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 InTheNews- When men are cowards - UPDATE

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Gold Hat
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

American college football is enormous in scope and fun to watch. I can think of a hundred reasons to avoid house/yard work on a Saturday afternoon to park my butt with a cool one and get lost in the spectacle.

But there are dark clouds now over one of the most revered coaches in the game's history.

The question is: DID JOE DO ENOUGH?

Your thoughts

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Last edited by Gold Hat on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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firehouse5
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Ack! since I don't live in the US any more your post was a complete riddle, but what an awful story.......

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:34 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It will be interesting to see him go from Penn State to State Pen if this is true!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

next victim wrote:
It will be interesting to see him go from Penn State to State Pen if this is true!


Interesting twist Laughing

But it's not what Joe did - but what he didn't do. And that this would tarnish such a storied career Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Apparently the powers that be didn't think the cover-up through very well. Confused

Why Mike McQueary didn't immediately pick up a football helmet by the face-guard and beat the living shit out of Sandusky with it, is beyond me. I'll leave it at that... Mad

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^Agreed!


I checked Pennsylvania's law regarding reporting child abuse of any kind. In PA, if employed in an institution, it is appropriate to report it to the superior. and it is on them to follow through.

In other states, it is on the person with the knowledge of the actifity to make the report with in the legal time frames.

Too often, the PTB (Powers That Be) think they can handle / manage that kind of situation on their own. That is always a bad idea especially involving children.

A shame. Sad

Source: http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter42/s42.42.html

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

As I tap this out the Penn St. Board of Governors just announced that Joe P will not coach another game. The university president was also let go. It's a sad day but appropriate.

I would like to hear Joe explain why he did not call the authorities as soon as McCleary came to him with the news. My guess is he was more concerned about protecting the Penn State brand.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:19 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^I am not defending, just looking at the facts.

Joe did what the law required if he reported it to his superior (read the law in the link).

Could he have done more? Probably
Should he have done more? Most likely.


I don't want to argue, just want the "rules" to be known in that jurisdiction. IMO, the law should be changed to read that the person with the knowledge must report it to the police or Child Protective Services, instead of having it go to someone else to follow up.

To me the law is flawed.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

As with all stories like this all the real truth will eventually come out.

In respect to Coach Paterno, I am guessing he honestly felt he had done the correct thing. Put it in context of who the man is (or was). He lived and breathed football every day - all day for nearly 50 years. Once he heard about the incident involving one of his coaches, long retired, he reported it immediately and went back to his own world. Remember that he is legendary not only for his wins on the field but also the level of honour and decency he demanded from his players.

He is an old warrior, innocent of any wrong doing and should be allowed to slip into history quietly.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:27 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Human wrote:
Remember that he is legendary not only for his wins on the field but also the level of honour and decency he demanded from his players.


Quote:
Let's not forget that from 2002-2008, Penn State football players led the nation in player arrests with 46 (accounting for 163 criminal charges).


Legendary: fictitious but well known. Laughing

Joe is not guilty of crime (though I haven't looked up the definition of "accessory"). Just because someone does the legal thing, does not mean they have done the right thing. Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

jose_cuervo wrote:
Just because someone does the legal thing, does not mean they have done the right thing. Wink


Hmmmm . . . does that apply to mods as well Wink

Quote:
Penn State football players led the nation in player arrests


Point taken. But Joe also led a football dynasty that was one of the cleanest in respect NCAA rule violations.He may have had difficulty controlling some players but he is held in the highest regard as a man by every past and present player that has commented on this tragedy. I honestly don't think we know the full story yet.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:34 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This story has been quite upsetting. I had hoped that we were seeing the end of the dirt coming out. But during lunch I saw an article on Yahoo which discussed a new rumor that could open a new can of worms at PSU. I really hope it isn't true.

The thing that really sickens me is the extent to which PSU went to hide what had been occurring. Terrible. Just terrible.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Human wrote:
Hmmmm . . . does that apply to mods as well Wink


HAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!! Mods don't make mistakes, you know that! Razz

Seriously though...

I tend to agree with a lot (if not most) of the article you linked. It's not like Paterno was never told the specific nature of an incident involving Sandusky stealing supplies from the Penn State Student Book Store, and fulfilled his obligation by passing the info up the chain.

Is it wrong to steal school supplies? Yes. Is it illegal to steal shool supplies? Yes. Should anyone call the police if they witnesed the stealing of Penn State school supplies?

There's plenty of room for the argument of following University policies and procedures vs immediately calling the police in the above scenario. Unfortunately, knowledge of a former coach stealing school supplies is not the cause of Paterno's current situation, and is light-years away from even being a remote comparison to the rape of a child.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Meanwhile, his supporters have taken to rioting to show their displeasure over his firing. Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

So Penn State fans are saying they put football above the well-being of children? Shame.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This whole story is horribly upsetting and anyone that knew anything should be ashamed and disgraced. And anyone sympathetic to any of these men that are now caught up in a case of their own making, needs to rethink their position. Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:36 am Reply with quoteBack to top

DoraTheExplorer wrote:
. . . And anyone sympathetic to any of these men that are now caught up in a case of their own making, needs to rethink their position.


That's a very broad stroke.

Found this on Wikipedia - tends to buttress your argument:

Quote:
On November 7, Pennsylvania state police Commissioner Frank Noonan said that Paterno fulfilled his legal obligation to report suspected abuse, although "somebody has to question about what I would consider the moral requirements for a human being that knows of sexual things that are taking place with a child," and that, "I think you have the moral responsibility, anyone. Not whether you're a football coach or a university president or the guy sweeping the building. I think you have a moral responsibility to call us."[33] Criticism of Paterno, including calls for his dismissal, arose for allegedly "protecting Penn State’s brand instead of a child",[34] and allowing Sandusky, who retired in 1999, to retain emeritus status and access to the university's football program and facilities despite knowledge of the allegations.


But we don't know all the particulars regarding Coach Paterno. This is a man who has spent 60 years taking care of young men and boys. He has 5 of his own children and 17 grandchildren and tens of thousands of students who look up to him. Surely that counts more than the speculations in the news media.

Again I say - he is an old man who was trying to live out his life on the grid iron. From any angle, he is still a decent person.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

On the other hand:

Quote:
Penn State's Joe Paterno gets what he deserves

Scott Ostler, San Francisco Chronicle


Many folks in the media have been asking: What will this terrible scandal do to Joe Paterno's legacy?

Folks, this is Joe Paterno's legacy.

E-mails jump into my inbox defending Paterno, many of them from Pennsylvania, pointing out his won-lost record, his years of service and his reputation.

Wonderful. Still, from now on when I think of Paterno, I won't think of his 400-and-whatever wins or his spotless (until now) program.

I won't remember what Paterno did, but what he didn't do. What he didn't do is what got him fired Wednesday by the Penn State board of trustees.

Firing Joe Paterno doesn't fix everything, but it's a great start.

It represents the first ray of apparent sanity and clear thinking related to the Penn State scandal. Paterno's firing spares the nation the appalling spectacle of JoePa coaching his team Saturday on national TV, being glorified and deified by adoring fans.

I don't know if Paterno's firing provides relief to any of the eight boys and young men who allegedly were sexually assaulted by Paterno's longtime assistant coach. But if the firing provides even a tiny bit of relief, it was more noble and enlightened than was the hiring of Paterno as head coach almost a half century ago.

Today, for the first time since the scandal broke, the outside world doesn't have to ask, "Is everyone associated with Penn State football completely delusional?"

We watched for days as people in Happy Valley seemed oblivious to the fact that Paterno and several others in the university community knew Jerry Sandusky was possibly a sexual predator of young boys, and nobody did anything to stop the crazy man.

Others have lost their jobs, including the school president. More will be fired or removed, including, one hopes, the assistant coach, Mike McQueary, who witnessed one attack and ran away. So why is Paterno taking the biggest hit (other than Sandusky) from the public?

Because Paterno is the man with the statue. He is the most admired and beloved - and maybe feared - person in the Penn State world. He is the man people entrust to set the standard for leadership and life conduct, and hold others to it. It's a role Paterno earned and embraced.

With responsibility comes responsibility.

Look, witnesses have testified that Sandusky did bad things with young boys in the Penn State football shower room. At least two janitors knew. At least one assistant coach knew. The athletic director and the school vice president knew. The school president knew. Paterno knew.

What is the over-under number on how many people have to know about a depraved predator working under their noses before one of them takes a step to stop the predator and protect the victims?

Jay Bilas, the ESPN college basketball commentator, called it "a conspiracy of cowards."

Many others contributed to Paterno's 400-plus wins at Penn State, yet he got the statue. Many others contributed to a decade of freedom for a sex predator, yet Paterno will take much of the blame. That's how it goes.

Even if McQueary, then a graduate assistant, gave Paterno only a vague description of the shower incident (and why in the world would Paterno not demand details?), the report should have raised in Paterno a reasonable suspicion that Sandusky was a dangerous criminal.

Yet Paterno didn't do any follow-up, leaving us skeptics to speculate that he clamped a lid on any suspicion because a sex scandal involving the longtime defensive coordinator would have been a terrible stain on Penn State football and the Paterno Era.

Paterno should have realized that the level of damage to the program at that point would have been a pimple compared to the cancer that has enveloped the program.

"With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more," Paterno said in a statement.

That's pathetic.
You need hindsight to tell you that you must do whatever you can to stop a dangerous criminal?

To Paterno's supporters, those of us who called for and then praised his firing are a braying mob of self-righteous haters using vague information to ruin a good man. I can live with that.

Several e-mailers demand, "Have you ever heard of due process?"

The due process I've heard of involves a justice system and a legal trial. Paterno faces no legal action or charge. Legally, his rear end is covered.

But there was no trial when Paterno was sainted, no jury declared him one of the noblest and finest college coaches of all time. The public decided.

It's the same deal on the flip side. We'll take the facts and form them into our personal legacy of Joe Paterno.




The bolding is mine; I think that really sums it up and shows this is not just "speculation in the media". It's fact, not innuendo. He knew horrible and illegal things were going on right under his nose and did nothing meaningful about it. I see nothing decent about that. The fact that he has children and grandchildren, and many admirers doesn't make him honorable. He covered it up to protect his own reputation. He put his glory above the safety of children that he knew were being abused. That's indecent regardless of how many years he spent in his career.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
He has 5 of his own children and 17 grandchildren and tens of thousands of students who look up to him.


In my opinion, that makes what he did (or rather, didn't do) worse. How is he going to explain to his own grandchildren that he failed to protect the children that were being victimized by a member of his own staff? How does he explain this to the thousands of students that look up to him? How can he justify having a statue of his own likeness when he can't make the most obvious of morally right choices? What good is an amazing win-loss record if this is how he'll be remembered? Frankly, he brought this on himself. I hope his grandchildren have a LOT of questions for him.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

from article Juan posted wrote:
Look, witnesses have testified that Sandusky did bad things with young boys in the Penn State football shower room. At least two janitors knew. At least one assistant coach knew. The athletic director and the school vice president knew. The school president knew. Paterno knew.

This just makes me want to vomit. I don't believe anyone who is defending Joe or any of the other men would be doing so if one of those boys were their son/grandson/family member.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:51 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Many folks in the media have been asking: What will this terrible scandal do to Joe Paterno's legacy?

Folks, this is Joe Paterno's legacy.


For a man who claimed to be interested in the welfare of young people, I cannot feel sad for him. For this to have gone on for, let's see, over TEN YEARS, it's not just disgusting, it's reprehensible. And all of the other people who knew should be shown the street as well.

Ugh. puke

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Exactly. If he has 5 kids and 17 grandkids, he should have a deeper sense of paternal protection for innocent children than the average person, but he clearly doesn't. To defend himself by saying he simply reported it to the next level above is no excuse. To let it slide for years is an obvious indication that he valued his career, his 'brand', his reputation, much more highly than the kids -- most likely the same ages as his grandkids -- to be raped. And to do nothing about it. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. And in his case, it would seem evident that he wasn't ignorant, merely willing to ignore the obvious and pretend it was all okay. Only now, after being called out out his deliberate avoidance of the issue, does he admit that maybe "in hindsight" it was something that should have been acted upon. He couldn't recognize at the time that raping 10 year-olds was not only reprehensible, but criminal? Only in hindsight does he realize he might have acted more proactively?

I have absolutely no respect for the man. None. Whatever achievements he made in his lifetime are erased by the fact that he admits that he knew, but decided that passing it up the chain -- even though no action was taken -- was all he had to do. From then on he could ignore the continued reports. He did his job (in his mind). Basic humanity and rule of law be damned.

Those are some seriously messed-up priorities.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This URL is the main page of the US for the Huffington Post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/?country=US

Scroll down to near the bottom where you will find the most recent info including two related articles.

If you look to the immediate right of this article you will find an interesting article comparing Penn State to another institution.
J_C note I did not make a direct reference. Wink


*sigh* Back on the naughty step with you. I could care less about the actual topic of this thread, but working religion into it when you've only just come back from suspension for the same subject and been warned countless times means that I'm putting you back out in the cold. Both you and I know your intentions with that link and claiming that it's not a direct reference does nothing to justify it. - Slightly
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

It is always dangerous when someone wants to put their "legacy" ahead of doing what is right, moral, decent and honorable.

I agree with what the police officer said in the Wiki article. I see the PA law as the weakest I have ever read and it just begs for people to shirk their reasonable, responsible and humane duty.

I don't understand how the ASSistant coach could have walked away from what he is reported to have witnessed. I don't understand how Sandusky came out of the locker room alive.

I HAVE made reports and have had subordinates have to make this kind of report too. I NEVER just ASS-u-me that the other person did their duty. I FOLLOW UP on it.

The rioting is so misplaced and stupid. The rioters should be rioting against the abuse of children, not for football.

The law is terribly flawed and I wonder how many other child assaults have gone this way in PA too.

There has been talk of cancelling the balance of the PSU football season. I think that should be done. Someone needs to stand up and say that there are consequences to abhorrent behavior. As it sits right now, the message is: If you know the right people, you can get away with anything for a long time.

That is the wrong message for humankind and for the future leaders of the world. I don't mean just PSU athletes or students, this message needs to ring clear to everyone!.

We fight scammers for the damage they do. Why are those who cover up vile behaviors any less bad than scammers?

The slime has to stop regardless of the status of the perpetrators or their support systems. Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
"With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more," Paterno said in a statement.


Hindsight being what? Knowing he was going to get caught? I bet he wishes he did more. Not for the children's sake but for his own sake.

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