Is this for real? ex-Scammer claims to have earned $75k pa

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Master Baiter Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 113

Hi folks,

I had to give up baiting a couple of years ago, as it was taking over my life and the wife hated it!

I've kept an eye on the Eater though, and had some great laughs at your antics!

I just picked this up on Twitter, and thought you guys might be interested

http://www.scam-detectives.co.uk/blog/2010/01/22/interview-with-a-scammer-part-one/

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:17 pm

Interesting article - thanks

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:40 pm

Good find, I hope john returns to continue the interview.

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:45 pm

Surely is a interesting article.
How do you guys notice it when you get passed to another lad?

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:10 pm

What "John" says is certainly true of my experience. When I get "passed" to the Barrister (or whoever), there is a different name from a different email address, and their English language skills are usually better. I have an on-going refugee/consignment box scam bait. It started with the "foot soldier" (Linda Ok4zi), then to the Barrister (Ad3bolu P3pu), and now the security company (Oc3anic S3curity Company-D0ris J0nes). The "foot soldiers" always seem to make the emotional appeals while the Barristers and above are much more businesslike.

BTW, what is it about companies titled "Oceanic" something or other? I can't count the number of different kinds of companies I have encountered with "Oceanic" in their name. Same gang maybe or do the lads just think this sounds impressive for some reason?

Master Baiter Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 113

I hope "John" comes back too.

Dammit I've spent far too long going through the most recent baits. I'm itching to get back into it now!!

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:27 pm

I don't believe everything he says, and i certainly don't believe he stopped scamming. There are not that much gangs with a hierarchie like that. It's more common that the oga is like a spider in a web with his lads all around him which have their own format.

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:30 pm

Great read. I'm printing it out to give to my mom so maybe she can get a better understanding of how it works. Maybe it'll help her not give in to the scammers.
Thanks for the link.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 30 Oct 2008 Posts: 2

Hmm, seems suspicious that a convicted Nigerian fraudster gets a visa for the UK.

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:09 pm

^^^
Good observation...

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:32 pm

^^^^ that was one of the reasons for not believing everything the lad said.

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:05 am

Mr Y wrote:

Hmm, seems suspicious that a convicted Nigerian fraudster gets a visa for the UK.

Good point and an interesting fairy tale. A scammer got convicted in Nigeria?? Yeah, sure. Next we will be expected to believe that Santa is real and the cheque really is in the mail.

Seems more likely this is fake and the 'lad' lied through his teeth to get entry to his country of choice.

In my experience, crooks RARELY reform and always lie. Like a dug addict, they cannot resist the temptation - 'easy' money for nothing is just far too tempting to resist.

Ever heard of the long con? Wonder what this lad is really playing at here.

Master Baiter Joined: 29 Nov 2006 Posts: 113

I've contacted the site owner at Scam-detectives and pointed him/her in the direction of this thread.

I've suggested that they may wish to come and chat with you about how to proceed with the interview in the even that "john" makes a reappearance.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Good Morning!

I am the site admin over at http://www.scam-detectives.co.uk

Firstly, I'd like to thank chc74 for inviting me here and drawing my attention to this forum, and to thank the site owners here for a fantastic resource and a lot of fun reading!!

"John" contacted me last week via Skype. He had apparently picked up the site via our twitter feed (@scam_detectives) and wanted to tell his story to our readers. I was both surprised and suspicious as to his motives but had a long conversation with him, the results of which you have seen.

I took advice from our local Police "e-crime" co-ordinator and, following her advice I decided to proceed with publishing the interview (with extreme caution) as I felt that an insight into the background, commission and structure of the 419 scam would be of interest and help warn our readers, and may help friends and relatives to convince potential or actual victims that they are in fact being scammed and to get help.

As I mentioned in the opening disclaimer, it is impossible to corroborate "John's" story, although I did check with the Home Office to ascertain that a criminal conviction would not necessarily bar "John" from studying in the UK. I also checked that his claimed 2 year imprisonment was a realistic sentence for committing online fraud in Nigeria. This is consistent with a conviction in 2005 which you can read about here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4690031.stm

"John" has agreed to call me again today to continue the interview.

What areas do you think I should explore further with him if he does call?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:32 am

Greetings

Thanks heaps for taking the trouble of getting back to us.

I admit I am very suspicious of this person's claims and concerned about what he is really up too. A reformed nigerian scammer studying in the UK sounds oxymoronic ... but I will be delighted to be proved wrong.

I do appreciate the trouble you went to in trying to check this guys' story out. There are limits to what any of us can do in this regard and shy of a lie detection interview, we might never really know with certainty. Such is life.

My primary concern is that this person might find more out about anti-baiting activities, techniques and personnel than we might learn from him. That might be one long con. Another is that he might see this an an opportunity to lie doggo for a while and recommence from the UK (assumes he is telling at least some truth). Having a UK IP has some advantages over a Nigerian IP address surely.

So ... how can we tell if the info he gives is credible and useful above that not readily available on the internet and without tipping our hands in any tiny way? Dunno to be honest. But like all cons, this 'opportunity' seems too good to be true ...

Questions for the scammer dude
____________________________
Will 'John' give you the contact details of his Nigerian handler to verify his claims?

How can he convince people that he is not doing a business course so that he can become an even better scammer back in Nigeria? (Another big concern.)

What does he intend doing to help us catch scammers ... now and in the future?

Scammers in Nigeria are like fleas on dogs, they are everywhere ... he must know people who know people so why not give this info to the Bristtish Police ... names, dates, victims, scams, scripts - the works?

It is likely that he was not the only member of his family or friends to be doing this so have any of them ever been brought to justice because of info he supplied?[=link]

Get him to provide you with original documents to support his claims about the conviction, current activities and how he managed to get into the UK at all.

I have a tough time believing that the UK government would allow a convicted criminal like this to come into the country ... especially given Nigeria's links with terrorism and major crimes. He needs to prove how this happened.

Finally, and this is a tough ethical issue if he is telling the truth, is the UK better off with him in the country or better off if he was deported? Should you contact your local politician to see if this criminal can be deported? I'm inclined to go with my instincts and say "hell yes!"

Sorry if I sound overly cynical ... I just do not believe a word he says about being reformed.

Baiting Guru Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3193

I don't see anything in the interview that I would not believe. Even the numbers he gives seem to be in the right ball-park, and the average loss per victim is not well-known.

John certainly knows the scamming world at least as well as I do. I would give him the benefit of the doubt until he asks for money.

Very few scammers quit the business, and we can do little to them to convince them to do so. There have been maybe two reformed scammers since I have joined, but even those were dubious. On the other hand a couple of years in a Nigerian jail and the threat of physical violence against one's family would have a sobering effect on anyone. That sort of experience may well have caused John to rethink his life.

We have seen this sort of interview before, from scammers who were almost certainly still scamming, and planing to use the interview to gain the trust of their interviewer with a view to extracting money from them. A scammer will say anything he thinks you need to hear to make you send him money, and they can be very patient. Some of the love scammers wait eighteen months before asking for money.

If he does come back to you, I'd be interested in hearing about any face-to-face meetings with victims that he was involved with - how they were arranged, what the victim's experience was, how often victims are robbed and/or ransomed, vs. being given a view of the money and sent home, how many gang-members were involved, what each did, whether they acquired offices, maybe actually in government or bank buildings, or did everything in hotel rooms, whether they worked the wash-wash scam or did something else to convince the victim the money was nearer but still not quite there.

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:20 pm

Welcome here scamdetect!

Like dogsbum i'm allso suspicious about this one. But you have a good opportunity to get more information about scams published on the internet. So could you dig a little deeper in the way these scammers work. What kind of formats they use, how lads learn to manipulate their victims and who is teaching them. Where do they get the knowledge on how to work on the mental state of their victims. I allso would like to know how much these scammers gangs are involved in bribery of officials and even the police force.
Our best weapon against scammers is education. The more information you can publish the better it is. If your interview gets read by lots of people and it will keep them from being scammed you have done a great deal.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Hi dogsbum (great handle btw)

Thanks for this.

I'm not sure how forthcoming "John" will be with actual details to verify his claims. I don't have his name, or any identifying details, so I doubt very much that he will put me in touch with his EFCC handler (if such a person exists), or supply documentation proving his conviction or right to enter the UK.

If I push too hard, I'll probably lose him, and I feel that the info he's providing is more valuable than proving his bona fides.

I agree that "John" probably shouldn't be in the UK. Again, I don't know enough about him to trace him and report his presence or lobby for his removal.

He claims emphatically that he's studying in the UK to enhance his chances of getting a decent job.

I have no intention of educating "John" about baiting, which is why I won't be providing a link back to eater. My primary aim is to educate my readership and I feel that I should extract as much info from "John" about the techniques used to pull off these scams as possible before he breaks contact to achieve this.

As such, I plan to discuss more "victim orientated" subjects with him when (if) he calls me today, such as:

What happens when the victim cannot, or will not, pay anymore

Supporting documentation - fake ID's, shipping dockets, websites etc

Recovery scams

Mules & Fake Cheques

Anything else?

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Thanks Vampire, (you posted while I was typing my response to dogsbum)

Some good stuff there, I'll include your questions as well.

Thud419

Sorry, missed your post in-between! I'm also interested in face-to-face experiences . Will certainly work that into the mix!

EDIT: The interview has had over 300 individual views that haven't come from this forum - the message seems to be getting out there!

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:00 pm

Hi again ScamDetect

Saw the msgs from Vampire, Thud419 and your responses. All sounds reasonable.

Wonder what motivated John to contact you at all and then how did he come across you? Did he know of your existence because of his activities, current contacts or via a google search?

If I was a reformed Nigerian scammer whose family had been threatened by Nigerian criminals then I probably would do nothing at all to make a bad situation worse and or leave the country. I would probably do as I was told ... including gaining intel on a lucrative market like the UK. How much more effective is the guy going to be with a newly kitted out enhanced language skill that includes common use expressions, knowledge of local haunts, access to high speed internet services etc etc.

Language anomalies stand out a mile as does the errors lads make when confronted by local idioms, actual places and people. I do hope he is genuine but he will be formidible if he goes back to the trade again. Might not even be able to pick him ... apart from the gimme request. And if someone hit me with one after 18 months with excellent language and context skills (as Thud419 observed) then I will probably not even notice. The guy might be a major developing problem and it would be worth getting a good close look at him.

But if I did contact someone like you, even anonymously, then I would certainly give blow by blow info on script development, social engineering tactics, my local IT resources, corrupt officials and so on. You see, my conscience would not let me rest until I did something to balance the karma register.

Compare this to John ... although I accept cultural and ethical differences may make this a bit like catching smoke with a fork in a cyclone. It comes down to why the dude sought you out and why he comes back ... hmm

We are fairly well versed on many strategies employed by these crooks. Hopefully. So what ones don't we know about ... ? Are local Western Union and MoneyGram people part of this problem? It has always bothered me that Western Union is the preferred method of stealing victim funds and yet the company does bugger all to make this process a bit more difficult for crooks to exploit. So either it's a matter of why ruin a good thing (volume revenue) and or why ruin a very good thing (local staff take a percentage of volume revenue).

A good investigative approach is generally to follow the money ... what does he know about the money trail? Where does it lead?

DogsBum seemed appropriate somehow given I have a face like one Smile

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:25 pm

Hi Scamdetect, welcome and thanks for the effort you have been putting in. Im happy with your line of questioning so I am not going to suggest anything different, but can I ask, have you, or could you have some email interection with him, rather than skype so we can attempt to verify his location.

Although it is possible he knows enough to get a masked ip, or have someone actually in the UK send it for him, I believe it would go a long way to verifying his claims if we can at least find out if he truley is in the UK and not west africa.

Thanks again mate

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 14

Well he called!

I tried to get more info about his EFCC activities, his visa application etc, but he clammed up on that. He told me that he thought I was trying to trick him into revealing more about him than he wanted to tell. He was also reluctant to talk about official corruption (at either WU or Police level)
although he said that "everyone had their cut"

I abandoned that approach and we talked more about the construction of the formats, how he was "mentored" through the process of worming his way into the confidence (his words) of the victim and how he would deal with a victim who was getting cold feet or getting into debt to pay the "fees".

We talked about face-to-face contact and he said that he hadn't actually met any victims, but had personally set 2 up for meets in Amsterdam for "wash-wash" scams. One was a no-show and the other was taken for "about" £17k and went home.

I'm afraid I got really p1ssed off with him when he started telling me about the mechanics of the recovery scam, and I found it very difficult to bite my tongue. I may have blown it, but tbh I don't think there's very much more for "John" to tell me.

Going to write up notes tonight and will probably post Interview Part 2 in the morning.

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:41 pm

Thanks scamdetect, i apreciate it. Can't wait to see part two.

Baiting Guru Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3193

scamdetect wrote:

I'm afraid I got really p1ssed off with him when he started telling me about the mechanics of the recovery scam, and I found it very difficult to bite my tongue.

That's perfectly understandable; it's a horrible and evil scam. But having the nuts and bolts explained may do a lot of good. If a victim reads it, they may just see the light.

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:05 am

ScamDetect you have done well. If this lad (term used deliberately) got all huffy then screw him because he is of little use to us. I doubt I would be any good talking to someone like this because each question would be prefaced with a smack to his head just for emphasis.

His response to your legitimate questions concerning his background sounded vaguely familiar ... oh yeah, it's what I see every time I ask any lad about their stories. They get all huffy and want to take control ... "why don't you trust me" and feign indignation. Well I don't trust you because you are a lying, cheating scumbag crook who would happily bleed me white.

Is anyone on 419Eater a phychologist ... better yet a forensic psychologist? We could really do with some guidance about how to effectively interrogate John and then how to protect ourselves from the process.

Well done ScamDetect. Better go take a long shower.

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