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 Is scambaiting illegal?

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DontFearTheReaper
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:28 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I mean, morally, you're just doing to them as they are to you; but legally, is fraud not fraud even if it's counter-fraud?--I'm in the US btw.
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Ima Baeder
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi and welcome. Very Happy

No, it's not illegal. We don't ask the scammers for money, we promise to let them steal ours. We're not committing fraud, we're lying. Wink

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DontFearTheReaper
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Ahh, I read some scambaits where they did ask for money and receive it.
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Ima Baeder
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

That's known as cash baiting and hasn't been practiced here in years. (long before I was even a member). If you read the forum rules and FAQ's there's an entire section about this.

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Dr. Ivor Bollockov
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

DontFearTheReaper wrote:
I mean, morally, you're just doing to them as they are to you; but legally, is fraud not fraud even if it's counter-fraud?--I'm in the US btw.


Illegal? NO
Fraud? NO

Quote:
you're just doing to them as they are to you
NO

Do a little bit of research Mr. Reaper before attacking us. We don't seek to make any pecuniary advantage from these scammers!
We're just hoping that by engaging them with an *ahem* false promise, we can prevent them from targeting a genuine victim.

Many years ago, one or two here did do a cash bait (and it was funny to see the results) but ultimately it was decided that it did
more harm than good.

Care to join us? (or are you happier pontificating about the so called morals)

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Last edited by Dr. Ivor Bollockov on Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pandora
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Ethical scambating is legal, this form of scambating is what is socially accepted and done around here, and all we're doing is waisting their time to prevent them from scamming other people not in the know.

Now what we do to have fun with them is send them on safaris and send pictures and such, which may cost them money, and the only profit we get is the laughter, and entertainment of millions of people on the internet.

Now just like hacking there are White/Grey/Black hat hackers, and the same goes for scambaiting, which is NOT accepted here, and will get you thrown out quick. Object of Un-ethical scambating would be to get money from the scammers, maliciously put them into harms way, and do any kind of hacking/viruses/trojans to their computers
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Mr Tambourine Man
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Not another ethics thread! Crying or Very sad

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Pandora
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:18 am Reply with quoteBack to top

We must educate the people not in the know!
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Tigbitties
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:36 am Reply with quoteBack to top

welcome to Eater, DontFearTheReaper. I think you've asked a perfectly legitimate question but my view is I don't think I'm doing anything illegal or immoral. Yes, I tell them a heap of lies every day, and some people do think that's immoral and even say it makes us as bad as the scammers. The way I look at it this; If a mad axe man who was chasing a victim stopped and asked me which way the victim went, would it be immoral for me to tell him a lie. OK, a bit extreme, I know, but I sleep well at night knowing I've spun a web of lies to these pests.

Be prepared for some vigorous replies to your question from baiters, but it's only because similar questions get raised here with regularity. We do work to a code of ethics here and you'll see these in the stickies at the top of each forum. I hope you'll decide to join us as an active baiter and if you do, there's plenty of help available from other baiters here.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@Dr. Ivor, I don't think it's fair to yell at Reaper the way you did. First of all, he asked the question in a very non-hostile way, and secondly, a few posts down he realizes that we do not scam these guys for money or anything. Accusing him for attacking us and pontificating is just uncalled for. It's clear to me that he wants to be enlightened, not judgemental.

@Reaper, I hope you're a bit more enlightened now, and in case you have more questions, just drop them here and I'm sure you will get your answers. Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:36 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bad Ivor very bad. go to your room. Wink

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ChoppaOfDolla
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@ Reaper:

There have been a few threads like this before; always, the conclusions have been that:

* For the most part, scambaiting is legal. Some baits where we obtain art and the like under false pretences probably aren't, but there have been no cases where a baiter has actually been prosecuted for it. The most common baits, where you simply annoy the lads and waste their time, are legal.

* Scammers are extremely unlikely to report any sort of baiting activity to the police, because they would get in trouble themselves.

* The cops aren't interested in prosecuting baiters. Some people on this site have (or claimed to have) asked police officers about this, and the answer has always been that it would be like being asked to investigate a drug dealer selling fake drugs- they wouldn't be interested in doing it.

There is one case I'm aware of where a baiter almost got into trouble. In that case, he set up a fake bank and encouraged scammers to use it for their transactions (the idea being that victims' payments wouldn't get through to them). He was arrested, but no charges were actually pressed:

http://www.occ.treas.gov/ftp/alert/2004-19.txt

Even in that case, the fact that he was a baiter was not the main concern of the authorities.

Some other activities are potentially illegal (such as impersonating bank officials or police officers), but again I'm not aware of any cases where a baiter has been prosecuted for this.

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The Monsignor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The Member has every right to ask the question. The bullying response given above was inexcusable.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ If I may add to the above, in many countries it's a law or common practice not to prosecute you if the 'public interest' in a prosecution doesn't justify the effort.
In other words, even if a baiting-related activity is technically slightly illegal, the authorities are free to (and often will) sweep minor offences under the rug.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:21 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You don't wanna piss of the Dane lest he take you to Millers Crossing.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Welcome to Eater, DontFarTheReaper. Smile

They write fiction and tell stories, and so do we. They do it to steal, we do it to waste their time, get their details to close their illegal bank accounts, close down their fake websites, close their phony phone and electronics "selling" businesses, and more, all to cause the scammers financial pain and lost money. Our actions help protect and warn victims of these scumbag criminals, and occasionally help get them arrested. There are lots of different ways that you can help here. Read through the website and find something that matches your skills and interest. Scammers will never go away, but I'm glad for all the people here who have decided to do a little something about it.

Pandora said:
Quote:

Object of Un-ethical scambating...maliciously put them into harms way,


I disagree with the word "maliciously." I see nothing wrong with sending lads to inconvenient locations, like Timbucktu, that are filled with troops with guns, lousy bug-infested hotels, 120F degree temperatures, and unfamiliar foods. Regardless of all the whining they do about how hash the conditions are, they lie.
They have money or can get it from their associates or family. Because they are criminals and will sometimes try to scam a hotel owner and not pay their bills, they might even get arrested. They might get angry or start a fight. They may get exposed as scammers to the locals, who will justly toss them in jail. What is wrong with that? Nothing. They chose to go there in order to steal money, and they can quit at any time. Even after "suffering!" these hash conditions, they keep going and they continue to scam.

ChoppaOfDolla said:
Quote:

Some baits where we obtain art and the like under false pretences probably aren't
(legal)

Every art bait here I have seen is legal. The lad signs an agreement form before any art is sent. Sample art must be accepted as up to the standards of the buyer or whoever. If it doesn't meet the requirements as determined by the buyer, it is rejected, and no payment will be sent to the lad. Too bad that they suck at being art producers or agents. And every artist that is not a lad gets paid by the lad, make no mistake about that. The lad pays for the art, so no innocent third party is harmed. We get receipts for payment to the artist as well. It looks bad for them and they might get taken to court if they don't pay the artist, if they can even get it out of the artists' hands before paying him which is doubtful.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Don'tFearTheReaper Cool

It's a good question and one I thought about too, before throwing my rather fetching raspberry coloured hat with rhinestones and feathers on it into the ring. Razz

When I think of what these scammers have done to innocent people my blood runs very cold, and what's even better is that what we all do here is legal - and its poetic justice.

As the others have said, we do not cash bait.

We do not do anything which harms innocent third parties or involves them in any way.

Our targets are these scum scammers, and although what we do is fun, it has a very serious objective which is to play these rats at their own game, waste their time and money and ultimately get innocent victims more aware of what scams actually look like. We might even get some scammers slung in jail. Some baiters get bank accounts and scamming websites shut down. It's all good.

Some of us are currently involved in a mass bait of a death threat scammer. I daren't think what someone with a dicky heart might feel if they got these emails, or if they believed them. He really is the lowest form of worm.

I feel very proud and honoured to be a part of this community.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:50 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If it was illegal my mummy wouldn't let me do it Laughing Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:05 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Dr Mike wrote:
You don't wanna piss of the Dane lest he take you to Millers Crossing.


Didn't think of that myself. Great movie, btw. Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

DontFearTheReaper wrote:
... but legally, is fraud not fraud even if it's counter-fraud? ...


here's an interesting twist on this. how about requiring the lad to make a verifiable donation to a legitimate charity?

say, for example, $20 to the red cross or something like that?

i suppose, theoretically, that is cash baiting, but since the money is sent to a charity and never enters your hands...

hmmm...

any legal experts (double-o?) care to expound on this one?

cheers.


grimbleton

====================

AFTER-SUBMISSION ADDITION (hey that rhymed!) BEGINS HERE

i used to be a "skip tracer". for those not familiar with that term, it's someone that has forfeited their bail and for whom an arrest warrant has been issued. it was my job to track them down for the bail bondsmen when the skip went into hiding.

my primary mode of information gathering was "pretense calling" (lying my ass off over the phone). while the lie itself may be immoral, i would never consider it unethical.

when operating in that capacity, you are:

A) bringing a suspect to justice.

B) helping to protect the public from more of their activities.

C) educating those that may not be aware that they are dealing with a potentially very bad person.

frankly, i think A, B and C are all worth being a little immoral in my dealings with people that are trying to destroy honest people's lives. so if i'm going to "go to hell" for something, it might as well be for something that's fun or funny.

cheers again!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
say, for example, $20 to the red cross or something like that?

i suppose, theoretically, that is cash baiting, but since the money is sent to a charity and never enters your hands...


I don't think that there is a problem with this. The thing is that if you get money or other artifacts from the scammer by promising something you are not going to deliver then you are on the dark side.

If the charity can't know that the donation was due to your actions and no one can credit you for the donation then you don't benefit from the donation. Thus there is no gain for you except maybe the satisfaction on someone benefiting and the lad loosing money.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

TheDane wrote:
Didn't think of that myself. Great movie, btw. Wink


But isn't it The Dane from Millers Crossing in your avatar?

Btw "danskjävlar" Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hello, welcome to eater, read the stickies and get a mentor. All questions will be answered in good time if you follow those steps.

Baiting is the art of stalling with just a hint of deception. We show little mercy to lad kind for the simple reason they show little mercy to their victims. Cash baiting is not only ethically forbidden but legally (perpetrates fraud) as well. Two wrongs do not make a right, ever. Asking for a donation to a legitimate charitable organization would be nice but it is still illegal and now you have involved an Innocent Third Party. I am sure they do not want ill gotten gains. Artifacts and documents sent by scammers are not bringing anyone to the darkside. they are trophies and do not equate to cash baiting. Most of the things they send are of no monetary value.

Please review the ethics thread. Thank you. Very Happy


Thanks for all or you. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Ima wrote:
We're not committing fraud, we're lying

If lying to lads is illegal then I'm in BIG trouble Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Dr Mike wrote:
But isn't it The Dane from Millers Crossing in your avatar?


Nope, Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann from Full Metal Jacket. Wink

Dr Mike wrote:
Btw "danskjävlar" Wink


Satans svenskere. Wink

I'm building an inter-Scandinavian force for a mass bait. Want in? Smile

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