Important: Maybe we ought to be carefull with trophies.

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Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:33 pm

Just a thought, I just liked to discuss it. This came to mind after someone brought my attention to the Church of Golden Warmth trophies.

Hunting for trophies is good, I think we all agree on that. We waste time of our mugus, and that is good. If we get them to hold up a sign and take a picture, great work. If they pay some poor fellow to hold up that sign and get a picture taken, even better as the mugu wastes money for us and the poor guy gets a few bucks very easily, all good.

However, I feel we have to draw a line somewhere. The Church of Golden Warmth trophies, (for the ones that haven't seen them) features a person getting pissed on by two other persons.

We assumed before that the people in the picture got payed to do this, which would be nice for them and all, but did you guys think about the possibility that the 'models' in the picture actually could be threathened as well?

That's why I feel we should draw a line. In my opinion, chances are too high that for the really emberacing trophies, the people in the picture got threathened to do this rather then payed.

I post this to discuss this with you all, and get different points of view as well. Please take the time to give your vision on this, include a view arguments and I hope to come to a conclusion with this topic.
Thank you all for your attention.

Edit: Maybe to keep the conversation easy, let's refer to the 'over-the-line-trophy's' as extreme-trophy's, will keep it easier for all of us to write and read.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:42 pm

I think you have a valid point.

I suspect you will get some "the ends justify the means" arguments but yes, i agree, where there is a change of some innocent getting affected, then I would think twice and probably not do it.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:46 pm

The trouble is, you're not taking a piss (no pun intended) at the real forces behind it. The big kahuna's behind all this are not affected at all by this type of trophy.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:49 pm

A common theme from some of the very experienced baiters - trophys are not the goal - wasting the time and effort of the people in the whole 419 process is the goal...

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:55 pm

I'm happy to see that this is going well so far, but since this is going to be a hot topic I just wanted to let you all know the first signs of arguing or flaming that occur, this thread will be deleted. Thanks. Smile

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:04 pm

First, NOT to detract from any of the trophies gathered here. Not trying to bring down anyone's hard work.

Trophies are little motivators for me, something to keep my interest level up. I'm more invested in the mugu's time wasted, not necessarily in their humiliation.

There's been some discussion about whether the people featured in trophies are the true lads (not just the Golden Warmth ones.) Some of the backgrounds make us think that this is some poor local, promised a trivial sum of money to pose with a silly sign. More recently, it seems like the signs are now left blank, and filled in with whatever motto the baiter requires. ("Filled in" may mean MS Paint'ed, or just drawn on the photo with a pen.)

I'm finding faxed documents satifying right now: they don't cost me a thing, but the lads are making international calls to send them. They're not as pretty as a Shiver trophy, but I think the tactics are always evolving and refining. 419eater is not unknown to some of the lads, the theory goes, and even the dimmest of bulbs will catch on eventually that loaf of bread + fish on head = I've been duped. I like the "porn movie" trophy, and basically, anything original that you can get the lads to waste time doing.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:05 pm

@frontline: Fair enough, that wasn't the intention of the post.. I just like to come to a conclusion with the group, I guess that should be possible Very Happy

Ontopic:

This example is far-fetched, but, worst case scenario, a mugu wants his victim to do an extreme-trophy, the victim refuses to and gets beaten up for it or even killed. Far-fetched, but I hope you all will agree that this possibility is there. I hope you all agree too, that this can not be our intention while hunting for trophies.

I do not want to blame people that have gotten extreme-trophy's in the past, and have no hard feelings towards the person that got those golden warmth trophies, because I realize that they probably haven't thought of this before, hence this topic.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:12 pm

hoohoonick - It takes a lot of courage to raise a potentially controversial issue like this. Hats off to you.

To me the bottom line is that if there is any doubt, don't. It's one thing to get a fish on someones head - it's another to cause serious abuse or distress to innocents.

I suspect that most people can decide this line for themselves, and I am sure that people will pipe up if they have any concerns....

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:13 pm

I must admit, you do raise a valid moral point, but with any luck baiting is very successful at wasting scammers money and time and stopping a LOT of others being hurt. There's always innocent casualties in war. We declared war on the scammers and have to accept this.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:35 pm

I concur wit mirakl that the purpose of making a simple economic law (benefits - (costs + trouble) > 0) fight the 419 fraud, is a good one.

But I disagree on his 'collateral damage' idea. You can decide to hunt for other types of trophies if you suspect what's going on.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:58 pm

I don't think we should start second guessing ourselves when it comes to wasting a mugu's time as we will probably never know the true circumstances under which they take photos.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:05 pm

One possible way around it - early on in the bait, tell him that you plan to travel to his country later and you will need a photo ID from him so you can recognise him at the airport.

When you have what appears to be an unfaked photo from him, you can then start demanding trophies. He will be less able to wriggle out of it or fake it, since these pics have to show the same person. Ok, it may just be one of his henchmen, but at least you're getting a legitimate target.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:08 pm

I personally think this is all a case of ifs & buts.
You could argue the following case:
An low-ranking mugu has his fake picture posted on 419eater. A higher-ranking mugu sacks him and beats him up. He is forced to steal and fight for his food.
I suppose you could argue that anything hurts anyone, but I think in the golden shower case, we will never know. I can't understand how the man keeps smiling?!!

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:09 pm

@Sacharissa:

That's a point a view(and I realize that it's not your point of view Sacharizza) that I didn't expect to get either, however, I did speak to mirakl in the chatbox (completely by coincidence by the way) meanwhile and got informed that he/she didn't mean it this way, but maybe that point of view needs to be discussed anyway.

I can imagine the slightly different point of view: "if some innocent people get damaged in the process of us actually effectively stopping a scammer from ever doing it again, so be it". I do not agree to that one, but I can imagine people feeling that way, and in my opinion that is a 'personal taste' thing which can't effectively be discussed.

However, it will not be neccesary to have people get hurt, as long as we stick to the methods we currently use, and before we go hunting for trophies, consider whether the throphy is over the line or not.
(Where to draw this line is very personal of course, and of course the statement "when in doubt, don't do it" counts here, but the forum also has a nice possibility of posting polls.)

Feel free to prove me wrong on any of this by the way, I'm open for any point of view.

@charlie fake: That's a good solution as well. The only little 'loophole' I can find for them in that case is photoshop, but A: we all know how bad mugu's are with photoshop, and B: way to far-fetched, so in a nutshell: Good idea. I don't see any reason why to ask for extreme-trophy's if you are absolutely 100% sure that it's the mugu himself or at least someone from the mugu's organisation that's going to be on the picture.

@Angus McOatupp:

I agree that it is a case of ifs & buts, but in my opinion not far-fetched enough to just ignore.

The case you just gave as an example could indeed be discussed in a different topic, however, I'm not starting it due to my point of view on your example, which I will not put forward here as it would go too much offtopic. No offense of course, but if you(or anyone) would like to discuss that example, feel free to start a topic or PM me if you wish to discuss it with me.

Indeed, in the golden shower case, we will never know. I looked at the pictures one more time today, and I see a smile on his mouth, but fear in his eyes. For all we know, someone's pointing a gun at him. I do not exclude the possibility that I am seeing things just because I have this point of view which is put forward by means of this topic, and other then that, this topic is not about whether the guys on the golden shower pics were payed or threatened, that was just an example.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:24 pm

Angus,

I agree that a lot of stuff posted here is a sream, but 419 fraud is not a laughing matter.

On anything you do, you must try to think of the possible consequences.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:43 pm

I suppose if the guys in the picture were threatened in any way to pose for these pics, they will know better than to hang around them in the future. They could possibly end up absolutely hating the higher-ups for making them do this, and turn it on them down the road.

I guess it may actually be a good thing for these lads to see the higher-ups for what they really are. ie; SCUM BASTARDS that will do anything to anyone for a chance of money.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:52 pm

I don't know if they don't see that. I think they do, but that there's little to do against them, as an individual. Just like the Sicilian mafia.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:57 pm

Hey! That's my signature! Razz

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:39 pm

Yeah! We must be baiting the same moron!

You have a pm.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:54 pm

I think it's a matter of perspective. If you consider the number of lives these bastards have ruined, you'd feel absolutely no compunction about going for the extreme trophies. If a mugu gets beaten up over it, hey it's his loss. Life in organized crime ain't easy, and if you can't take the heat you'd better get out.

This is all hypothetical anyway...we have no evidence that lads are being beaten up, and even if we did then that only means there's one less mugu we have to deal with.

Remember the lads have no morals at all. They will call another 419er a "fraudstar" with 100% conviction and paint themselves as the perfect angel. In fact some are so convinced of their innocence that it reminds me of the victims: if you want to believe badly enough, you will believe. They've deluded themselves into thinking that they are on the moral high ground, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. If it takes a beating to knock them from their self-created pedestal, then so be it.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:56 pm

Tritium

If it's a lad undergoing pain and suffering then Huzzah!

The problem is if it is someone totally unrelated to the whole thing being made to suffer...

I just won't subscribe to "The end justifies the means" - that would put me in the same camp as Hitler, Bush and Bliar...

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:05 pm

Hmm..

Indeed, we are not talking about mugu's being beaten up but people that are innocent and have nothing to do with it.

Whether or not mugu's deserve physical punishment is a whole different discussion - personally I am against all sorts of physical punishment/violence.

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:06 pm

I was just going throught he trophy room again, and I have to admit, there are some classics there. Truly amazing!

However, I do agree with hoohoonick regarding a fine line between a spoof and degradation. Some of the pics are humorous, maybe even a bit excessive. In no way do I condone their actions, but I feel every human being deserves some respect, no matter what they are or do. Certain degrading and humiliating conduct should be avoided considering there are always specific ground rules to any endeavour. The fact that someone would actually allow certain acts to be performed on their persons staggers the mind. What kind of motivation would generate that kind of behavior?

I guess what I am saying is that if someone is to perform such acts, maybe they should not be publicized in something so global as the 'WWW'. Or, if publicized, should be curtailed somewhat. Many have been labeled as "not work safe." I feel if they are not safe for work, they are not really safe for publishing on a public forum.

Since this is all based on morals, I am sure my opinion will differ from most. Wink

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:58 pm

This is a really interesting thread and raises some very good thinking issues
Kudos to hoohoonick for starting it...

On the subject of involving innocents in extreme (or any other poses)... yes, while I agree that is a likely possibility, it is, I feel, more than likely to be a member of the same clan... consider:
If an innocent is asked/coerced into posing for a pic, there is a possibility that the innocent will want to know why the pic is needed..
So.. the innocent finds out about scamming and as a result starts scamming him/herself.. is this what the mugu wants; more competition?
We know that they sometimes swop 'lawyers' - so why not pose in each others pics?

And on the earlier (valid) point of paying someone to pose.. it is more than likely that the mugu arranging the pic has offered a share of the spoils of the scam to that 'someone' in the pic
When the spoils do not show up, what happens?
Hopefully the arranger will get a sound thrashing.. or at least, through being made to look a fool, will lose some 'street cred'
(and is relegated to using the cranky 166MHz wreck at the back of the cafe!)

Having looked at the urine pics myself, I agree that the eyes of the 'central figure' do look a little distant... but could the stare also be a result of the fact that he's drunk?
After all.. would you pose like that sober? Smile

Of course there is another possibility and that is that the guy is another 'shamed' mugu (having previously been baited?) and that this is some kind of 'punishment'.....
....who knows how their minds work (if they, in fact, HAVE minds!)

Perhaps we should consider 'vetting' extremes before posting them in open forums, or maybe we can 'lock' them by a password only available by pm from the author - that would ensure that only members here could see them...

As to trophies in general... I think that one of the reasons we bait is to get a valued trophy at the end of it... We want to waste their time and a pic does this best of all... and if it is something we can laugh at - so much the better...!

Look at the responses to the urine pics - they all praise the pics as really good trophies, there's one or two guarded comments, true.. but generally they are all positive.....

There's my four penn'orth...

A. Cool

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 17 Jul 2004 Posts: 17

The wheel of karma is always perfectly in balance.

If the "pissee" was coerced into the photo, he will harbor resentment and work against those who coerced him in the future. You can bet he and his friends and family will do what they can to oppose the mugu scammers in the future. I find the idea that he was coerced extremely improbable. However, what goes around comes around! Payback's a bitch!

If he was complicit, then he got what he deserved. Piss on 'em!

If he was paid, (the most likely scenario) then obviously he felt that the utility of the cash he was paid more than offset the disgust and humiliation he had to endure, and the mugu who paid him is out the necessary cash in the process.

I think it's a win-win situation personally. I have no pity for any involved unless there was coercion.

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