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 Keshe Space Foundation scam

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foo
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ I doubt there will be any "demonstration". He'll just keep putting it off and giving excuses.

Still waiting on a response from GoDaddy.

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Spock123
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:21 am Reply with quoteBack to top

He will never demonstrate his technology. I am just waiting to see what excuse he comes up with. These guys are very creative when they come up with excuses. For instance he says he cant demonstrate it at the SPESIF conference because the US government wont allow him to transport the technology there. I was shocked that he was invited to give a lecture at John Hopkins university. It will only allow him to perpetuate his scam.
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Connie L. Gus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:08 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Is that not to be confused with Johns Hopkins? Where did you see that? Maybe they have a beer and pizza night and wanted some entertainment.

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Dr_Pimper
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This whole Keshe space travel thing seems almost like some strange cult. It kinda reminds me of that episode of The Simpsons where they all join that cult that is lead by 'The Leader' and they all believe he is building a spaceship that will fly them to a planet called Blisstonia (I think that's what the planet is called...) Laughing .

Anyway, this is definitely strange and I would not be surprised if he is a few biscuits short of the barrel...

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benjamindover
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

If there is a craft, selling trips on it would run afoul of national regulations, either through http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/ or http://www.verkeerenwaterstaat.nl/ depending on where the launch occurs. You can't sell flights to the public on a craft that hasn't got regulatory approval, nor can you fly to space without the craft being registered in the nation of launch & with the U.N. (Outer Space Treaty.)

If there is no vehicle, selling trips on it would be fraud.

Whether his science is wacky (it is) is beside the point. What anyone believes about the "science" behind it is also beside the point.

I could potentially build something and get it to space and back, with conventional means. That doesn't mean I can sell trips on it.

The specific claims made on the sale would determine whether the sale involves fraud. Getting advice on travel fraud would probably be the way to go on pursuing this.

If this guy claims to have hardware he's running, local safety authorities may have an interest in that. I couldn't test rockets in my backyard, not to mention "plasma magrav reactors". Nor could I launch vehicles, no matter how benign the propulsion. They have to travel through airspace to get to and from outer space, and there's regulation for space travel as well. I think this guy's got nothing but moonbeams, but he's claiming otherwise.
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Connie L. Gus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Excellent points. The craft would have to go through an approval process that would take years before any flights could be sold. Since this thing appears to carry more than 9 passengers, the driver would need an airline transport pilot license. There's a weight threashold of 5,600 Kgs but that does not apply to antigravity delusional tossers.

Splad does reply to normal baiting techniques but has twigged on my first photo. I just attached the photo out of general principle. If this were a legitimate foundation, a simple photo would not be grounds to get ignored. Good thing I parallel process.

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Mega Bandit
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well, I just got back from a tour of some Keshe-related stuff on the Internets via Google search, and, well...I don't know what to say. If Keshe ever gets sued, as I hope he does, I'd like to join the lawsuit and demand my IQ points back. My experience has provided me a view of human stupidity like I've rarely had before, forgive me if that's hyperbolic. I wrote up this long post to get a sort of catharsis to relieve myself of the dumbness of all I've read today. Perhaps this post is just a disguised rant.

Without further ado, my long-winded analysis of the whole mess:

Keshe is definitely a scammer. He claims to have all these big-time scientific contracts and such, but I have yet to find evidence of ANYONE who has met him and worked with him. I could be wrong, however. If anyone has any links connecting Keshe to a single respectable scientist or organization--indeed, a single person other than himself, I would appreciate it. In addition, Keshe makes ridiculously convenient claims that he is being suppressed by the government that doesn't want him to succeed. Finally, the unprofessionalism in how he conducts himself on his forum is astounding. I will get to the most egregious example of that later on.

Now, I cannot prove him wrong by myself. I sadly don't have the expertise in science necessary to refute his theories. However, I have seen his defenders being charged with pseudoscience and inaccurate claims, etc., from those who do appear to know about science, and I have not seen effective rebuttals from said defenders--mainly just namecalling, it seems. This does not prove that Keshe is wrong, only that those who disagree with him appear to be smarter than those who agree with him. The closest thing to a rebuttal I've seen was something to the effect of (I am paraphrasing now, and I don't remember whether it was from Keshe or one of his defenders) "You're wrong because you rely on the currently accepted understanding of physics. The Keshe Foundation's new technology has recently discovered that the accepted facts are wrong." Rolling Eyes

His defenders/followers on the Keshe Foundation forum are downright creepy. They really are almost like a cult; they want so desperately to believe it is true. The atmosphere of the community also reminds me a bit of the Flat Earth Society. Maybe I am misjudging them, but I think I know a stupid community when I see one. I've also seen a couple of their guys on unrelated forums trying to lead people to the Keshe Foundation and basically calling anyone who is skeptical a closed-minded idiot, although I don't think they used those exact terms. (Incidentally, I've found that the most closed-minded people of all tend to be those who insist that there is zero chance that their beliefs are simply BS.)

Now I will give my analysis of some forum threads involving the OP, Spock123. Spock123, since this post is mainly directed at our fellow 419eaters, I will refer to you in the third person and I hope it does not look like I am talking behind your back or something. I mean no disrespect by it. I also assume you are a user on some other forums called Kumaran, and if this is incorrect then please tell me.

Ok, here it is:
If I am correct that our Spock123 is Kumaran (based on his mention of Keshe calling him a terrorist), he clearly has quite a vendetta against Keshe--and on principal I can't blame him for being determined to expose the hoax. He's been on scam.com warning people in a thread quite bluntly about Keshe. At first, I must be honest and say he struck me as a bit of a ranter/raver (sorry, Spock123 Embarassed), especially when he accused one of Keshe's defenders of being one of "Keshe's people" or Keshe himself. At first I thought it was rather an unfair accusation, but when I read the defender's non-rebuttal, followed by a post by Keshe himself (!), I realized he was probably right, or might as well have been. (Like Kumaran himself, Keshe and the defender had clearly joined only to make their posts in that thread.)

This is the weirdest part:
In his post on scam.com, Keshe linked to his own forum, to a post in which he accused Kumaran/Spock123 of being a bonafide TERRORIST intent on killing lots of people (seriously!), and that Kumaran wants to discredit Keshe so he can steal the Keshe Foundation's technology to make weapons with it, or something. It involves some email transcripts that I can only assume were either made-up, or Keshe essentially being scambaited.

Now, I have seen some indefensibly stupid things while trolling the forums of the Internet. I have seen Neo-Nazi forums, bestiality-supporting forums, and the aforementioned Flat Earth Society forums. But this just made me almost lose hope for humanity as a species. When someone is stupid enough to make an accusation that extraordinary, for a "scientist" to say one of his detractors is a terrorist and hope to have people take it seriously...I just don't know what it means for the world. I just don't know. Maybe I misread the whole thing. Maybe it's not as stupid as I interpreted it. Maybe I'm hallucinating. I can only hope.

Speaking of stupid accusations, one guy even accused Keshe himself, one of Keshe's defenders, AND Kuraman/Spock123 of ALL being the same person. Keshe and his defender, I could believe were the same person (although I think the possibility is under 50%). It's true that Keshe himself responded to a couple of different threads posted by Spock123, but this seems to have been after he felt himself targeted by a persistent detractor, so I believe Keshe Google'd "Kuraman" to make his responses. To accuse Spock123 of being Keshe himself (Constantly trying to warn people against his own scam??) is almost as stupid as anything Keshe has said. It boggles the mind.

Some links:
An argument between one of Keshe's defenders ("broli", the guy who was accused of somehow being Keshe and Spock123--"broli" is also a Keshe forum member) and some of Keshe's detractors:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread484812/pg1

The scam.com argument, featuring Kuraman and Keshe himself (and a link to the above thread, leading to the unreasonable "terrorist" accusations by Keshe and to some other user claiming they were the same person)
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=860657

Kumaran and Keshe on another forum:
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=159579

Keshe's mind-blowingly insane terrorism accusations:
http://keshefoundation.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=111

How to recognize phony science in general (I got the link from Spock123/Kumaran in one of the above threads; Keshe displays a lot of the signs.):
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/fnrg.html

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Spock123
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

It is true that I am the same person who went under the name Kumaran. Initially I almost fell for Keshes scam. I asked him for video evidence and he went beserk on me. After that I no longer trust Keshe. He started calling me names and now calls me a terrorist. He is just a liar. Someone told me he could be a member of Iranian Intelligence on another forum on which i discussed about him. I am beginning to think thats true. For instance Keshe believes Iran should have a nuclear program. What is the use if they already have Keshes technology which will provide energy from water. On another site discussion one of his defenders told me to read a book that says that Hitler was the father of Israel that Hitler was a jew or something. This is Irans policy that there was no holocaust. He is definitely an Iranian secret agent.
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Connie L. Gus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Not to incite a flame war or anything but really.Rolling Eyes I don't want to spend very much time with this Splad Keshes but he does twig really easily. I would suggest working slowly.

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manbiteslion
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

He won't be a secret agent. Secret agents don't try to draw attention to themselves, hence the name, no matter what the sponsoring state.

He's a delusional nutter by the sounds of it - and actually believes his inventions work because he can see them working with his own eyes, every night just after he takes his meds.

Put like this - if they work (they don't) then there are far far greater uses for them than space trips - world-changingly important uses. And seeing as he seems to make this stuff without troubling the world of science, you have to wonder where he's finding all this antimatter from. I know I couldn't just lay my hands on some, Belgian or otherwise. It's easier and cheaper to get enriched uranium, frankly.

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Technomancer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Mega Bandit wrote:
When someone is stupid enough to make an accusation that extraordinary, for a "scientist" to say one of his detractors is a terrorist and hope to have people take it seriously...I just don't know what it means for the world.


Every era has a particular crime that someone can be accused of, about which other people will automatically assume "guilty even if proved innocent", which is then picked up by certain types of people (and governments) and used for random fingerpointing purposes when they don't like someone speaking out against them and want to completely discredit that person and/or attempt to ruin their life.

In the middle ages it was witchcraft. Nowadays, it's terrorism.
Sounds to me like Keshe is just a paranoid nutter who lashes out at anyone who dares to say he's wrong. I wonder if respectable scientists would get the same treatment, lol.

What's 419Eater's position on this guy? Fair game for baiting? I'm definitely tempted. Haven't collected any death threats yet, and I suppose a terrorism accusation will do too Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:16 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The guy is definitely a classic crank.

The reason you won't find a scientific refutation is that:
-there's not enough time to refute every crank.
-the refutation would just be material for the crank to prove they are being suppressed by "mainstream science."
-they'd state the refutation doesn't properly address their claims.
-it won't convince anyone who wishes to be convinced of the crank's claims.
-it gives them the attention they desire. Like feeding trolls.

A reading of a few good books on cranks, such as Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science, or Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries by Kenneth Feder will give a good overview of the crank modalities, so to speak.
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foo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Technomancer wrote:
What's 419Eater's position on this guy? Fair game for baiting? I'm definitely tempted. Haven't collected any death threats yet, and I suppose a terrorism accusation will do too Very Happy

He's a scammer, if that's what you're asking.

Still waiting on a response from GoDaddy, I might resend it later tonight.

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foo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Got this in reply to my resent copy. This is going to be harder than the average fake bank Sad
Quote:
Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for contacting Go Daddy's Spam and Abuse Department.

GoDaddy.com does not allow illegal content on our customer's websites. However, as a hosting provider, it is not our place to determine if the site you have mentioned is actually engaging in illegal activities.

GoDaddy.com regularly works with courts and law enforcement from the local to the international level. If you suspect any of our customers are using their website to engage in any illegal activities, please help us by contacting your local law enforcement agency, and asking them to investigate this situation.

Law enforcement can contact us at [email protected] if they need the website(s) taken down, or if they need more information pursuant to an investigation. We have a long-standing history of cooperation with law enforcement and the courts.

Any disputes over the ownership or wording of the domain name itself will need to be sent to either the registrant, through an arbitration forum such as World Intellectual Property Organization (http://www.wipo.int/), or the local court system. Per ICANN regulations, domain registrars are prohibited from becoming involved in domain ownership disputes.

If you find that, you are unable to contact the registrant because the contact information given on the Whois database is invalid, please write to [email protected] and let them know.


Sincerely,

Spam and Abuse Department
GoDaddy.com
ARID1020


So, effectively, "you're not a cop so you're not important enough for us to care about this".

Ironically, the character I sent that from was an ex-UNATCO agent.

Suggestions?

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Tigbitties
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

manbiteslion wrote:
you have to wonder where he's finding all this antimatter

There's a two-for-one offer in B&Q this week. Buy one tin of antimatter and get a tin of gravity free.

Image

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Mlox42
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

From what I have seen around various websites, GoDaddy will do nothing at all for regular people. Even law Enforcement has trouble even from what I read.

Personally I'd some how get the word out to people that his website is a fraud since the host doesn't care.f

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foo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Dale Gribble wrote:
I am your worst nightmare! I have a three-line phone and plenty of time to kill!


I wrote:
Dear GoDaddy Abuse Department:

This man is spreading information that, as I have clearly demonstrated in simple terms in the links I have already given you, is completely made up and not physically possible. He is also using the fact that many people will blindly accept this information to get money from them for flights on a nonexistent spacecraft.

Now compare that with the following definition of "scam artist": A person who attempts to defraud others by presenting a fraudulent offer and pretending that it is legitimate.

That sounds like Keshe to me. He's a scam artist, and you're going to let him go on with his scam because I'm not a cop?

Please reconsider your stance on this. Thank you.

-JC

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Spock123
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:56 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Now Keshe has put controls on his website. Basically anyone who challenges him will be deleted and kicked out of the forum. He did it to me several times only now he is openly saying so. In other words he is adopting the tactics of a dictator. How long can he keep this up.
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Spock123
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

NEVER WIRE FUNDS VIA WESTERN UNION, MONEYGRAM or any other wire service - anyone who asks you to do so is a scammer.
He sent me unsolicited mail basically spam to buy his book.

Dear Sir
This book was released on the 9.7.2009 about the technology.
The contents of this book might interest you, as it has for organisations like NASA, Fermilab, Boeing and number of national space agencies and physics institutes.
 

How the world of physics and space exploration has changed through
Simple working technology.
Keshe foundation invites you to the new world of plasma, fusion, energy, motion and
the new world of space technology
without
the use of propulsion or burning any fuel

and without production of any wastes.

 

"The universal order of creation of Matters"


In this book number of new first principles in physics are explained, these being the like of;


I) The new elementary particles in plasma physics are the "magnetic fields" and not as assumed to be quarks and others. The explanation of how the interaction of magnetic fields leads to creation of quarks and the rest of the effects like its spin and so on (chapter 2).
II) The explanation of the content Matters of the plasma, this being of the Matter, the Antimatter and the Dark Matter and their interactions, and further leading to the creation of plasma and then through the initial fundamentally plasma decay leading to production of the plasma of the proton and the plasma of the electron, and the principle of the rotation of the electron around its proton is explained in detail (chapter 3).
III) How to achieve fusion of any plasmas' of neutron, proton or electron, through dilution of plasma technology rather than present Tokamak systems at a fraction (0. 2%) of their cost in any laboratory in the world at cost of few thousand dollars (chapter 21).
IV) How the Gravitational fields of the Earth are created through interaction of magnetic fields.
How to achieve lift and motion through this new understanding of production of Magnetic and gravitational fields forces through simple systems, which have been developed (chapter19).
V) How rotation of the Earth is created by the planet internally, and what dictates the speed of the rotation of the planet (chapter 1).
VI) The explanation of how the Dark Matters, the dark Rings of Saturn, dark spots on the Sun are created and what they have in common (chapter 13).
VII) How the Antimatters are produced and how to use their constituents magnetic fields and how their effects can be used in simple reactors to create lift and motion and power without rocket technology and burning fuels (chapters 3 and 14).
VIII) The creation of light through the interaction of plasmas (chapters 7).
IX) The explanation of the principle of the creation of light around the crafts equipped with Magnetic and gravitational positioning systems which have been developed for the use in space travel in atmospheric conditions (these lights showing themselves as moving bright lights in the skies) (chapters 22).
Much more explanations of what could not be understood in the working of universal Matters and objects are part of the contents of this book. 

The Book ISBN: 978-94-6087-001-9
The table of contents and some pages of the book are shown ;

https://www.keshefoundation.com/image/eBook/peek-view_pdf.pdf
The book can be purchased in paperback and ebook through this link:

http://www.keshefoundation.com/shop.html
 

Yours faithfully

 

M. T. Keshe

This is another proof that Keshe is a scam artist. This is e mail where he asked me to send money by Western Union and wire transfer. He asked me to pay by Western union or bank transfer. What more can I say he is a scam artist.

Dear Mr Sanmugathasan

You can pay through bank transfer, the cost of book and delivery will be about 45 euros. If you do so please let me know. You have to make sure that we receive 45 euros or use the western union payment, let me know which way is convent for you.

If you would like to know more about the contents of the book, please refer to youtub section of the Keshe Foundation in the links given below. Please view these videos from the No 1 to the No 5, as the explanations in these short movies are interconnected.

In the next few days we will announce the first lift and flight presentation of the system for public. These presentations will be held in one city in each continent over 5 month.

The First Presentation: you can attend the first Magnetic and gravitational field force (Magravs) lift demonstration of these systems and may be you would be able to participate in these presentations personally.

The first "Bright light in the sky"presentation for the lift and the flight capability of these systems will be held somewhere in Asia on 21.3. 2010. Number of seats for each presentation will be about 10 000 seats per city.

Early next week (the week of 20.7.2009) details in respect to five presentation in five continents will be released on the site and all conditions which applies to these presentations and lifts will be explained.

The First Flight : The initial charges and booking for 10 hours of flight in space and for the booking for the first space lift by public through Keshe Foundation before December 2014 will be announced next week.

The cost for these flights will be 19000 (nineteen thousand) euros per person, this will include 9 hours of flight at about 60km distance from the surface of the Earth.

There will be additional charges to experience the weightlessness condition in these space trips. The number of seats available for the first year will about 5000 seats (announcements about these will be given on the Keshe Foundation space.com).

The First Flight to the Moon: We will announce for landing on the Moon by December of 2016, for round trip at the cost of 50 000 euros per person. There will be no disembarkations in these early flights. Number of seats available for the first year about 1000 seats (announcements about these will be given on the Keshe Foundation space.com).

There will be no need for space training, as the condition within these flight systems will be atmospheric condition as the present days jetliner flight conditions.

I hope you enjoy the new science and may be you can bring this new knowledge to new generations.

Yours faithfully
M T Keshe
on behalf of the Keshe foundation
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foo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Spock123 wrote:
NEVER WIRE FUNDS VIA WESTERN UNION, MONEYGRAM or any other wire service - anyone who asks you to do so is a scammer.

You're preaching to the choir Wink

Quote:
You can pay through bank transfer, the cost of book and delivery will be about 45 euros. If you do so please let me know. You have to make sure that we receive 45 euros or use the western union payment, let me know which way is convent for you.

Notice he didn't ask for PayPal? Very Happy

Unfortunately the PayPal buttons are still on the site (which is, sadly, still up), but maybe they just suspended his account or something rather than completely terminating it.

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paythecourier
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Could it be that this guy is simply a conman instead of a scammer, a very fine line I agree but a fine line all the same. The mad wacky scientist thing is maybe just a "con". Just a thought as whatever he is he is not your typical scammer.

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foo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

What's the difference?

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Technomancer
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Spock123 wrote:
You can pay through bank transfer, the cost of book and delivery will be about 45 euros.


Anyone tried killing off his bank account yet?

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Huntington
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Is someone conning people out of their money, not the same as someone scamming them out of it? and vice versa? whether his wacky scientist persona is real or simply created by him as part of his con/scam, is irrellevant.

That being said, it is possible (unlikely) that he believes his own claims and in his head he isnt conning anyone.... but that doesnt change that he is and that he is doing wrong. It simply makes him a loon thats needs to be stopped.

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benjamindover
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

A resource that may be helpful with this is the skeptics:

http://www.csicop.org/
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/

While pseudoscience is not as central to their charter as it once was, it's still one of the things they deal with. Perhaps a professional magician would be interested in attending the forthcoming "demonstrations."

So far as I know, selling a book of pseudoscience through whatever means (WU, MG, etc.) isn't a crime--or else the purveyors of Velikovsky, van Daniken, etc. would be in trouble. (And collectors of fine claptrap like myself would have a harder time filing our shelves. Of course I buy second hand, to avoid supporting the perpetrators through royalties or other means. Besides, like wine, good flimflam improves with age--a few decades to a century is best.)

Selling the trips is another thing, though.
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