The Scammer „419 Baiter Database“

By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics and access other forums reserved for members. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today by clicking here.

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:15 pm

As the worldwide scamming industry has reached a turnover amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars annually, it might be interesting to investigate whether a “mirror site” of 419 Eater might exist somewhere, allowing scammers worldwide to access a database containing the names of those who might be baiting them.

Considering the amounts which are involved globally, and in light of the increasing sophistication of the scams being perpetrated, it should, perhaps, not be discounted that such an “internal” database has been established by the scammers themselves, in order to track their baiters.

The Lads might be stupid but their “Ogas” are not. We are looking at a global scamming industry, as well organized as the Mafia or, perhaps, even better. Just as we have been able to identify and interrupt obvious scams and scammers, they may have established a way of identifying the baiters.

If any information concerning this type of scammer “networking” exists, it might be important to publish any methods conductive towards circumventing their methods of gathering intelligence about us.

Baiting safely is one issue. Baiting undetected is another one.

Does anyone have any information regarding this?

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:02 pm

I used to toy with the idea of there being a lad forum back when I started baiting, humorously thinking all the sorts of threads and topics they would have in there. But honestly? Sounds very unlikely.

First of all, the lads are not co-operating nearly on the same level as we are. We can all bait the same scammer, it's even effective. Whereas a victim has only so much money, and there are only so many victims, so the lads are essentially competing with each other. Try this sometime: forward your lad an email from another lad, asking for his opinion. 99 % of the times he will tell you "It's a scam, don't believe it!"

Second, we make an effort to make the lads think we don't exist as an organized group. Sure, they may call you a joker, but have you ever been called a baiter? They know there are people out there pulling their legs. They also know there are real victims out there who turn out to be not worth their precious time. But they don't generally speaking know that there is a whole organized community trying to make their life miserable. And that's better for us.

Third, lads are lads. Some are more organized than the others, but to start talking about mafia or whatnot is frankly out of our league. I have no doubt that the organized crime could have their fingers in some sort of advance fee fraud as well, but that does not equal to lads being any more organized than what we usually see: small gangs here and there and lots of lone, relatively computer-literate young men trying to take a shortcut to becoming rich.

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:32 pm

^^^

Well said...... clapping

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:33 pm

Duckster wrote:

lots of lone, relatively computer-literate young men trying to take a shortcut to becoming rich

And we're here to make sure they don't. This is a labor of love, and one well taken up by the good folks here. Thumbs up

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21158

I think my Vlad blog may be about as close to some attempt to organize that they have bothered with. I feel special that they took the time to do it but it has blown some baits for me.

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:50 am

How would they get the data? If your lad knows he's been baited, then IMO you're not doing it right. So if they bothered to create a database it would contain only info on ineffective or inexperienced baiters, and therefore wouldn't be very useful to them. Go for it, lads!

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:32 am

Nailgunner has been called a baiter. I don't know of anyone else who has. I've been called a joker.

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:29 am

I forgot point four, which should have really been point one: the upkeep of any sort of international database or forum costs money and time. I think only Rover could tell just about how much the upkeep of Eater costs in those resources. Who would pay for it? Who would maintain it? I don't see our lads ever developing that sort of co-operation or long term planning when the whole point of their frauds is to get rich quickly and easily.

I remember years ago when some Vlads(?) became really pissed off at us and arranged a DDoS attack which continued for a while. That seemed fairly organized but then again just how much organization do you need to find and hire someone to do it if you are a criminal in the first place?

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:11 am

^^Vonpaso is right, a freshly insulted lad called me out for a baiter some years back. But it's only happened once.
I have made this point before; baiters are driven by altruism whereas lads are driven by self interest. We will cooperate without a thought for personal gain, they will team up if it makes them a fast buck but at a basic level they are competing with each other. They divide their efforts, we multiply ours.
Realistically while this situation persists we won't be seeing baiter databases run by lads. There is just so much more cash to be made by milking real victims and dropping jokers when they are discovered.

Master of Master Baiters Joined: 21 Nov 2012 Posts: 619

there's definitely an understanding among lads that asking for 'security photos' is an indicator of a joker, but as others have noted, they don't really seem to understand that we're out just to waste their time (and other resources)

Baiting Guru Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 5905

Nailgunner wrote:

they will team up if it makes them a fast buck but at a basic level they are competing with each other.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Lads very seldom work alone they belong to loose networks who will work together for a cut but they are not mafia style organised. An Oga is someone brought in to help close a big deal at an advanced stage of a scam when a lad needs someone with very good standards of English (etc) he is more of a freelance boss for hire as opposed to an authoritarian, all-powerful Don like figure.

Vlads are a little different and I don't know enough about them to comment on how they operate. They do seem more mafia like and more likely to do something more along the lines of what the original poster is talking about. However, as already mentioned it would distract them from their business of making money so how much time would they dedicate to such an endeavour?

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:50 am

^ worth mentioning other guymen-for-hire that include lads who are physically based in the same country as their victims. They are hired for face-to-face meetings which are a very strong convincer to an already hooked victim. They are extremely valuable assets for advanced jobs, but at the same time very exposed to the attentions of law enforcement and other agencies. Some may be resident in that nation, some may be on student or tourist visas which may or may not have expired, so there is the possibility that any police involvement may get them deported if they get checked up on... a pleasant thought, if difficult to put into practice.

Elite Baiter Joined: 10 Mar 2013 Posts: 1486

I have a feeling that advance fee -scam isn't profitable enough that lads would get all that organised. Let alone Mafia. Too labour intensive if you must realy pay to people.

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:46 pm

Nailgunner wrote:

They divide their efforts, we multiply ours.

Exactly. Pure poetry, sir. Thumbs up

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:20 pm

Thank you for the many in-depth responses to my query. I’ll try to keep this first response as short as possible.

In my premise, I suggested “a “mirror site” of 419 Eater might exist somewhere, allowing scammers worldwide to access a database containing the names of those who might be baiting them.” From your replies, both instructive and informative, I realize that I should have chosen a better formulation, insofar as a dedicated database containing “possible baiters” might be plausible but only if the scammers were truly well organized.

However, I’m sure that we all agree that scamming world-wide has now reached a level where one can speak of “industrialized scamming”. It is a worldwide phenomenon and for countries like Nigeria, for instance, it has become an important source of income for a specific segment of the population. From what I have read, “100’s of millions of dollars” only begins to describe the annual turnover of this industry and, like all industries, it will attempt to organize, structure itself and reduce wasted resources even though the competition is tough.

What I was considering when I wrote my posting, was more of a scammer “metadata” database that could be easily financed by taking in a minuscule share of the profits from anyone accessing it, in order to increase their own “productivity”.

In other words, if “George C. Ladclobber” is drawn into a scam and is responsively corresponding, he goes into the database containing his name, type of scam, date started etc. If, however, he has also responded to other scams as “George C. Ladclobber” and is responsively corresponding and multitasking as he baits, he would also be entered into that database. The chances that a real Mugu will be scammed at one time are great. The chances that a real Mugu is being scammed by seven different scammers at the same time are minimal.

Accordingly, and depending on the quality of the data entered, it could therefore be quickly determined that Mr. Ladclobber is a baiter. Not only the name, but also parameters such as email address, location, date of birth or profession of the “victims” (to name just a few) could be used to discover clear redundancies. This would make our job all the more difficult but certainly not impossible.

My thinking is that any “industry” operating successfully is very much interested in remaining in business and maximizing its own profits. In light of what I assume happens when a scammer feels that his victim is close to sending him those € 4.500.- and his entire attention is reduced to a “tunnel vision” level of awareness, intent only on getting his hands on the money of “his primary Mugu” (to the detriment of all else), that “other business” suffers, especially if he’s only being baited.

My thoughts are that the more successful sites like 419 Eater become, the stronger the defenses will be that are erected by “the industry” in order to maintain their profit margin.

I realize that I have not addressed one, single argument presented here why such a database could not have been established. To do so now would make this reply so long that it would be unacceptable So, I’ll just post this for the time being and trust in your understanding.

Again, many thanks for all your input. Whatever the outcome, it’s a great exchange of ideas and information.

And I thank you, also, for allowing someone who is so new here to interact with you as I have. It is deeply appreciated.

Master of Master Baiters Joined: 21 Nov 2012 Posts: 619

Quote:

My thinking is that any “industry” operating successfully is very much interested in remaining in business and maximizing its own profits. In light of what I assume happens when a scammer feels that his victim is close to sending him those € 4.500.- and his entire attention is reduced to a “tunnel vision” level of awareness, intent only on getting his hands on the money of “his primary Mugu” (to the detriment of all else), that “other business” suffers, especially if he’s only being baited.

if the lad really believes he's about to receive some money, why would he share that name with other possibly untrustworthy guymen? :]

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:03 pm

Quote:

“the industry”

The hole in the theory boils down to this point -- there is no 'industry.' There are thousands of gangs, mostly small, and many more thousands of guymen operating solo, only collaborating with others when absolutely necessary (as previously mentioned -- for things like face-to-face or higher language skills).

As an analogy, consider drug dealers in a major city. This is big business. Millions upon millions of dollars are (illegally) made. But instead of cooperating, each gang, or semi-independent dealer, is interested in controlling his turf. They don't cooperate for the common good of their "industry", quite the contrary. They distrust each other to the point of using violence to defend their slice of the pie.

Very few scammers, even those who have been heavily baited, can even comprehend what we do, or why. They are incapable of understanding the concept of going to such effort when there is no money involved. It's alien to their entire culture.

There is rampant distrust among lads. Which is why "dolla chops" are so effective in baiting. Lads live in fear of another scammer cutting into their game. Cooperation is rare, and a last resort. And dolla chops happen often enough in real life -- it's not a baiter invention. Lads steal from each other all the time, or more accurately, whenever they can.

It's the rare lad who even Googles, let alone worries about metadata. Whether they're paying expensive fees at an Internet café, or paying expensive fees to an ISP for a connection on a home computer or laptop, they focus their time on hunting for victims, not compiling databases of baiters.

Elite Baiter Joined: 10 Mar 2013 Posts: 1486

^^^ Just a thought: If lads knew about baiters and understood it would that be a good or bad? Would it work as a deterrent or change their behaviour in a way that would be a positive thing?

I know that this would take a lot of fun out of baiting but that is not the real reason why we do this.

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:49 am

^ It wouldn't deter them, but it would make them more suspicious of potential victims. This could be either a good or bad thing, depending on the individual lad.

Some lads would drop real victims thinking they are baiters, and that is a positive thing. Others would be able to rumble baiters quickly and be unbaitable, and that is a negative thing.

On the whole, I think it is better that the lads don't understand the concept of baiting. We know our enemy, they don't. That allows us to be more effective.

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:30 am

Leonard, is that you? Wink

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:32 am

Juan Freizwidatt wrote:

Lads live in fear of another scammer cutting into their game. Cooperation is rare, and a last resort. And dolla chops happen often enough in real life -- it's not a baiter invention. Lads steal from each other all the time, or more accurately, whenever they can.

For some reason this made me think of the possibility of reversing the chop modality and making a lad think he is ruining my fake lad's payday. I don't know why, but I suddenly find the idea hilarious. I'm off to the drawing board!

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:45 pm

From what I have read so far, it appears that the general consensus is that the scamming industry is not networking in any significant way, that would allow them to create a “Mugu database”, allowing the scammers to analyze how effectively they are applying their resources.

In many ways this is good news and certainly makes baiting the lads a lot more “stress free”, at least regarding their ability to track baiting activities.

Ducklings three points are certainly convincing and if he is right, so much the better for us. He indicated that the lads are “… not co-operating nearly on the same level as we are” which, I my view, could make it interesting to establish on exactly what level the lads are cooperating.

Somehow, though, I find it hard to believe that scammers are really so unaware that there are organized communities “out there” trying to make their lives miserable. The collective impact of the world-wide baiting community is certainly being felt when bank accounts are getting closed down, arrests are made and lads experience their subjective failures at the hands of experienced baiters. Perhaps I overestimate that impact. His assessment, according to point three appears to be a very realistic and one can take heart from.

I find TheFae’s comment regarding the labor of love is beautifully stated.
As I’m running my first baits, I’ve not yet found the time to investigate next victim’s Vlad blog. But it sure sounds interesting!

Bohigal asked, “How would they get the data?” It’s a good question. My thinking was that a metadata database would be their first logical step. In other words, no content, just the basics: name of victim, type of scam, location of victim (country city), date started, name of scammer, perhaps some kind of success “rating” etc. The point is, that this very general metadata wouldn’t be entered when a particular scammer feels like he/she is being baited, but when a scam has reached a certain “point of viability” it would be the analysis of the database itself and the data it contains, which might bring baiters to light and do reduce “industry losses”.

Vonpasa xlura’s observation would seem to point towards such a database not existing. Good news, indeed.

Duckling’s point four is essentially correct. An international database of this kind does cost money. However, that kind of money is peanuts compared to what the scammers are raking in annually. A simple Sybase (for instance) relational database and a couple of well-paid analysts, well versed in the art of recognizing redundancies, “blips” and other “subtle parallels”, could easily be paid for out of the pockets of the “10%”, who are actually raking in the cash and intent on reducing their overlay.

Nailgunner stated: “… baiters are driven by altruism whereas lads are driven by self interest. We will cooperate without a thought for personal gain, they will team up if it makes them a fast buck but at a basic level they are competing with each other. They divide their efforts, we multiply ours.“

The eloquence of this comment cannot be refuted. My thinking was that at some junction, the lads will no longer want to drop baiters once they are discovered, but rather actively seek them out before they have done their work and such a database could be one tool in that direction.

Thanks, once more, for your thoughts.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21158

TheFae wrote:

Leonard, is that you? Wink

My poor keyboard!

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:07 pm

BingoHirsch wrote:

Duckling’s point four is essentially correct. An international database of this kind does cost money. However, that kind of money is peanuts compared to what the scammers are raking in annually

Since quoting myself would be silly, let me quote Juan instead:

Quote:

The hole in the theory boils down to this point -- there is no 'industry.' There are thousands of gangs, mostly small, and many more thousands of guymen operating solo, only collaborating with others when absolutely necessary

This is essentially the same thing again. There is no "scammers". There are individual lads and different gangs. There is also no annual income. A lad might be a lad for a year without making a penny. Then he might suddenly hit big and get a few thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of dollars from a single victim. And then he might go another year without ever making a penny. These are two reasons for why staring at the statistics simply doesn't work.

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:21 pm

Quote:

"The hole in the theory boils down to this point -- there is no 'industry.' There are thousands of gangs, mostly small, and many more thousands of guymen operating solo, only collaborating with others when absolutely necessary."

* * *

The point is well made and I’m perfectly happy to cede it. Please consider my comments as an attempt to realistically asses the possible tactics the lads could use while I beat them into submission with my keyboard. Very Happy

The Scammer „419 Baiter Database“	View next topic View previous topic