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 Ethics question

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Raga Man
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I am contemplating trying something but I am a little concerned about the ethics. I have an on-going bait in which my character is a wealthy philanthropist who is more than willing to pay all the fees necessary to help his new-found “friend” liberate the millions of dollars left for him by his recently departed father. However, I want my lad to use a portion of his new wealth to support worthy causes.

Here is the gambit I am contemplating: To prove he is sincere in his pledge to donate to charity, I want my friend to make an actual, monetary donation to a legitimate charity (International Red Cross, CARE, Doctors Without Borders, etc.). It doesn’t have to be much (small enough that the lad will consider doing it but large enough to pinch a little) and he has to provide proof of his donation. I suspect a lot of lads will either quit on me or squirm mightily to avoid this request. I might get a some crude fake Red Cross receipt (nice trophy and cause for further torment!). Maybe I could actually get some lad to make a real donation – what a great trophy that would be!

Does anyone here see an ethical problem with a legitimate charity benefiting from a scammer’s activities? This isn’t exactly involving an innocent third party in the bait and putting them at risk. I mean, legitimate business people (internet café owners, hotel operators, taxi drivers, etc.) frequently benefit from the activities of scammers and baiters. To me, the irony of a scammer actually coughing up some of his own money to help those truly in need is deliciously rich and worth the attempt.

What do you think?

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VForVendetta1605
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If you can get your lad to make a donation to a real charity than you are doing no harm.. getting your lads to donate to a real charity will be a bait and a half.

I wish you good luck

V

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Badgerbait
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

What you really have to think about is prohibition of cash baiting. While the rule of engagement entail strict avoidance of cash baiting to have the lad send money to the baiter, it doesn't say you can't have them give to a charity.

Conversely, things to consider are: where is the lad getting the money (usually another victim), how are you going to get proof from the lad that he has actually done the requested task, and do you really trust a lad not to try to defraud the target charity.

I think getting a lad to produce an artwork (or somesuch other) for donation to an auction for a charity would be more fun and challenging!

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jose_cuervo
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think you will only end up with a lot of fake forms.

If you do convince the lad to donate money to a charity and get a receipt he will then have a new tool (the receipt) to advance his scams.

Why not get your lads to establish their very own community service organization and clean up a landfill?

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Raga Man
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm not interested in a scammer sending me money. Who knows where the donation money would come from? Presumably some of these scammers also have legitimate income. If so, who is to say that this dollar was legit but that one was scammed.

Even if the donation came from scammed dollars, I don't have a problem with that money going to charity. The only thing better would be to send it back to the person they stole it from but that, obviously, isn't going to happen. At least the money won't benefit the scammer.

I like the idea of producing an artwork for a charity auction. I may give that a try one day.

Good point, jose, about giving the scammer a new tool. I wonder how many would be clever enough to try to use it.

Thanks for the feedback.

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mewing_ghecko
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I do not disagree with your idea by any means, I think it is a great idea to try and get lads to help others, instead of ruining victims.

as stated above, my concern would be where did the lad get the money. if he donated by credit card, odds are the # was stolen.

why have the lad show his devotion by donating money? why not have the lad prove his charitable nature and help someone less fortunate than him/her?

IE; have a community picnic, help another paint their house, rebuild a farmers fence, etc. only then will he be deserving of the great reward.

there are plenty of ways to be charitable without donating money.

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Raga Man
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Good point about stolen credit card numbers, ghecko. Definitely don't want that donation showing up on somebody else's bill. Great alternative ideas, too. I still love the irony in making a lad give up some cash but if I get too much resistance, I will offer him one of these other options.

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DrStranglove
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^^

Raga, you have absolutely no way in heaven or hell to know if the lad ever did make the donation.

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Jesperthegoth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I remember a similar case where one of my friends gave the lad a foreign aid charity phone number, I don't remember exactly what number it was and how much did it cost. The lad tried to reach his "maga" several times, instead reaching the foreign aid charity line and paying several dollars for each call, and probably had a fit of rage when he saw his phone bill. What do you think about that, ok or not? We've had no issue in the past having lads book hotels and airplane tickets, I myself don't see anything different apart from the money used for a good cause instead of some hotel's coffers.

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N N N
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

As ethics go there is nothing wrong in "encouraging" someone to make a donation to a genuine charity.

The difference is obvious, if you donate to his worthy cause the money is going in his pocket, it's not going to the Red Cross or whatever genuine deserving charitable cause.

I do prefer the community service idea and having the lad expend some of his energy can be even more fun and entertainment for our community ....
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I personally think that some physical labour (costing him energy and time (which therefore can't be used to steal any money and thus 'costs' him money)) is a better plan than having the lad donate a victim's money to a charity... But by all means do what feels right for you.

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Mortal
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I totally agree with MoP ... Donating victim's money is not the right step.

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mugu_eater
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Jesperthegoth wrote:
I remember a similar case where one of my friends gave the lad a foreign aid charity phone number


^^^^^^
This sounds good


I think its ok to do..true that he prob gone come up with forged forms etc. to prove he donated but if you can find a way to find out he really send money to charity and i am sure there must be charity's where donations are trackable go ahead.i dont see any difference with donations to charity's or spread the wealth around....
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mugu_eater
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Mortal wrote:
I totally agree with MoP ... Donating victim's money is not the right step.


So better to let them spend victims money to internetcafe's or forged documents or phonecalls?I dont get the logic in this reasoning. ConfusedI can give some more examples but those are the main things lads spend there money on to scam victims.So its better that the victims money go to those people then to charity?

PS i like the idea of physical labour alot but that donating a victims money would be wrong to do is a weird statement.
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Nurse Nasty
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:27 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Debate something long enough and you can justify anything.

Here's the situation. We have no idea where this lad will get the money from and you can never really know. There is no way we can tell if he uses a stolen credit card, cash he stole from a victim or his birthday money his Aunty Lucy gave him last week.

If he is spending his money on anything, there is nothing we can do about it, and we'll never, ever, ever know it's origin.

To err on the side of safety, we (that is the eater community) frown upon this practice. We just don't do it. Sure we'd love for this lad to send all his worldly possessions to some worthy charity, but we don't. We can't be sure so why risk it.

We can't tell what to do. We merely advise you on how we like to operate. If you decide to follow through with it, don't post about it here.

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mugu_eater
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Here's the situation. We have no idea where this lad will get the money from and you can never really know. There is no way we can tell if he uses a stolen credit card, cash he stole from a victim or his birthday money his Aunty Lucy gave him last week.
Quote tag fixed:- 7/9




All your arguments could be taken for safari's as well.....dont worrie i dont post in this thread anymore otherwise you might think i am looking for discussions..just wana give my opinion why the arguments dont make any sence.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

We don't accuse you of anything or blame you for anything. We just try to provide the guidance you asked for, but each of us will provide his opinion according to his/her view of right and wrong.

Af for the safaris, they might indeed be paid for with money stolen from victims, but with a safari they are at least away from home and it costs them a serious amount of time. Time which could otherwise be used for stealing more money (or credit card info)

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Corona
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I personally don't think a lad is going to give any money to charity.

Just my 2 cents! Smile

Like others said, "Waste of time!"

Welcome to the facility, Raga Man! Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

mugu_eater wrote:

So better to let them spend victims money to internetcafe's or forged documents or phonecalls?I dont get the logic in this reasoning.


The lad is going to be doing that wether you're baiting him or not.
But you're actually the catalyst in getting him to spend money in the example you've given.

The argument that safaris get a lad to spend a victim's money isn't really that good. In nearly all of the cases I've seen, the lad loses money and victims win (the lad isn't at his PC scamming). Also, a safari hurts a lad a helluva lot more than just getting him to give money to a charity.
I'd also wager that the majority of lads who do travel are the dumb, unsuccessful ones - way too stupid to be spending victims' money.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@ Jesperthegoth - I think you or your friend might be in violation of the ITP provision. Involving innocent third parties (ITP's) is never a good idea.

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SmokinKrabbs
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I agree with basically what everyone has said, doing some community work with pics to prove would be the best way to go about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:21 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Raga Man wrote:
I am contemplating trying something but I am a little concerned about the ethics. I have an on-going bait in which my character is a wealthy philanthropist who is more than willing to pay all the fees necessary to help his new-found “friend” liberate the millions of dollars left for him by his recently departed father. However, I want my lad to use a portion of his new wealth to support worthy causes.

Here is the gambit I am contemplating: To prove he is sincere in his pledge to donate to charity, I want my friend to make an actual, monetary donation to a legitimate charity (International Red Cross, CARE, Doctors Without Borders, etc.). It doesn’t have to be much (small enough that the lad will consider doing it but large enough to pinch a little) and he has to provide proof of his donation. I suspect a lot of lads will either quit on me or squirm mightily to avoid this request. I might get a some crude fake Red Cross receipt (nice trophy and cause for further torment!). Maybe I could actually get some lad to make a real donation – what a great trophy that would be!

Does anyone here see an ethical problem with a legitimate charity benefiting from a scammer’s activities? This isn’t exactly involving an innocent third party in the bait and putting them at risk. I mean, legitimate business people (internet café owners, hotel operators, taxi drivers, etc.) frequently benefit from the activities of scammers and baiters. To me, the irony of a scammer actually coughing up some of his own money to help those truly in need is deliciously rich and worth the attempt.

What do you think?


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