SmartFeedSmartFeed          

Porsche Hangout


WELCOME - YOU ARE CURRENTLY VIEWING 419EATER AS A GUEST

By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics and access other forums reserved for members. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today by clicking here.

ScamWarners.com - Internet Anti-Fraud Center - now open!


 How far is too far legally?

View next topic
View previous topic
 
Post new topicReply to topic
Author Message
Andy419
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 17


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I've recently been developing a scambaiting specific webmail provider, which would have features such as identity and bait management features as well as tools to generate fake websites.
One of my ideas is to create a fake email site which you convince your lad to join (for security reasons I guess) only catch is that it would either require 50 surveys to be completed or $10. Hidden in the eula (check if you have read and agree) would be various stuff explaining the site doesn't actually provide email and that by joining they agree to have any email they attempt to send be intercepted by the scambaiter.

I know it would be nice if surveys were the only option but web hosting costs money, and I'd prefer a business model were baiters don't pay and scammers do.

Then there is also the question, if I used a referral system that saw baiters get a cut of every scammer they signed up, would this count as obtaining funds through deception?

In my opinion it would be fine as long as the scambaiter specifically said to sign up so they could comminicate with him/her and not because its a really good email provider.


Last edited by Andy419 on Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profileSend private message
Ghost
419Eater Admin


Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 5739
Location: In the cellar rattling chains


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Then there is also the question, if I used a referral system that saw baiters get a cut of every scammer they signed up, would this count as obtaining funds through deception?


That's called cash baiting. It's illegal so it's not condoned here.


Quote:
joining they agree to have any email they attempt to send be intercepted by the scambaiter.


That is also not condoned here the same way social engineering access to lad accounts are not.

Quote:
In my opinion it would be fine


It's not fine, sorry.

Something tells me this thread is going to end up locked but I leave it for now but I am removing the poll as it's pointless.

_________________
Easter Egg 2012 Star pony pony Santa pony pony Closed lad accounts Mortar
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
GoRideEmCowboy
419Eater is my life


Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 375


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:36 am Reply with quoteBack to top

As stated, this falls under cash-baiting. Another big thing is that the lads won't be using their own money to pay for the accounts. I work for a large email provider. These lads sign up for accounts everyday and we always find that they used a stolen credit card to sign up. With that, having them pay to sign up would not hurt them financially.

_________________
Closed lad accounts X5
Sand Timer
United States x4
View user's profileSend private message
buried under 419 emails
Baiting Guru


Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 4085


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Cash baiting is a bad idea mainly because in the eyes of law enforcement you are committing a fraud, no matter how noble you cause is. I am not saying it would happen but, I have seen LE do screwier things.

Perfect your bating skills, so you can start to take a mental toll on them, really screwing with a mugus mind is priceless.

_________________
"my dear,
you realy made me a fool which i dont expected from you" mr malambo

"Any money you send to Africa to receive your payment is at your own risk " David Mark


over 1,000 fakes deaded since Oct 2005. This is my current rampage! Mortar x6 Easter Egg 2011 Purple Flower
View user's profileSend private message
Andy419
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 17


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Okay so since its considered illegal and not condoned by 419eater I won't peruse that path Smile

What about having websites which request credit card details for the purpose of sending them to authorities only?

edit ive scambaited before but have never, paid thought to ethical/legal issues in the past
View user's profileSend private message
ParaNoid
** REMEMBERED **


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5123
Location: Looking for Steward.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Welcome to Eater Andy. We do encourage thinking out loud. Many thoughts have been hashed through several times, but how would you know unless you asked or searched.


I would cringe at creating anything that looked like phishing because you have no idea who might stumble into the website.

We work real hard to not involve Innocent Third Parties (ITP) and do activities that would cross legal lines. I personally would not want the police to come to my door looking into a potential phishing site.

That is me and I am a bit ParaNoid.

_________________
Gold Coins here

pony pony Closed lad accounts Goat Goat Goat Goat Sand Timer Easter Egg Easter 2015
Mortar x 4 <b>Looking for a Mentor? Click here</b>

"If I get mad at you, please just understand me. I am just being ParaNoid because I love you so much." - unknown

Visit www.scamwarners.com
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
Canadon Alfa
419Eater is my life


Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 293


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think getting lads to pay for bogus (or misleading) email is clearly cash baiting and shouldn't be done.

I have a somewhat less strict view of the ITP rule. Technically, the teller at WU or MG who has to stand there and endure the lad's "What do you mean, the MTCN isn't in your system?!?!" crap is an ITP, but we all think that's fine because it can't be avoided. Nevertheless, this bogus email idea is not a good one in my opinion.

_________________
"You will not end this life in a happy mode.." --Da Barrister

"I pray that the gorillas will not destroy the slip i.e. the customers copy." -- Div1ne Ok0ye

Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts Closed lad accounts
View user's profileSend private message
Andy419
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 17


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

ParaNoid wrote:
I would cringe at creating anything that looked like phishing because you have no idea who might stumble into the website.

What if the fake site contained one time use codes to make sure it can only be accessed by the scammer?

Also, what is the exact point that cash baiting begins? For example people seem to have no qualms making lads pay for shipping brass statues, is this considered cash baiting?

Also it was mentioned that social engineering to obtain scammer passwords is unethical, but with login information you could warn potentially dozens of potential victims before their lives are (possibly even further) destroyed, does this not justify the obtaining of their passwords?

Edit: Perhaps this topic can be moved to the Scambaiting help forum?
View user's profileSend private message
N N N
Master of Master Baiters


Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 689


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:51 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sadly two wrongs don't make a right. Phishing is illegal, obtaining money under false pretences is illegal.

Persuading a lad to make a brass model or getting himself tattoed is about directing his greed toward something harmless, he decides to spend his money on the project, that's different to you persuading him to part with his (someone elses!) money.

Getting him on safari is still redirecting his greed and still his decision, he doesn't have to do it.

Use your creative talents to prevent lads from scamming but make sure it's legal .... ethics is another question entirely.
View user's profileSend private message
Nailgunner
Moderator


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 8709
Location: ̢̝̣̳̗ͅş̱̖̹͉̬̣̖h̷̗͉̘̱͍̗ͅr͉̙̖̥͡_̛i̦̞n̷͉͈̺̪̯̹E̸͎̫̭̞̙ͅ


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If you , as a baiter, receive money from a scammer it's cash baiting, ie wire fraud, and we don't do it, end of discussion (or the thread will get locked)

To answer the other question about credit cards, these are best had from overpayment or freight forwarding lads who will buy stuff off you, pay with a stolen CC and ask for the overpayment to be sent via Western Union back to their "shipper". If you can snag any of these, great, you get a black pig in your signature like this wee fella . To report the card, PM a moderator with all the info and they will do the business. it's good work.

_________________
TV Star Elite Ninja Team Member Easter Egg 2012 Jack Boot Safari Closed lad accounts Mortar Tattoo United Kingdom Malaysia South Africa United States France Turkey Nigeria
"I still have your name tattoo on me. No woman want me because of this"
"Baster ScamBaiter like you. just leave me alone, and delete my email from you least"
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
next victim
Baiting Guru


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 21168


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:49 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Welcome Andyops. I have an idea if you are set on creating a site. There are quite a few lads in Surplus looking to buy "stuff". I'm guessing quite a few of these would be working with stolen CC info or bogus checks. Make everything on your site ridiculously expensive.

_________________
Closed lad accounts 291+ x 78+ http://yahoonews01.zxq.net/
500 in 6 - 36 pink 11 black
Safari Chairman's Xmas Parti 2012
Sand Timer Hana, Flip It, G spot, Rosy, Cynthia
Cellphone - web store
Just read the posting on Eater. You are one sick motherf****r! Smile-Alan
"The skull with bunny ears was a good enough warning" - Nailgunner
mentors- http://forum.419eater.com/forum/cherrie_mentor_program.php
This Derick moral monster! From http:/ /scamnewss.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/derrick-ratt-scammer-beware/ Vlad blog
http://tinyurl.com/btf7872 - Toolbox
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
Nailgunner
Moderator


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 8709
Location: ̢̝̣̳̗ͅş̱̖̹͉̬̣̖h̷̗͉̘̱͍̗ͅr͉̙̖̥͡_̛i̦̞n̷͉͈̺̪̯̹E̸͎̫̭̞̙ͅ


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^ i would advise against having an automated checkout though, it would look too much like a phishing site if it collected CC info automatically. Handle it all with emails.

_________________
TV Star Elite Ninja Team Member Easter Egg 2012 Jack Boot Safari Closed lad accounts Mortar Tattoo United Kingdom Malaysia South Africa United States France Turkey Nigeria
"I still have your name tattoo on me. No woman want me because of this"
"Baster ScamBaiter like you. just leave me alone, and delete my email from you least"
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
next victim
Baiting Guru


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 21168


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Excellent point Gunner!

_________________
Closed lad accounts 291+ x 78+ http://yahoonews01.zxq.net/
500 in 6 - 36 pink 11 black
Safari Chairman's Xmas Parti 2012
Sand Timer Hana, Flip It, G spot, Rosy, Cynthia
Cellphone - web store
Just read the posting on Eater. You are one sick motherf****r! Smile-Alan
"The skull with bunny ears was a good enough warning" - Nailgunner
mentors- http://forum.419eater.com/forum/cherrie_mentor_program.php
This Derick moral monster! From http:/ /scamnewss.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/derrick-ratt-scammer-beware/ Vlad blog
http://tinyurl.com/btf7872 - Toolbox
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
bearkat419
Baiting Guru


Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 3536
Location: Houston, Texas


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@next victim - if you did that, and tried to turn over the cc details to LEO's... what would you tell them? That this person in Nigeria tried to use a credit card to buy a nonexistent overpriced item from your fake website?

I wouldn't go there if I were you...

_________________
United Kingdom United States Hong Kong Taiwan Whip Sand Timer Mortar Closed lad accounts Easter Egg 2013
View user's profileSend private message
Andy419
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 17


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thank you next_victim, I shall certainly investigate. Twisted Evil
However I am reluctant as it may cause Innocent Third Parties to give up their CC info... However there are ways to make sure only mugus give up their stolen CC details Very Happy (Like making a private auction site)

And I hate to sound like a broken record but I have a few more questions on what is and isn't considered to be cashbaiting:
1. Would directing your lad to a website (such as one of those phoney churches) which has banner advertising which you receive payment for be considered cashbaiting? Or would the advertiser be considered as an Innocent Third Party?
2. Would getting your lad to fill out surveys by marketing companies that you receive payment from in return be considered as cash baiting? You could throw in a couple of your own surveys to make sure they answer questions truthfully, mitigating the ITP that is the marketing companies.
View user's profileSend private message
next victim
Baiting Guru


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 21168


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If I were creating it, there would be none of that involved. It doesn't look proper. Tailor your products to things that lads would be after, i.e. electronics, flashy jewelery, watches, things like that, and make sure the prices far exceed their value. That should keep ITPs away although you may get a few. Just tell them that you are out of stick or something. If you only hit those asking to buy "stuff", chances are good that ITPs wouldn't know about you.

_________________
Closed lad accounts 291+ x 78+ http://yahoonews01.zxq.net/
500 in 6 - 36 pink 11 black
Safari Chairman's Xmas Parti 2012
Sand Timer Hana, Flip It, G spot, Rosy, Cynthia
Cellphone - web store
Just read the posting on Eater. You are one sick motherf****r! Smile-Alan
"The skull with bunny ears was a good enough warning" - Nailgunner
mentors- http://forum.419eater.com/forum/cherrie_mentor_program.php
This Derick moral monster! From http:/ /scamnewss.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/derrick-ratt-scammer-beware/ Vlad blog
http://tinyurl.com/btf7872 - Toolbox
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
next victim
Baiting Guru


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 21168


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

bearkat419 wrote:
@next victim - if you did that, and tried to turn over the cc details to LEO's... what would you tell them? That this person in Nigeria tried to use a credit card to buy a nonexistent overpriced item from your fake website?

I wouldn't go there if I were you...


CC information needs to be sent to the mods in here. They know how to handle things like that.

_________________
Closed lad accounts 291+ x 78+ http://yahoonews01.zxq.net/
500 in 6 - 36 pink 11 black
Safari Chairman's Xmas Parti 2012
Sand Timer Hana, Flip It, G spot, Rosy, Cynthia
Cellphone - web store
Just read the posting on Eater. You are one sick motherf****r! Smile-Alan
"The skull with bunny ears was a good enough warning" - Nailgunner
mentors- http://forum.419eater.com/forum/cherrie_mentor_program.php
This Derick moral monster! From http:/ /scamnewss.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/derrick-ratt-scammer-beware/ Vlad blog
http://tinyurl.com/btf7872 - Toolbox
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
bearkat419
Baiting Guru


Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 3536
Location: Houston, Texas


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@Next victim - that is for CC info obtained in baits. With email trails that can be given to the LEO to show that it is being used in a scam. "I was pretending to be a clueless victims" sounds a lot better than "I got this guy's cc details from my fake website," don't you think?

@Andyops
1. Cash baiting is cash baiting, whether the lad is sending the money to you, a charity, or anyone else.
2. Getting lads to do work for you that you get paid for is probably too close to cash baiting to be discussed here.

There are lots of ways to use fake websites and surveys to screw with lads' minds, without involving cash or ITP's. And those ways are usually ten times funnier.

_________________
United Kingdom United States Hong Kong Taiwan Whip Sand Timer Mortar Closed lad accounts Easter Egg 2013
View user's profileSend private message
next victim
Baiting Guru


Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 21168


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You are likely right bearkat. I was just tossing out an idea for those types. I've tried working a couple of those but they die with no website.

_________________
Closed lad accounts 291+ x 78+ http://yahoonews01.zxq.net/
500 in 6 - 36 pink 11 black
Safari Chairman's Xmas Parti 2012
Sand Timer Hana, Flip It, G spot, Rosy, Cynthia
Cellphone - web store
Just read the posting on Eater. You are one sick motherf****r! Smile-Alan
"The skull with bunny ears was a good enough warning" - Nailgunner
mentors- http://forum.419eater.com/forum/cherrie_mentor_program.php
This Derick moral monster! From http:/ /scamnewss.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/derrick-ratt-scammer-beware/ Vlad blog
http://tinyurl.com/btf7872 - Toolbox
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
Andy419
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 17


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

bearkat419 wrote:
@Next victim - that is for CC info obtained in baits. With email trails that can be given to the LEO to show that it is being used in a scam. "I was pretending to be a clueless victims" sounds a lot better than "I got this guy's cc details from my fake website," don't you think?

@Andyops
1. Cash baiting is cash baiting, whether the lad is sending the money to you, a charity, or anyone else.
2. Getting lads to do work for you that you get paid for is probably too close to cash baiting to be discussed here.

There are lots of ways to use fake websites and surveys to screw with lads' minds, without involving cash or ITP's. And those ways are usually ten times funnier.

Thank you for your answers Smile

Sorry I have so many questions, but I just want to make sure I don't do something that would result in disdain from the community and would rather than look like a fool now than remove all doubt later.

More questions:
Would creating a free for scammers fake email site which only allowed the scammer to contact the scam baiter (and allowing the scam baiter to have access to advanced functionality such as working thumbnails and corrupt image files) be frowned upon?
View user's profileSend private message
Nailgunner
Moderator


Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 8709
Location: ̢̝̣̳̗ͅş̱̖̹͉̬̣̖h̷̗͉̘̱͍̗ͅr͉̙̖̥͡_̛i̦̞n̷͉͈̺̪̯̹E̸͎̫̭̞̙ͅ


PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^probably no need, since we can do pretty much all of that using regular mail services anyway.

While the tools and technology are a nice part of baiting, the mind games are far more to the point and really at the core of what we do. When you can hack the mk.1 human brain, you can start landing som heavy hits on the guymen.

To filter out ITPs from your shop, sell something you know about. If it's Ford engine spares, sell them, if it's lawnmowers, sell them. the more specialised the better. Also really good is stuff they never use in Africa like runway de-icing systems. If a scammer come along he won't know any of this from his own backside, and will just order ten of anything. If you find someone who knows the product, wants specific information, performance details and argues about price, he is a genuine customer and needs to be politely directed to a proper supplier. Simples.

_________________
TV Star Elite Ninja Team Member Easter Egg 2012 Jack Boot Safari Closed lad accounts Mortar Tattoo United Kingdom Malaysia South Africa United States France Turkey Nigeria
"I still have your name tattoo on me. No woman want me because of this"
"Baster ScamBaiter like you. just leave me alone, and delete my email from you least"
View user's profileSend private messageSkype Name
bearkat419
Baiting Guru


Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 3536
Location: Houston, Texas


PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:49 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ Totally non-existent products are good too. Isn't someone around here selling (or maybe buying) some kind of thermal energy crystals right now? Laughing

_________________
United Kingdom United States Hong Kong Taiwan Whip Sand Timer Mortar Closed lad accounts Easter Egg 2013
View user's profileSend private message
Andy419
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 17


PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

bearkat419 wrote:
^^ Totally non-existent products are good too. Isn't someone around here selling (or maybe buying) some kind of thermal energy crystals right now? Laughing

If I do make a sales website I'll have to be very careful with its implementation. Having a site which lists sham products with a "Please negotiate by email" message is just asking for re-use by a scammer, which is something I don't want to risk...
View user's profileSend private message
ParaNoid
** REMEMBERED **


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5123
Location: Looking for Steward.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

You could just list something for sale on Craigslist or Gum Tree. Scammers hit on anything there.

We have another rule: Don't work harder than your lad does.

Use your mind. They are not looking for Real items to buy. They only pretend to have interest in a transaction in most cases.

Try some straight baiting and see what you can learn from that. THEN after your feet are wet, start thinking about web sites. You don't want to be a fantasy baiter... Shocked

_________________
Gold Coins here

pony pony Closed lad accounts Goat Goat Goat Goat Sand Timer Easter Egg Easter 2015
Mortar x 4 <b>Looking for a Mentor? Click here</b>

"If I get mad at you, please just understand me. I am just being ParaNoid because I love you so much." - unknown

Visit www.scamwarners.com
View user's profileSend private messageSend e-mail
Andy419
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 01 Aug 2010
Posts: 17


PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

ParaNoid wrote:
You could just list something for sale on Craigslist or Gum Tree. Scammers hit on anything there.

We have another rule: Don't work harder than your lad does.

Use your mind. They are not looking for Real items to buy. They only pretend to have interest in a transaction in most cases.

Try some straight baiting and see what you can learn from that. THEN after your feet are wet, start thinking about web sites. You don't want to be a fantasy baiter... Shocked


Web development is what I'm most passionate about, I don't really mind if I spend more time than a scammer developing a website, which is something I do all the time anyway. Besides, my plan is to make the tools which I'll develop for myself available for use by other baiters so they can add another tool to their repertoire in their fight against advance fee fraud.

I've straight baited before. The main reason I'm developing my own scam baiting specific email provider is because gmail kept suspending my baiting accounts for "suspected fraud" Shocked All I was doing was straight baiting then too. Confused

So yeah I appreciate your advice but respectfully disagree Wink
View user's profileSend private message
Display posts from previous:      
Post new topicReply to topic


 Jump to:   



View next topic
View previous topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



** Find out information about your IP address **


All Content © 2003 - 419Eater.com
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group :S5: FI Theme :: All times are GMT