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 Small question concerning legality

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KingsleyZ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I've just picked up my first two lads and am having fun making them run around while I continue to be difficult.

I've told a few friends about this and a few of them wonder how what we're doing isn't illegal if we're just scamming them back.

I've tried explaining it, but I think some of the more experienced baiters could explain this a little better.
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El Nombre
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

only way i can see becoming illegal is venturing into the murky waters beyond the eater rules Wink, (i.e. stuff like cash baiting), since the only thing of any vaule to the lads that we take is their time, not their money

although i'm not an experinced baiter, only 2months under the belt for me Wink

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BluthBanana
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Welcome to Eater, MPFarmer! Very Happy

MPFarmer wrote:
I've told a few friends about this and a few of them wonder how what we're doing isn't illegal if we're just scamming them back.


The first thing that you can tell your friends is that we are not "scamming" but rather we are "baiting." We are merely wasting the time and resources of these scammers by posing as victims. Cash baiting is illegal and is not to be done under any circumstances.

If you haven't done so already I strongly encourage you to read the stickies, visit Eater University, and sign up for a mentor.

Happy baiting! Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Depending on how your bait you could pass the line of legality. Cash baiting or sending 'feces' (something people have read online in the past) or making a fake bank website can get you in trouble, but ordinary baiting isn't a worry.

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Julian Sark
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:56 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I was wondering, what about a trophy-bait that requires the scammer to do something (take a picture, make a sculpture or wood-carving). He is promised money for his work, which he will never receive. While he still might have to invest some cash into this. Isn't that a sort of scam as well?

And I'm sorry if this is discussed already. I'm just curious if this is legal or not and couldn't find a good answer so far.

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irishemigrant
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

You'll likely find the lad has promised payment for the carving, and with luck he'll get the shite beaten out of him when he doesn't pay.

It isn't all that a great concern, to get a carving or art work takes a while, reaper is Mr Artwork Maestro, pick his brains if you want to try for one.

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KingsleyZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Julian Sark wrote:
I was wondering, what about a trophy-bait that requires the scammer to do something (take a picture, make a sculpture or wood-carving). He is promised money for his work, which he will never receive. While he still might have to invest some cash into this. Isn't that a sort of scam as well?

And I'm sorry if this is discussed already. I'm just curious if this is legal or not and couldn't find a good answer so far.


That is one thing I was actually concerned about myself, and I think that's the source of my friend's concerns as well.
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Tsnerd
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi. Very Happy

These types of questions come up fairly often, as do various shades of ethics threads.

Here is one the more recent legality topics from earlier this year:
Legality of promising money

I could post some ethics threads also, but most of those deteriorate and wind up locked, for some reason.

Long and short - most baiting isn't breaking any laws, including getting lads tattooed or sending them to leper colonies.

Ultimately, do what you are comfortable with and no more - if you are afraid that a particular bait will be getting knocks on your door from the authorities, then don't do that particular bait.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Oh boy!

A "legality" turned ethics thread... jump_4_joy


I get some time to be online just in time for re hash. Too bad the search feature doesn't work and the stickyed threads on ethics aren't on the top of the page. [/snarky]


Sorry Mods, I forgot... Embarassed

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jose_cuervo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:47 am Reply with quoteBack to top

The scammer is offering your character a fairytale with promises of great riches if your character follows his simple instructions and sends him some cash along the way.

Your character offers the scammer a different fairytale with promises of great riches, which involves him producing some artwork, if he follows your character's simple instructions and sends some artwork along the way.

Hmmm... sounds exactly the same. Quite the ethical dilemma. Confused

If your character agrees to send Reverend Dr. Edmons Peterjohn Akinwande Esq. $100,000 USD for artwork that meets your character's specific requirements, then by all means your character should immediately pay "Reverend Dr. Edmons Peterjohn Akinwande Esq." upon satisfactory completion and delivery of said artwork.

Reverend Dr. Edmons Peterjohn Akinwande Esq., also being a fictional character created by the scammer, has every right to the cash that was promised. Everyone knows that fictional characters only pay with and therefore only accept fictional cash. They have no use for authentic cash.

If the fictional Reverend Dr. Edmons Peterjohn Akinwande Esq. has a problem with your character's payment means and methods he is fully capable of involving fictional police and fictional courts in retrieving just compensation for his troubles. Make no mistake, he will undoubtedly have his fictional barrister file fictional suit against your character and a fictional judge will most certainly rule in favor of the scammer's character and your character will wind up owing 10 - 20 times the original agreed upon amount.

Bait safe and remember: Sending authentic cash to a fictional character would be the moral equivalent of sending monopoly money to an actual person. Very Happy

edit - grammar and delete a few "fictionals"

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N N N
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:18 am Reply with quoteBack to top

But if you get a fake check or money order from a scammer and he's posted it to you in the US and you handle said document you've just committed a federal offence!

Getting trophies from a lad or sending him on a lost cause mission is fine. I've never been over happy about some of the stuff involving actual body damage (e.g. tattoes) but that's my personal decision. It's always where you choose to draw the line, just don't go beyond what is legal over to what isn't.
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Tsnerd
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:25 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
But if you get a fake check or money order from a scammer and he's posted it to you in the US and you handle said document you've just committed a federal offence!


How so?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^I think he meant to say,

Quote:
But if you get an underage Mexican hooker from a scammer and he's posted her to you in the US and you handle her you've just committed a federal offence!

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devil_woman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Receiving a fake documant in the post is not fraud (think of all the advertising material!)

If you pay the fake check or money order into your account you are a party to fraud (innocent or not).

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Branwen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't think that telling lies is illegal.

If I tell you that I am a 70 year old grandfather of six, who has £4-million in the bank, and play rugby in my spare time, am I committing any crime?

If I then tell you that one day I will send you £800, when I've got no intention of doing so, am I committing any crime?

If you said that I could have $18-million dollars if I just sent you £800, and I didn't believe you, but decided to play along with you, and say, oh yes, the £800 is on its way, am I committing any crime?

If I did send you £800, believing you were going to send me $18-million in return, then you have certainly stolen that money from me by fraudulent means. And that is a crime.

But my lies in return for your lies are not. As far as I am aware.

(And as for other things: I only partake in what my own conscience is happy with. As, I imagine, we all do.)

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thud419
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

MPFarmer wrote:
Julian Sark wrote:
what about a trophy-bait that requires the scammer to do something (take a picture, make a sculpture or wood-carving). He is promised money for his work, which he will never receive. Isn't that a sort of scam as well?

That is one thing I was actually concerned about myself, and I think that's the source of my friend's concerns as well.


My post in the thread that Tsnerd linked to above covers that. Here it is again:

<hr>

If you promise a lad payment for goods or a service and he performs that service or sends the goods, then it is probably breach of contract (civil) and obtaining goods by deception (criminal).

But who is going to report you? The lad might complain a lot, but no way is he going to the police.

If you want to be absolutely clean, these are the ways it has been done:
  • The goods/services are below standard (almost all the time, they will be.)
  • The goods/services are demonstrations to ensure he is worthy of donating money to. You wiggle the $$$, but don't promise anything. See Shiver's art baits on the letters page of the main site.
  • Oops! we've found out you're a scammer. The deal is off. Point out where in the contract it says if he misrepresents himself the contract is void. Point to the form he filled in saying he'd never committed a crime.
  • If the lad is representing himself as being a real charity, then your contract is not to pay the lad, it is to pay the charity. The lad is probably not authorised to enter into such a contract, and if he is, then he's not going to complain you didn't give the money to charity, and he's the only one with standing to complain.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Depending on how your bait you could pass the line of legality. Cash baiting or sending 'feces' (something people have read online in the past) or making a fake bank website can get you in trouble, but ordinary baiting isn't a worry.


Actually sending feces and/or any sort of non-hazardous waste (rotting food, etc) isn't illegal in the US as long as its declared as such and sealed properly.

I can't say anything about UK shipments, however.

Mailing feces, though, IS cliche, boring, overdone, and most would agree unethical. It's just not funny...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

N N N wrote:
But if you get a fake check or money order from a scammer and he's posted it to you in the US and you handle said document you've just committed a federal offence!


Is it? Oh my, I must be falling behind with the law.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm not in the US, but my understanding was that a Post Office money order was deemed to be currency, and therefore possession was a crime, whereas a fake check is only a document and may be possessed with impunity unless the Police decide you have intent to use it. With either offense, it is knowingly doing it that is the crime; real victims are innocent of any crime. So destroy or hand in all money orders, and write FAKE on all other documents, and you have nothing to worry about.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ I suppose it all depends on what exactly the poster meant by "handle".

Quote:
Main Entry: handle
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): han·dled; han·dling \ˈhan(d)-liŋ, ˈhan-dəl-iŋ\
Date: before 12th century

transitive verb

1 a: to try or examine (as by touching, feeling, or moving) with the hand <handle silk to judge its weight> b: to manage with the hands <handle a horse>
2 a: to deal with in writing or speaking or in the plastic arts b: to have overall responsibility for supervising or directing : manage <a lawyer handles all my affairs> c: to train and act as second for (a boxer) d: to put up with : stand <can't handle the heat>
3: to act on or perform a required function with regard to <handle the day's mail>
4: to engage in the buying, selling, or distributing of (a commodity)


There is certainly much room for ambiguity.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It is not illegal to receipt fraudulent checks or money orders. They are, however, prohibited entry in to the U.S. If found during Customs inspection they will be seized and later destroyed. They have no value being fraudulent documents therefore are not negotiable monetary instruments and do not carry penalty. If there is an indication that receiving said documents is a bad habit (i.e. the person is cashing them and or is distributing them with knowledge they are fraudulent they may be subject to further scrutiny by ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforecment), FBI, U.S. Postal Inspectors or U.S. Secret Service, depending on the type of document being immitated.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I only wish I could get prosecuted. Laughing

In my Shorty bait the list of charges would include among other things.

Impersonating a female and conspiring to mobilise the Nigerian army in a hostage rescue, though the last thing was Shorty's idea

.... and female impersonation is legal. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I know the fake check/currency thing is always a question.

Here's how I look at it, as far as the US goes: Walk into a novelty store and you will see fake lottery tickets, checks, credit cards, and currency (of sorts--it's never close enough to really fool anyone). Open your mail and you will see advertising checks--some can be cashed, but cashing them means accepting terms, and some are "samples" like the fake check you may get in a sweepstakes mailing to show you the prize you could win. It is perfectly legal for the companies to make and sell or send these items, and for you to buy or possess them. The companies are required to put the necessary disclaimers on these documents to make it very clear that they are fake or conditional.
If you receive a fake check, and you clearly indicate that it is fake in indelible ink, then it is similar to possessing a novelty item.

As far as the artwork goes--though I don't trophy bait myself, I would think it would be pretty safe for the reasons stated above--plus, since the lad is going to be misrepresenting himself from the start, what is he going to do anyway? Go to the police and try to charge you with not paying his fictional character? If he is scamming under the name George Washington and his name is really Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Franklin can't exactly go to the police and press charges because George Washington wasn't paid--if so he would have to confess to the whole George Washington scam!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Maybe you can explain a little more just what your friend thinks is illegal. It sounds like you are basically straight baiting the lad to waste his time and there is nothing illegal about that.

It seems many are telling you cash baiting is illegal, which it is but you have not indicated you are doing that nor have you indicated you will be sending of dog feces. I also don't see any mention about receiving stolen checks from him either, so just what is it that your friend things is illegal?

We will be able to give you the proper advice if we know all the facts at hand.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Someone compared baiting to a role-playing game. You are playing the victim, and the lad is playing the barrister/dying widow/orphan/banker/whatever. The only difference is that the lad doesn't know *you're* playing a part. Wink

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