Zero Tolerence for Scammers

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Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 9

Hi Everyone,

I stumbled onto your site via an online news article. At first I was amused by all your antics. However, after reading the article about the ethics of scambaiting, I was horrified to discover that these internet scams were occurring in my own country - not just Nigeria as I had assumed.

I agreed with a lot of what was said in the ethics article, from the point of view of both the baiters and the scammers. Yes, it is true that Africans are not very fond of the West. Let's face it, from what we see on TV, life looks great there and it's not all that great here. This might not be true, but our vision of the West is controlled by the media (movies, mostly), so we believe in the American dream. In fact, those of us with a decent education often try to move to Australia or the UK as soon as possible. Those of us left behind have ended up with a raw deal. We have poverty, you have luxury, so why not spread the wealth around?

And yes, first world countries have abused those of us living in the third world. In fact, I'd argue that third world countries are still being abused for cheap resources. Even though it is mainly the fault of government and big corporations, and I'm sure that many of your share in my disgust that it still occurs today, it's a lot easier to blame the West collectively (meaning even Joe Soap, the average American tourist that could be ripped off). It's always easier to blame others instead of accepting the responsibility for change, is it not?

In Africa, crime and corruption are normal. My country has a terribly high crime rate. A lot of it is violent, and we live in fear with our guard dogs and high walls. While scammers may be hurting people in other countries, us Africans are victims of numerous crimes by our own people in our own homes. I don't know a single person who has never been a victim. And yet, we are forced to take part in it. Do you know that it is impossible to get a driver's license without bribing your testing officer? If I want to get a license, I need to resort to corruption. I'm almost forced to become a criminal. (I say "almost" because I still ultimately make the decision that the payoff is worth it.) It's like we're socialized into becoming criminals.

However, us honest citizens are frustrated by it. We hate the crime and we hate corruption. That's why many leave. Personally, I am optimistic that we can turn things around. I love my country, and I won't leave. I want to help build it into something better. In order to do that, though, crime and corruption need to be very seriously addressed. I believe that is what you are doing, and I thank you for that.

Old Coaster pointed out that Nigerians admire those who make money without working. I think a lot of people have that dream, otherwise get-rich-schemes wouldn't work. Heck, I'd even like to make money with very little work. Does this make me a bad person? No, I don't think so. I think it makes me pretty normal. However, I do not resort to criminal activity to achieve this. At the moment, I am forced to hold down a job I don't particularly enjoy until I've found a way to earn money doing what I love.

Adult criminals deserve no sympathy. Unfortunately, one reaches an age where accountability needs to take place, regardless of upbringing and social climate. I know that if I am caught stealing, I will go to jail. I can cry about it, blame my circumstances, blame the West, blame anything I like, but as an adult I need to face the consequences of my actions. Scammers are no different. They could do a lot worse than to fall for your baiting. They could end up in one of our overcrowded prisons to be gang raped and physically assaulted. Those who resort to physically harming or killing their victims actually deserve nothing less.

I'm sorry to ramble on like this. I just thought that I'd give you something to reference if you're ever faced with the "poor, abused Africa" argument again. There are many honest people living in Africa, and we love our country but also hate the crime. Since even our own law enforcement is corrupt, it's great to see that there are individuals taking matters into their own hands. Ironically, it's mainly Westerner's who are baiters - so the West is helping us fight crime. I applaud you all in your efforts. Don't allow anyone to try talk you out of this. Adopt a zero tolerance policy. Thanks to you (and not our local law enforcement) scammers are finally getting what they deserve.

Baiting Guru Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Posts: 3123

Thanks for an interesting post. It's always good to hear that citizens such as yourself are TRYING to turn your country around, and share in our disgust towards these criminals.

As a firm believer in corporal punishment, I love this part of your post:

Quote:

be gang raped and physically assaulted. Those who resort to physically harming or killing their victims actually deserve nothing less.

Thank you for this.

I can't address every point of yours, because I agree with everything (unusual for me!)

Are you sticking around to help fight, or just to give helpful insight as someone in your position?

There is a long and complex history in humanity regarding finance mainly, and hatred towards the West. It is incomprehensible to me that both the Middle East and parts of Africa have an intense hatred of "us".

However, I do see your point when you mention it is easier to blame "everyone."

Don't DARE apologise for a good rant, it was a great read Smile

I fully believe there are many honest people in Africa, I'm sure more so than criminals. Unfortunately, our attention is always drawn to the negatives, no doubt a product of the media.

I don't think criminals will appreciate the notion of "the West fighting crime", they probably believe that we should keep our commercialised noses out of it.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:06 am

Wow African Princess... That was a very interesting article. It's a good point that there should be zero tolerance for scammers. It's only too bad that local Law Enforcement doesn't really take any action against them... If they would really take action against scammers they could probably put quite a quick stop it (especially with us organising meetings between scammers and LE all over the place..)

ETA: We're quite frustrated with local LE's not doing anything either... If they would, our signature-lines would be chuck full of badges Very Happy

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:46 am

Welcome to the house of scammer pain and thank you so much for that eloquent post. I do hope you will stick around, we can always use the extra help. Smile

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:00 pm

Hi African Princess, its good to have you on board and hope you will be staying and as has already been said, a very interesting read. Welcome

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

Thanks for your thoughts AP. And welcome to Eater.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:52 pm

Quote:

Ironically, it's mainly Westerner's who are baiters - so the West is helping us fight crime.

There's only so much we can do -- until there is a change in the local attitudes prevalent in some countries which glorify scammers, we are always going to be fighting an uphill battle.

The Western world developed this wonderful tool called the Internet and made it freely available worldwide, partly in the hope it would foster cooperation between people, but now we find it is being gleefully abused as a means to steal money from us.

I think it is entirely possible in future that 'zero tolerance' will go further than our small baiting efforts and result in blanket quarantining of some countries from many Internet services.

Technically, it's quite simple, though I suppose then we'd all be out of a hobby..... Confused

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:55 pm

Welcome to Eater African Princess. That was a insitefull andvery well written post. I look forward to seeing you around the boards more. Very Happy

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:10 pm

Welcome and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Smile

As has already been said, we would love for you to stick around and join our efforts if you so choose.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:45 pm

Very interesting post indeed!
It's always great to get the point of view from the inside.
Hope you'll stick around as was already said Wink

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:20 pm

Hi AP,

I think we all appreciate your taking the effort to post that up, thank you.

Please stick around, if not to bait, then to help us with local knowledge and understanding. You've no idea how helpful that would be!

MBL Smile

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:01 pm

Allow me to add my voice to the crowd offering our appreciation for your incredibly articulate and eloquent post. We do get the occasional person who comes in here and castigates us for what we do, often using the very same reasons that you stated to justify what we do! It's refreshing to hear from someone who has given such deep thought to this topic, which is admittedly complex, and has come out on the side of "zero tolerance for criminals".

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:39 pm

Thanks for a very informative article. I've always been all for intensive and destructive baiting of scammers, and enough cooperation and imaginative mind-hacking will make the internet a very hostile place for them. More safaris! More arrests! More skull-and-crossbones!

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:54 am

Welcome to Eater, African Princess!

Thank you for a very lovely first post. It is so nice to have someone new come to see us and state their views so eloquently. As the rest have stated, I surely hope you come back and visit us again. We would love to have you join us in any way you feel comfortable. You would be a real asset here in our online fight against 419 crime!

Hope to see you around the fora! Very Happy

419Eater is my life Joined: 31 Mar 2009 Posts: 327

Welcome, African Princess!

There is nothing I can say that the others haven't said already. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, and I hope you decide to stick around for a while! Very Happy

Jasper

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:54 am

Welcome, African Princess!

Nice read! Wink

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 9

Oops. I posted my very long post twice. It's definitely not worth reading twice in succession! Razz

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 9

Wow. Thanks for the positive response Smile

Don't ever take the anti-West thing personally. As I've said, a lot of Africans really want to move to first world countries and will do so if given the opportunity. It's just a poor excuse to justify whatever is going wrong. Having said that, I am personally VERY against the treatment Africa receives from first world countries. The media tends to only portray the bad news, giving people an inaccurate representation of our countries. Also, large corporations and industries make use of a modern sort of colonialism to take advantage of our resources and cheap labour. Then they have "token" charities to pretend they are "giving back" when they mostly are not.

However, it would be pointless and ineffective to blame individuals personally. I don't hate American people. A good friend of mine, in fact, is American by birth. What I hate, is capitalization and exploitation. The strong often tend to suppress the weak - this is not unique to the situation in Africa. It happens even now in first world countries, and it has happened frequently in your histories. I suppose that for many uneducated Africans, blaming the West collectively is easier because they don't have the information to draw the conclusions I have come to. But you will never meet those people on the internet. In fact, if you ever find yourself in a rural African area where these people live, they will most likely look at you as a god of sorts. Sad, but true.

What you encounter mostly is nothing more than excuses for crime. I personally hate excuses. Where is the sense of personal responsibility? In my opinion, until we stop blaming the first world for our problems and start becoming accountable for the decisions we are making, the situation here is unlikely to improve. We've been free to make our own decisions for a long time now, and what have we been doing with that freedom?

I'm not so sure that it is true that our culture glorifies scammers any more than yours does. Obviously, in criminal circles, crime is glorified. That must be true across the globe. Mainly, cultural codes are created to maintain order. Order is necessary for any civilization to thrive. A lack of order hurts the community more than anyone else. If you ever meet people living in politically unstable areas, you will not easily find happiness.

Personally, I think that the Internet is one of the greatest tools ever given to Africans (and the world). Sure, it may be misused in horrible ways, as so many things are, but for many countries it was their first taste of real democracy. In Zimbabwe, for example, their dictatorial President tried to control the country's use of the Internet - impossible of course. While local journalists were being manipulated or jailed due to noncompliance and other aspects of the media were carefully controlled, the Internet allowed citizens the freedom to view news reports as they were being published by other countries were journalists were not restricted. Compare that to the situation in Germany during the Second World War.

I'm impressed that some of your efforts have led to arrests. I don't think you realize how difficult that is to accomplish. For one thing, local law enforcement is not without it's share of corruption. For another, the legal system is flawed. I am of the opinion that serious crime stems from petty crimes that were never punished. For example, I have two friends that tried stealing and were caught. Luckily, the prison experience made them quickly decide that the life of crime might not be for them after all. Had this not happened, they might've gone on to more and more serious crimes, until the life of crime would be normal for them. Therefore, I think that the arrests you assist in might be helping to curb a tiny percentage of criminal activity. This may seem small, but I think it's a very big deal.

Even where arrests haven't been made, I'm sure that you have at least made the criminals more wary of legitimate opportunities. It may be an uphill battle, but so was the fight for woman's rights at one time, was it not? Persistence pays off.

Looking through your trophy room and the letters, I must say that although the exchanges are amusing, they are also very sad. It breaks my heart that these people could've chosen differently and become positive role models for their communities instead. They are so desperate that they will do the silliest things for you. I suppose that is why some people might consider this course of action on your part to be mean or cruel. You get their hopes up and use their desperation against them. Yet, despite my sadness on their part, this is exactly what they do to other unsuspecting victims. It really plays out as dramatic irony - and I wonder how many realize that their backlash of anger at such a betrayal is exactly what their other victims must go through because of their scam. At the very least, they haven't been swindled out of large sums of money and ended up with crippling debt. In my opinion, it wouldn't be less than they'd deserve.

Whatever violent crime occurs on their part is certainly unforgivable. I couldn't believe that one man had been murdered, mutilated, and burned to death when he finally arrived with the money. Sadly, I wonder if these criminals will ever be caught? With the help of 419 Eater, I still have hope. People like this deserve no mercy. You remind me of superheros, exacting justice when the law has failed.

I'm sorry again. I didn't mean for this to get long and political. I just care very deeply about my country and about the issue of crime. From your work with scammers, I'm sure that you'e noticed that African's tend to go on a bit at times. Wink

As for your invitation to join you, I must admit that I am tempted. I got a UK lottery scam mail, which is how I ended up here. I googled "UK lottery scam" and ended up on the lottery website (where they apparently even got an email telling them they'd won), which had a link to an online article, which had a link to this site. I'll definitely read up more on this site before deciding how best to proceed...

Thanks again, everyone!

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:46 am

And that's another high quality post. As I actually have to agree with you on almost every point there I don't have much to write in this post, but I wanted to let you know I thought it a good read once again anyway.

About the western companies profiting of your resources and cheap labour, these companies are actually forced to do so as long as only one of their competitors does so. If they don't their product-price would be so much higher that that of the one competitor that does profit of the cheap labour that they'd lose most of their customers to the competition. (This does not say I agree with profiting of the cheap labour, it's merely why I think they all do... I might also be plain wrong, my economic knowledge is not that good).

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 9

That's quite true. In fact, I personally only ever buy locally made stuff. It's a very good habit to get into. Firstly, it helps our economy. Secondly, I know that the stuff imported from China and South America can only be cheaper if necessary corners were cut. I might spend more, but I prefer to award decent companies with my business. Somewhere, someone had to pay in some way for cheap products to become available.

I thought you might be interested to know that I do online essay reviewing for an American company. Basically, students upload their papers, and I download them and suggest corrections before uploading them again. Apparently, the online company wants to make essay reviewing a 24 hour thing, so they've recruited tutors in countries that are awake while the United States is sleeping. Just thought you might like to know that some people in Africa are helping out those in America as well. It's not just you guys helping us. Wink

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:36 am

@AP.

It seems like you're trying to make some sort of apology or excuse for Africa.
You don't need to. Wink

Most baiters are well aware that scammers are only a small minority of the population of Africa. It would be ridiculous to condemn every inhabitant of the continent because of the actions of a few. Sure, there are times that we condemn the authorities over there for setting up systems where corruption can flourish, but at the end of the day, every individual is responsible for his own actions. Crime can't help but reflect back on the society it comes from but at the same time, one should never forget that everyone has the choice to walk the line or stray from it. The African people are no different to anyone else on Earth - they know what is wrong and they know what is right.

Criminals are criminals. They aren't confined to one location on the planet. Everywhere you walk on this planet you'll come across some guy, somewhere trying to screw over his fellow man.
And those criminals will also use any means available to justify their crimes and will never take resposibility for their own actions. Claims from scammers that they do what they do because of the West's history with Africa is water off a duck's back. My own experience is that those who use that means of justification, don't even believe it themselves. They just clutch at staws to give themselves some sort of legitimacy.

Baiters don't have a beef with Africans or Africa. They just have a beef with scammers. Wink

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:50 am

@Master of Puppets

Master of Puppets wrote:

About the western companies profiting of your resources and cheap labour, these companies are actually forced to do so as long as only one of their competitors does so. If they don't their product-price would be so much higher that that of the one competitor that does profit of the cheap labour that they'd lose most of their customers to the competition.

This is called "practical constraint" and IMHO is another excellent way to avoid taking responsibility for ones own actions. Its not "companies" that pullute the world und exploit unfortunate countries. Its "individuals" e.g. the people in the lead.

Unfortunatly many impudent actions are fully legal. And I observe a lot of ripp-off these days, when companies try to skim customers without offering them any value in return. So I opt for a paradigm change: less profit, more responsibility.

@African Princess
I (mostly) agree with all that is said in this thread. Very excellent 1st post African Princess Thumbs up

Looking forwards to read more from you. Btw, do you intend to start your baiting? All the help you need - you'll find it here. And baiting helps a lot ... not only bringing scammes to justice but sometimes we even succeed in make a difference for real victims. And you lern how the criminals tick inside their brains.

Last but not least, an African baiter would be a very substancial help for the baiting community Very Happy

Edit:
@Slightlyoutofit

Slightlyoutofit wrote:

Baiters don't have a beef with Africans or Africa. They just have a beef with scammers. Wink

I fully agree on this one. The scammers that I loathe most are those based in my own country (Germany) and my own ethnic backgound (Caucasian). Probably this is due to the fact, that they successfully destroy the illusion, that my part of the world is in any regards better (or at least better off) than the rest of the world Rolling Eyes

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:14 pm

^^You would´t have throught this realistically, would you? Smile

I´ve had some 5 lads based in Germany so far, doing exactly the same NOK and ebay thingies. In fact, I envy you a lot for your HH-Hannover safari Smile

By now my focus has turned much into Eastern Eurrope, however.

Thanks for your insightful posts, African Princess! Please do carry on educating us this way. I find myself a lot reading on travelling blogs or the Nairaland forum and also geography websites, and before you, as far as I can tell, the best series of posts about African culture has been made by dionbouton, they are now in the Eater University Forum in the "West Africa 101"-thread.

His knowledge, as he admitted himself, was some 3 years old by the time of his posts (2008). Always interested to find out more Very Happy

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:39 pm

African Princess wrote:

They are so desperate that they will do the silliest things for you.

I'm not convinced that's the case. Certainly there are very many poor and desperate people in Africa, but they aren't the ones spending hours a day in Internet cafes.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 9

Mr Tambourine Man wrote:

I'm not convinced that's the case. Certainly there are very many poor and desperate people in Africa, but they aren't the ones spending hours a day in Internet cafes.

Well, you would understand the mind of a scammer better than me. Until two days ago, I didn't even know this site existed. They just seem desperate from what I read in your archives.

e6ffdyr0 wrote:

I fully agree on this one. The scammers that I loathe most are those based in my own country (Germany) and my own ethnic backgound (Caucasian). Probably this is due to the fact, that they successfully destroy the illusion, that my part of the world is in any regards better (or at least better off) than the rest of the world Rolling Eyes

I really sympathise with this as well. When I first found out about that man who was murdered in my country when the scammers got hold of him, I wanted to believe that it was the Nigerians here who had done it. But the truth is that our crime is perpetuated by locals and immigrants alike. It's quite likely that the murder was committed by locals. It's a pity you can't target scammers in a specific country because I'd like to clean up mine.

Anyway, I didn't mean to come off preachy or defensive in my posts. Personally, I am all for the fight against crime. Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to stop complaining about it and start doing something about it! Thanks for the inspiration Smile

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