How far is too far legally?

By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics and access other forums reserved for members. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today by clicking here.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 01 Aug 2010 Posts: 17

I've recently been developing a scambaiting specific webmail provider, which would have features such as identity and bait management features as well as tools to generate fake websites.
One of my ideas is to create a fake email site which you convince your lad to join (for security reasons I guess) only catch is that it would either require 50 surveys to be completed or $10. Hidden in the eula (check if you have read and agree) would be various stuff explaining the site doesn't actually provide email and that by joining they agree to have any email they attempt to send be intercepted by the scambaiter.

I know it would be nice if surveys were the only option but web hosting costs money, and I'd prefer a business model were baiters don't pay and scammers do.

Then there is also the question, if I used a referral system that saw baiters get a cut of every scammer they signed up, would this count as obtaining funds through deception?

In my opinion it would be fine as long as the scambaiter specifically said to sign up so they could comminicate with him/her and not because its a really good email provider.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:23 am

Quote:

Then there is also the question, if I used a referral system that saw baiters get a cut of every scammer they signed up, would this count as obtaining funds through deception?

That's called cash baiting. It's illegal so it's not condoned here.

Quote:

joining they agree to have any email they attempt to send be intercepted by the scambaiter.

That is also not condoned here the same way social engineering access to lad accounts are not.

Quote:

In my opinion it would be fine

It's not fine, sorry.

Something tells me this thread is going to end up locked but I leave it for now but I am removing the poll as it's pointless.

419Eater is my life Joined: 08 Apr 2009 Posts: 375

As stated, this falls under cash-baiting. Another big thing is that the lads won't be using their own money to pay for the accounts. I work for a large email provider. These lads sign up for accounts everyday and we always find that they used a stolen credit card to sign up. With that, having them pay to sign up would not hurt them financially.

Baiting Guru Joined: 10 Oct 2003 Posts: 4747

Cash baiting is a bad idea mainly because in the eyes of law enforcement you are committing a fraud, no matter how noble you cause is. I am not saying it would happen but, I have seen LE do screwier things.

Perfect your bating skills, so you can start to take a mental toll on them, really screwing with a mugus mind is priceless.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 01 Aug 2010 Posts: 17

Okay so since its considered illegal and not condoned by 419eater I won't peruse that path Smile

What about having websites which request credit card details for the purpose of sending them to authorities only?

edit ive scambaited before but have never, paid thought to ethical/legal issues in the past

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:45 am

Welcome to Eater Andy. We do encourage thinking out loud. Many thoughts have been hashed through several times, but how would you know unless you asked or searched.

I would cringe at creating anything that looked like phishing because you have no idea who might stumble into the website.

We work real hard to not involve Innocent Third Parties (ITP) and do activities that would cross legal lines. I personally would not want the police to come to my door looking into a potential phishing site.

That is me and I am a bit ParaNoid.

419Eater is my life Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 293

I think getting lads to pay for bogus (or misleading) email is clearly cash baiting and shouldn't be done.

I have a somewhat less strict view of the ITP rule. Technically, the teller at WU or MG who has to stand there and endure the lad's "What do you mean, the MTCN isn't in your system?!?!" crap is an ITP, but we all think that's fine because it can't be avoided. Nevertheless, this bogus email idea is not a good one in my opinion.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 01 Aug 2010 Posts: 17

ParaNoid wrote:

I would cringe at creating anything that looked like phishing because you have no idea who might stumble into the website.

What if the fake site contained one time use codes to make sure it can only be accessed by the scammer?

Also, what is the exact point that cash baiting begins? For example people seem to have no qualms making lads pay for shipping brass statues, is this considered cash baiting?

Also it was mentioned that social engineering to obtain scammer passwords is unethical, but with login information you could warn potentially dozens of potential victims before their lives are (possibly even further) destroyed, does this not justify the obtaining of their passwords?

Edit: Perhaps this topic can be moved to the Scambaiting help forum?

Master of Master Baiters Joined: 26 Sep 2008 Posts: 689

Sadly two wrongs don't make a right. Phishing is illegal, obtaining money under false pretences is illegal.

Persuading a lad to make a brass model or getting himself tattoed is about directing his greed toward something harmless, he decides to spend his money on the project, that's different to you persuading him to part with his (someone elses!) money.

Getting him on safari is still redirecting his greed and still his decision, he doesn't have to do it.

Use your creative talents to prevent lads from scamming but make sure it's legal .... ethics is another question entirely.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:44 pm

If you , as a baiter, receive money from a scammer it's cash baiting, ie wire fraud, and we don't do it, end of discussion (or the thread will get locked)

To answer the other question about credit cards, these are best had from overpayment or freight forwarding lads who will buy stuff off you, pay with a stolen CC and ask for the overpayment to be sent via Western Union back to their "shipper". If you can snag any of these, great, you get a black pig in your signature like this wee fella

. To report the card, PM a moderator with all the info and they will do the business. it's good work.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21158

Welcome Andyops. I have an idea if you are set on creating a site. There are quite a few lads in Surplus looking to buy "stuff". I'm guessing quite a few of these would be working with stolen CC info or bogus checks. Make everything on your site ridiculously expensive.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:14 pm

^ i would advise against having an automated checkout though, it would look too much like a phishing site if it collected CC info automatically. Handle it all with emails.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21158

Excellent point Gunner!

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:22 pm

@next victim - if you did that, and tried to turn over the cc details to LEO's... what would you tell them? That this person in Nigeria tried to use a credit card to buy a nonexistent overpriced item from your fake website?

I wouldn't go there if I were you...

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 01 Aug 2010 Posts: 17

Thank you next_victim, I shall certainly investigate. Twisted Evil

However I am reluctant as it may cause Innocent Third Parties to give up their CC info... However there are ways to make sure only mugus give up their stolen CC details Very Happy

(Like making a private auction site)

And I hate to sound like a broken record but I have a few more questions on what is and isn't considered to be cashbaiting:
1. Would directing your lad to a website (such as one of those phoney churches) which has banner advertising which you receive payment for be considered cashbaiting? Or would the advertiser be considered as an Innocent Third Party?
2. Would getting your lad to fill out surveys by marketing companies that you receive payment from in return be considered as cash baiting? You could throw in a couple of your own surveys to make sure they answer questions truthfully, mitigating the ITP that is the marketing companies.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21158

If I were creating it, there would be none of that involved. It doesn't look proper. Tailor your products to things that lads would be after, i.e. electronics, flashy jewelery, watches, things like that, and make sure the prices far exceed their value. That should keep ITPs away although you may get a few. Just tell them that you are out of stick or something. If you only hit those asking to buy "stuff", chances are good that ITPs wouldn't know about you.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21158

bearkat419 wrote:

@next victim - if you did that, and tried to turn over the cc details to LEO's... what would you tell them? That this person in Nigeria tried to use a credit card to buy a nonexistent overpriced item from your fake website?

I wouldn't go there if I were you...

CC information needs to be sent to the mods in here. They know how to handle things like that.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:37 pm

@Next victim - that is for CC info obtained in baits. With email trails that can be given to the LEO to show that it is being used in a scam. "I was pretending to be a clueless victims" sounds a lot better than "I got this guy's cc details from my fake website," don't you think?

@Andyops
1. Cash baiting is cash baiting, whether the lad is sending the money to you, a charity, or anyone else.
2. Getting lads to do work for you that you get paid for is probably too close to cash baiting to be discussed here.

There are lots of ways to use fake websites and surveys to screw with lads' minds, without involving cash or ITP's. And those ways are usually ten times funnier.

Baiting Guru Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Posts: 21158

You are likely right bearkat. I was just tossing out an idea for those types. I've tried working a couple of those but they die with no website.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 01 Aug 2010 Posts: 17

bearkat419 wrote:

@Next victim - that is for CC info obtained in baits. With email trails that can be given to the LEO to show that it is being used in a scam. "I was pretending to be a clueless victims" sounds a lot better than "I got this guy's cc details from my fake website," don't you think?

@Andyops
1. Cash baiting is cash baiting, whether the lad is sending the money to you, a charity, or anyone else.
2. Getting lads to do work for you that you get paid for is probably too close to cash baiting to be discussed here.

There are lots of ways to use fake websites and surveys to screw with lads' minds, without involving cash or ITP's. And those ways are usually ten times funnier.

Thank you for your answers Smile

Sorry I have so many questions, but I just want to make sure I don't do something that would result in disdain from the community and would rather than look like a fool now than remove all doubt later.

More questions:
Would creating a free for scammers fake email site which only allowed the scammer to contact the scam baiter (and allowing the scam baiter to have access to advanced functionality such as working thumbnails and corrupt image files) be frowned upon?

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:58 pm

^probably no need, since we can do pretty much all of that using regular mail services anyway.

While the tools and technology are a nice part of baiting, the mind games are far more to the point and really at the core of what we do. When you can hack the mk.1 human brain, you can start landing som heavy hits on the guymen.

To filter out ITPs from your shop, sell something you know about. If it's Ford engine spares, sell them, if it's lawnmowers, sell them. the more specialised the better. Also really good is stuff they never use in Africa like runway de-icing systems. If a scammer come along he won't know any of this from his own backside, and will just order ten of anything. If you find someone who knows the product, wants specific information, performance details and argues about price, he is a genuine customer and needs to be politely directed to a proper supplier. Simples.

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:49 pm

^^ Totally non-existent products are good too. Isn't someone around here selling (or maybe buying) some kind of thermal energy crystals right now? Laughing

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 01 Aug 2010 Posts: 17

bearkat419 wrote:

^^ Totally non-existent products are good too. Isn't someone around here selling (or maybe buying) some kind of thermal energy crystals right now? Laughing

If I do make a sales website I'll have to be very careful with its implementation. Having a site which lists sham products with a "Please negotiate by email" message is just asking for re-use by a scammer, which is something I don't want to risk...

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:50 am

You could just list something for sale on Craigslist or Gum Tree. Scammers hit on anything there.

We have another rule: Don't work harder than your lad does.

Use your mind. They are not looking for Real items to buy. They only pretend to have interest in a transaction in most cases.

Try some straight baiting and see what you can learn from that. THEN after your feet are wet, start thinking about web sites. You don't want to be a fantasy baiter... Shocked

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 01 Aug 2010 Posts: 17

ParaNoid wrote:

You could just list something for sale on Craigslist or Gum Tree. Scammers hit on anything there.

We have another rule: Don't work harder than your lad does.

Use your mind. They are not looking for Real items to buy. They only pretend to have interest in a transaction in most cases.

Try some straight baiting and see what you can learn from that. THEN after your feet are wet, start thinking about web sites. You don't want to be a fantasy baiter... Shocked

Web development is what I'm most passionate about, I don't really mind if I spend more time than a scammer developing a website, which is something I do all the time anyway. Besides, my plan is to make the tools which I'll develop for myself available for use by other baiters so they can add another tool to their repertoire in their fight against advance fee fraud.

I've straight baited before. The main reason I'm developing my own scam baiting specific email provider is because gmail kept suspending my baiting accounts for "suspected fraud" Shocked

All I was doing was straight baiting then too. Confused

So yeah I appreciate your advice but respectfully disagree Wink

How far is too far legally?	View next topic View previous topic