts or guilt.

The only reason there could be to scam people is greed and the impression that it's an easy buck. Despite Nigeria being one of the richest countries in Africa the average income is still very low and as Seymour said it must seem damn tempting to try and make a years wages in a couple of weeks.

Scammers state that God’s with them and are happy to believe that what they do is not a sin despite “Thou shall not steal” being one of the Ten Commandments.

Why predominantly Nigeria? Most likely partly because of they have more exposure to the West (due to the oil industry) and see what they have and therefore what they (the scammers) want. Most importantly is the corruption in Nigeria which is a way of life for some people and make it easier than nearly any other country to get away with what they’re doing.

Once the corruption is dealt with you’d find there’s a hell of a difference in the number of scammers in Nigeria.

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dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Oldcoaster, thanks for your reply. You clearly have a different insight to share and it is appreciated and obviously relevant. Do you think that, however, this culture that you mention strictly applies to Nigeria? And not to its neighbours? (Not a rhetorical question, but a genuine one!).

The one thing I would like to comment on is where you say
Quote:
It is facile to blame Shell or any commercial organisation for the development of advance fee frauds. It would be wiser to blame the missionaries who promised material benefit if you worshipped the Christian Gods. At the end of the day, Nigeria makes huge profits from oil and if they wanted, they could take over the entire oil business.

I wouldn't ever blame Shell directly for advance fee frauds - and you may well have a very valid point about the missionaries. However, my point was that there is an unbelievable resentment that has grown from Shell, or rather what is perceived as "foreigners". Also, where you say Nigeria makes huge profits from oil etc, I think a differentiation should be made between the unelected and dictatorial Nigerian government, and normal people. However, my main point is that, even if you personally have no problem with Shell's actions in Nigeria, that resentment is still there in no small measure.

Meyer - I agree with pretty much everything you say!
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Lew_Skannen
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sounds like Shell is a convenient scapegoat. If Nigeria wants to get rid of Shell they can. The real problem for Nigeria is that they have crap governments and after 40 years they seem to be running out of people to blame for that.

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Lord Nelson
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

South Africa seems to appear quite often in my in box, as does Ghana.
Nigeria seems to be the most prevalent by far though.

I have been through Kenya quite a bit, and folks there seem to have
an "unusual" attitude to property. The streets are also awash with
confidence tricksters. who prey on tourists.

I wonder if nigeria just has a better developed data infrastructure?

LN

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dangermouse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:05 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Stating that Nigerians scam because of what the West did is an excuse

No, I think they scam for the money, of course. But I'm just saying could it not be that their hatred for the West plays some part in their willingness to do this (so greatly in numbers?).

Other points taken on board, and the blog was interesting (esp in terms of the wealth gap, role of oil and cybercafes - but is the same not true for South Africa, oil exceped?). But I still reckon that there is a correlation between a country where despising the West is uniquely commonplace and 419 scams predominantly originate. It's not an excuse - but a possible reason
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meyer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yes, Shell is definitely a scapegoat.

But that does not change the fact that Shell is responsible for terrible things. But not for everything going on there obviously. And getting rid of Shell won't solve the problem that Nigeria has - it will probably make things even worse.

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Old Coaster
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

handshakedrugs wrote:
Do you think that, however, this culture that you mention strictly applies to Nigeria? And not to its neighbours? (Not a rhetorical question, but a genuine one!).
I fear that it does, since the majority of scammers in the neighbouring countries are of Nigerian origin. However, Oil is to be found in other Countries in Africa and there is little internet scamming from these places.

Quote:
Also, where you say Nigeria makes huge profits from oil etc, I think a differentiation should be made between the unelected and dictatorial Nigerian government, and normal people.
These guys are merely the aristocrats of the scammer community.

However it needs to be said that there are many honest Nigerians who are apalled by what has happened to their country since it became independent. Until they stand up and do something about it, Nigeria will remain a pariah nation and no amount of aid or moralising from abroad will make matters better.

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