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GnarlySpoof
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 298
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

While I've entertained the idea of joining this internet sport, it has raised some serious ethical questions....and yes, I've read the sticky. I'm not here to attack people, I'm here to make people think about their actions.

While some of the baiting threads are quite harmless I've read a few that just go to far. Moreover the baiter's involved are often hailed as heroes within the community often proudly collecting "trophies" at the expense of another conscious living, breathing entity who (regardless of the suffering he/she creates) is prone to the same emotional turmoil as any other living being.

Please I'm not condoning scamming at all, I'm well aware of the suffering it creates and I'm well aware of the types of people that scammers are. I know these people are criminals.

Causing suffering is causing suffering (period). Regardless of whether it's a widow a child or a scammer. One cannot justify creating misery just because those we do it to "did it first". What, are we like children pointing fingers? ("but he hit me first"). Ask yourself as a human being (with immense power and capability) - what do you wish to create in the minds of your fellow man? Do you wish to breed anger, intolerance, suffering and humiliation or peace, tolerance and goodwill?

As long as we live in a world ruled by "an eye for an eye", the world will never become the place we would like it to be. We will sow what we reap.

I know alot of baiters think they're doing a good deed being moral vigilantes and all, and perhaps in some cases this is true but when it becomes a "sport" at the expense of another human being then it has gone too far. Having said that I think that diverting the attention of a scammer from a real victim is certainly a worthy cause. We should take pity on scammers because they have not realized that true fulfillment comes from making headway in life through self-betterment and through an appreciation of each an every moment spent with one's loved ones. For them, a successful "hit" is what they live for, like a heroin addict, trapped in a vicious cycle, convinced that their next "hit" is their way out of misery or in the case of well-to do scammers that their wealth will give them joy when in fact the joy of life surrounds us at every moment - we're just too blind to acknowledge it (whether it's a sunset or the smell of a rose.)

And so too I suspect some baiters live for the thrill of their next hit.....

...and if that statement pisses you off it's only because there's some truth to it - I've hit a nerve.

So ask yourself, as an immensely powerful being, - what do you wish to create? If you spent all the time, effort and money that goes into baiting into creating peace, love and tolerance, would you need that next "hit" (trophy or safari) or would you choose to create a lasting emotional satisfaction that you have caused a positive change in the lives of others? The former will create an endless cycle of emotional ups and downs while the latter will create a long-lasting emotional fulfillment.

Technically, baiting as a platform is morally "void" - I have no issue with it as a tool - in fact I think it's has great potential for transformation. But those that use it have an immense responsibility. The challenge lies in how to creatively use it to change peoples lives for the better. I realize that this is an incredibly difficult task and requires some real creative thinking and probably a good understanding of psychology or at least a good EQ. I'm sure many baiters have actually achieved this and stick to this as their moral motivation for each and every action they take but I think there are some that need to seriously look at their actions and ask themselves the question are they just in it for their next "hit" under the guise of moral vigilantism?

Please I'm not here to point fingers and make accusations or get into and argument - this will achieve little. My plea is that those who engage in baiting do so with continued moral introspection and understand the great responsibility that they have undertaken, otherwise regardless of what one might hide behind to validate one's moral highground one is still engaging in creating suffering - an activity that is no better than that undertaken by scammers themselves. I'm sure that many baiters out there have the creative capacity and intelligence to create some real positive change.

As a wise Frederick Nietzsche once said:

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster yourself.."
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GSN_fan
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Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

All right, I will bait "to change people" if you tell me how that is possible.

Baiting is basically annoying the heck out of a scammer because they stole money. Getting a trophy means that they took the time that they could scamming to make some art for a baiter. Making them go on safari is the same thing. It could be considered a mild form of bringing them to justice.

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dadeciple
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Now lets join hands and remember the old saying...


"puff puff pass"
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BluthBanana
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Joined: 16 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thank you for stopping by, modernPrimitive. I really hope you'll stick around and engage us in a dialogue and not start an ethics thread and run. Wink

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? As GSN_fan said, how should we be approaching this? While our approach does cause lads to suffer, it also potentially alleviates the suffering of multiple victims. The lad I have on a safari right now has given us every reason to believe he was fairly successful until we came along. Now he doesn't have time to communicate with any of his other mugus except me (and I know this for a fact because another baiter has secured himself as the lad's boss, so he kindly passed along the information of some willing mugus which are played by other baiters Laughing). So... by my reckoning the karma scales are leaning in the direction of the baiters (suffering caused vs. suffering averted).

Please let us know how we can do this to change these people, though. As far as I know a lad is always a lad. What can we possibly say to make them change? If it were that easy we would surely be doing this.

Speaking of change, maybe by the time all is said and done we can get you to pick up a couple lads of your own! Wink

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Ima Baeder
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi and Welcome here.

modernPrimitive wrote:
I'm here to make people think about their actions.


It's a bit presumptuous of you to assume we haven't. It may surprise you to find that we've had these discussions quite regularly and that most baiters have a pretty thorough read of their own moral compass.

Quote:
One cannot justify creating misery just because those we do it to "did it first". What, are we like children pointing fingers? ("but he hit me first"). Ask yourself as a human being (with immense power and capability) - what do you wish to create in the minds of your fellow man? Do you wish to breed anger, intolerance, suffering and humiliation or peace, tolerance and goodwill?


I find that working with victims on a daily basis at our sister site, ScamWarners, does a great job toward achieving this. It is the ultimate in good will.

Quote:
As long as we live in a world ruled by "an eye for an eye", the world will never become the place we would like it to be. We will sow what we reap.


There is no eye for an eye. Have you really read the victim's stories?

http://www.scam-info-links.info/scam_victim_news.html

I have yet to see a baiter do anything like this to a scammer.

Quote:
Having said that I think that diverting the attention of a scammer from a real victim is certainly a worthy cause.


This is the whole point of our website.

Quote:
We should take pity on scammers because they have not realized that true fulfillment comes from making headway in life through self-betterment and through an appreciation of each an every moment spent with one's loved ones. For them, a successful "hit" is what they live for, like a heroin addict, trapped in a vicious cycle, convinced that their next "hit" is their way out of misery or in the case of well-to do scammers that their wealth will give them joy when in fact the joy of life surrounds us at every moment - we're just too blind to acknowledge it (whether it's a sunset or the smell of a rose.)


Our pity won't change a thing. Creating awareness of the scams so that people can protect themselves will. Shutting down the scammer's fake website's will. Distracting the scammers from their real targets will.


Quote:
...and if that statement pisses you off it's only because there's some truth to it - I've hit a nerve.


Or perhaps it could piss us off because it's untrue and from someone who may not have nearly as much knowledge or experience as we do on this subject.

Quote:
So ask yourself, as an immensely powerful being, - what do you wish to create? If you spent all the time, effort and money that goes into baiting into creating peace, love and tolerance, would you need that next "hit" (trophy or safari) or would you choose to create a lasting emotional satisfaction that you have caused a positive change in the lives of others? The former will create an endless cycle of emotional ups and downs while the latter will create a long-lasting emotional fulfillment.


You seem to be lumping us all under one umbrella when it comes to motive for what we do. I can assure you, we're individuals.

Quote:
My plea is that those who engage in baiting do so with continued moral introspection and understand the great responsibility that they have undertaken,


Yep, done already, thanks.

By the way, I'm not a vigilante.

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Last edited by Ima Baeder on Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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callum
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

modernPrimitive wrote:
While some of the baiting threads are quite harmless I've read a few that just go to far. Moreover the baiter's involved are often hailed as heroes within the community often proudly collecting "trophies" at the expense of another conscious living, breathing entity who (regardless of the suffering he/she creates) is prone to the same emotional turmoil as any other living being.

You are cordially invited to follow the links in my signature, particularly the last one and be sure to read the associated news article.

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Last edited by callum on Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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Cachuma
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Rolling Eyes Here we go again.

OP, it would appear that you believe you are presenting us immoral baiters with entirely new concepts, ideas, and food for thought.

Allow me to be among the first to burst your bubble. There is not a single thought in your post that hasn't been brought forth, articulated, debated, disputed, delineated, defended, discussed, and deliberated innumerable times in the all the years that Eater has been in existence. There is not a single original thought in your post. And I can assure you that nothing in your post will change what any of us baiters feel, or do.

If the things that you read in here disturb you on a such a profound moral level, then I urge you to stay away and not read them.

Those of us who do this, do so for any number of reasons. Some of us, such as myself, have friends or relatives who have had their lives ruined by 419 scammers. Sadly, the chances of a 419 scammer receiving ANY kind of justice, much less anything done to reduce their opportunities for stealing from people and ruining lives, is so infinitesimal as to be virtually non-existent. This is pretty much the ONLY justice these criminals receive. Believe me, if I thought there was any chance at all for any type of official law enforcement actions to be taken against these criminals, or any measures taken by any organization to reduce 419 crime, I wouldn't feel compelled to do what I do.

But there isn't. Those of us have done this for a while are well aware that we, and the things we do to scammers, are pretty much the only game in town in terms of justice, not to mention crime reduction.

The vast majority of what we do is designed solely for crime reduction. We suck up their time, their resources, and their money, limiting their opportunities to go after real victims. Some baiters take it a step further and do things to not only suck up their time and resources, but to demoralize them so that they might actually think twice before they engage in such criminal activities again. We also work hard at de-educating them so that their ongoing attempts at scamming will be less effective.

Does this cause suffering? You bet. Do I feel bad about that? Not in the slightest. Every single ounce of suffering that I personally have caused a lad came as a direct result of criminal activities that he pursued that, had they been successful, would have inflicted immeasurable suffering on others. I simply turned the tables on him.

Is there an element of vengeance? I would be lying if I said there wasn't. I have written in here before about my relative who was taken for $25,000. The suffering caused by that crime in my own family was devastating. So every time I do something that either takes a lad's time away from hurting another family like that, or uses up his resources so he can't be using them to hurt others, or is fooled into doing things that ultimately cause him humiliation, anger or demoralization, that is a victory. That means that many fewer people will have to suffer like my family did.

Many of us, myself included, feel an obligation to do this for one main reason: because we CAN. We took the time to learn how to do it, and to do it effectively. It was not an easy education - it took me many months to learn how to bait effectively. I took a long sabbatical from it, but then came back because I continued to read about the increase of 419 crime, and the lack of any type of legal, governmental, or institutional activities to either reduce crime, or punish the criminals. I am one of the few people on the PLANET who are doing something about it. Because I know how to do it, by NOT doing it, I am allowing other victims to be harmed.

If this holds no interest to you, then I strongly suggest that you just stay away. But please do not come in here and try to discuss a topic which you clearly do not understand from all perspectives.

Come back when you've had a relative lose his or her life savings to a scammer, when you might be able to actually HAVE some perspective. In the meantime, you probably won't get a lot of action in this thread because most baiters just roll their eyes at the ubiquitous ethics threads, and the uneducated, uninformed bleeding hearts who start them.


Editing to add: I see a number of my compatriots were posting at the same time as me. Smile

One final thought I want to put out there to the OP: What do you think causes the most "suffering" among the lads we bait? I'll tell you what it is:

It's their realization that they were unsuccessful in their effort to steal money from an innocent victim. It's their discovery that all the "work" they were doing on what they thought was a real scam, all the efforts expended on someone they thought was an actual victim, didn't pay off in a huge payday that would have destroyed their victim. THAT'S what causes them suffering. If you feel even the slightest bit of compassion for THAT kind of suffering, then you might want to rethink your moral compass, because it appears to be a bit skewed.

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Last edited by Cachuma on Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nurse Nasty
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I've tried answering this question on many occasions. There is a deep moral undercurrent of revenge on this forum, which is natural considering the manipulation and tactics used by these scammers. We get to see the real face of scamming, which isn't pretty. It doesn't come wrapped in nice shiny paper with a big red ribbon. It's a dirty world filled with liars and immoral thieves who do not care who they hurt in the process. People think the only thing victims lose is their money. No they don't. They lose their self worth, respect and even their lives. Having seen the effects of someone losing everything first hand is what has hardened my resolve.

What we do to scammers is quite harmless compared to their methods of destruction. Please don't think we instantly dismiss your ethical standpoint. I can see your points clearly. To be honest, our innocuous methods of emails does cause scammers pause.

On occasion I do suffer a little bit of baiters guilt, and then I get another email from a lad who tells me that if I don't send him money that one of the seven sick children in his care will die. So if I don't send money it will be my fault?? Because I know it's rubbish I wave it off. I then wonder what someone who doesn't know it's a scam will feel. That makes me angry. Imagine feeling that if you don't send money that child will die. Then the scammer sends me pictures of sick children in hospital beds. A week later he sends me a email detailing how they had to bury the 7 year old child because I didn't send enough, or send money on time. This is where the pretty world of yours fails. We're fighting an immoral battle with unethical monsters.

You make specific mention of us creating hero's out of those who safari a lad. I heard something ridiculous the other day regarding the safari modality. I was told that we (eater) pay too much attention to safari baits and not enough attention to the serious straight and love baiters who don't get enough credit for what they do. WHAT?? Basic, realistic facts: Safaris are fun to read about. Doesn't mean a safari is somehow more important than any other bait. All I do is straight bait, and on occasion a lad presents me with an opportunity for me to humiliate him on the internet. To expose his face to the world and to make sure he feels so incredibly stupid, he can feel some of the pain he causes his victims.

There is some truth in what you say, and hitting a nerve is nothing to be offended about. I am not offended about anything you said. I do find most of your comments a little naive, but that's it. It's also your opinion and you're entitled. I wish there was some magical solution to your quandary. This is reality, and no government or law enforcement has the resources to stop this mutli-billion dollar theft, or the damage they cause to their victims. Scam baiting is one of many things we do here. It just happens to be those most entertaining method of education for these scams and amuses us to no end.

We do what we can with the tools we have. Am I immoral because of it? I am sure in the eyes of others I am. Do I care? Not particularly. As a wise Frederick Nietzsche once said:

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster yourself.."

Someone has to battle the monsters, and yes, I suppose I've had to become something of a monster myself. I draw the line at making lads do certain things, and that is a moral dilemma each and every baiter has to question within themselves.

If you do have some incredible solution to this issue, or some new tactic in dealing with these thieves, you have my undivided attention. Unfortunately in the real world these people don't care who they hurt in the process of collecting their money, or how they do it. We fight fire with fire, and an eye for an eye... and all that jazz. I want you to know that I'm comfortable with the frustration and humiliation I cause. It's a small justice compared to their damage.

I know you have a lot of posts to sift through here, and we hope you can absorb some of the information. As you can see, anyone who has a good question, will get a honest and good answer.

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manbiteslion
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Joined: 12 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Yay! A hugger! Wink

Joking aside, remember what you see here is the tip of the iceberg, the headline grabbers, the froth on the coffee if you will. Massive amounts of work goes on behind the scenes with people baiting to waste time and resources of scammers. If you look at the work many of us do over at scamwarners, you'll see it's a balanced approach.

I've seen scammers quite without remorse take peoples cancer treatment money, tell them to turn to prostitution and even prostitute their children to pay "fees". It's very hard to shed a tear when someone like that has to sit on a bus for 2 days because of a baiter.

I used to feel a lot more like you currently do, I admit, but the more of this I do, the more disgusted at just how low relatively wealthy and educated people will go to steal money instead of work for it. Have no illusions, this isn't a bunch of starving kids in mud huts, this is sheer greed, bullying, intimidation and big business. One of my current clients has pulled over $50k this month alone. This money goes into other shitty trades like setting up drug routes into Europe, human trafficking, enforced sex slavery, we're talking grade A class 1 bastards here. It's hard to believe until you see it for yourself, but frankly some guy with a watermelon on his head - who fucking cares?
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dr stephen williams
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I do it for crime reduction, but I have to admit, I love safari baiting, and I love trophies, and I love wasting their time, killing their web sitesm andif I can cause them to be humiliated and miserable, as well, then that is just icing on the cake.

I have thought through all the moral issues, and, within the parameters of my personal sense of what is appropriate, I have not seen anything here that is equal to the suffering and pain caused by scammers.

I had qualms about some of this stuff, too, but as time went on, and I learned more about the degree of evil these scummy pieces of shit will go to, I gradually came to the conclusion that anything we do here is justified.

I have baited as a cancer patient, a recently divorced doctor, a 12 year old girl, a heartbroken widow, a desperately lonely woman, a gay man, and not once did I ever hear "Don't send your chemo money. Save it. You need it to live." Instead I heard, over and over and over "When the money comes in, you can get the treatment you need."

It would be tempting to say "Get a clue" or "Fuck you for thinking you know better than people who have devoted years to fighting these scams", but, truthfully, I understand what you are saying. I felt some of this, too, but I have seen more of this than you, and I think absolutely any dangerous, degrading thing done here, even if it leads to death and dismemberment, is fine. They pursue this out of greed and believing they are stealing.

Do what you are comfortable with. There are thousnds of sites to be killed. Start a flag collection!

I hope you stick around. There is more work to be done than we can do.

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Simba
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

modernPrimitive wrote:
I'm here to make people think about their actions.


They already have.
Decided its fine.
Started baiting.

End of story.
Goodbye TTYN.

Rolling Eyes

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pilgrim
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OP, consider this. You learn of a burglar who steals from your neighbors, perhaps even from yourself. (Equate the burglar with the scammer.) You have an opportunity to steal his burglary tools. (Equate the tools with the scammer's fake banks, which he uses to scam his victims.) Wouldn't you steal those tools to protect your neighbors and yourself? I would. I either kill or point out for killing every fake scammer bank I find. Does it cause grief and even expense to the scammer? Sure. He probably still makes money scamming, but not as much. And we've saved at least a few elderly and gullible from being scammed. And if I don't get a bank to kill, at least I can console myself that I've wasted the scammer's time and money, thereby giving him less time and money to spend on legitimate victims.

I don't wish anyone ill. But if I have to choose between a victim or a scammer, I'll choose every time to protect the victim, even if it's at the scammer's expense.

Will this convince you? No... you probably hold your belief too strongly. But if you are willing to consider and try to understand opposing viewpoints, you may at least realize why we do what we do.

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callum
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:47 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Ooooooo, we have a new master of subtlety in Simba bow_down

Laughing

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Last edited by callum on Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nurse Nasty
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:47 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Everyone remember this thread so we can copy/paste our responses for the next one. Laughing

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Tigbitties
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@ modernPrimitive – Welcome to Eater.

Unfortunately the real suffering is caused to the victims of these scams who sometimes lose their entire life's savings to these low-life scum of earth. To say that baiting is 'an activity that is no better than that undertaken by scammers themselves' is wrong. Baiters do not target innocent vulnerable people with the intent of stealing every last penny they possess.

The vast majority of baiting involves keeping scammers busy with forms, phone calls, and an endless stream of banal emails. Are you saying that all forms of baiting are 'morally void'?

Ask yourself, in all honesty, would you really prefer the scammer who caused the tragedy in this news story to continue unimpeded and target another victim in the same way, or for one of us to engage with him and run him around in circles until he has neither the time nor resources to repeat his detestable crime.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:54 am Reply with quoteBack to top

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luckey
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:59 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi modernPrimative. Thanks for stopping by. I don't have much to add to what others have said, but I am wondering if sending someone to prison meets your definition of "going too far".

Most of us consider that to be the ultimate achievement for a baiter, and it is the usual consequence for habitual criminals in most countries. I've never been to prison, but I imagine it's far worse than anything you'll read here.

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Branwen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

modernPrimitive wrote:
I'm not here to attack people, I'm here to make people think about their actions.


And I'm not attacking back, believe me. I'm just responding.

Quote:
While some of the baiting threads are quite harmless I've read a few that just go to far.


I'm not sure whether or not there is a 'too far'. There are a few things I'm uncomfortable with (eg pretending to offer a Lad a reasonable job with accommodation in another country - just in case he believes it, and it gets his hopes up for a whole bright future - I've not read of anyone doing that, but I started along that track with one Lad once, and then felt bad about it, so dropped him and even closed that mail account I was using), but I don't have to do a single thing I am uncomfortable with. Other people might and other people might applaud them, but that is up to them. There are people all over this world doing things I am not comfortable with, and other people congratulating and upholding them. I cannot control other people. I can only decide what I will or will not do myself. Not just in baiting, but in life.

Quote:
Causing suffering is causing suffering (period). Regardless of whether it's a widow a child or a scammer. One cannot justify creating misery just because those we do it to "did it first".


Personally, I'm not out to cause any sort of suffering. Personally, I'm out to try and save some people from suffering at the hands of scammers. As long as they are writing to me, that is one real victim less they are writing to. The 'misery' they may feel is the misery of a failed scam. I also lock my doors at night and have a big dog. That may make some would-be burglars miserable too. I'm not bothered about that.

Quote:
Do you wish to breed anger, intolerance, suffering and humiliation or peace, tolerance and goodwill?


I'm not sure how I can breed peace and tolerance and goodwill in anybody, let alone a scammer. Seriously. I have no idea how to do that. I'm a nice polite person in real life, but that doesn't mean that everyone around me feels all peaceful and tolerant and overflowing with goodwill. In fact, I can think of lots of people I've met and been nice to who are still angry and intolerant, maybe even towards nice ole me.

Quote:
As long as we live in a world ruled by "an eye for an eye", the world will never become the place we would like it to be. We will sow what we reap.


I don't think the world we ever become the place I would like it to be. Not least because my own idea of an ideal world is definitely not somebody else's idea of an ideal world.

Do we sow what we reap? Reap what we sow? Maybe in childrearing. But not necessarily otherwise. All the major religions have to struggle with the question Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People? We also know that, in some cases, crime and manipulation and violence and hatred can definitely have a good pay-off for the perpetuator.

Quote:
We should take pity on scammers because they have not realized that true fulfillment comes from making headway in life through self-betterment and through an appreciation of each an every moment spent with one's loved ones.


That may be where your own true fulfillment comes from. Mine actually comes from other sources. Including saving even just one victim from a scammer. It is something that even I can do - and, being quite severely disabled, there isn't much I can do in life.

Quote:
For them, a successful "hit" is what they live for, like a heroin addict, trapped in a vicious cycle, convinced that their next "hit" is their way out of misery or in the case of well-to do scammers that their wealth will give them joy when in fact the joy of life surrounds us at every moment - we're just too blind to acknowledge it (whether it's a sunset or the smell of a rose.)


I don't think for one moment that the joy of life surrounds all people at all times. A lot of very bad and sad things happen in life. And then the last thing we care about is the sunset or the rose bush.

But even if sunsets and flower scents were the best things in the world, I don't think any scammer will give up scamming if we told them so. So I'd rather do my little bit to try and stop them causing the bad and the sad things happening to their victims. So that their victims do not end up too distraught to stop and smell the roses.

Quote:
And so too I suspect some baiters live for the thrill of their next hit.....


Maybe. Maybe not. But I am not the Official Conscience of Other People. I am only responsible for myself and my own ethics. I don't bother to mentally police other people. I just make sure I'm happy with what I am doing.

Quote:
So ask yourself, as an immensely powerful being, - what do you wish to create? If you spent all the time, effort and money that goes into baiting into creating peace, love and tolerance, would you need that next "hit" (trophy or safari) or would you choose to create a lasting emotional satisfaction that you have caused a positive change in the lives of others? The former will create an endless cycle of emotional ups and downs while the latter will create a long-lasting emotional fulfillment.


I'm not an immensely powerful being.

I have no idea how to create peace, love, and tolerance. I have very little sway or effect upon others.

I don't get an emotional 'hit' out of anything except taking up a Lad's time. I don't care whether it is a long long mail, or a special photograph, or whatever, as long as it took him as long as possible to do it.

I don't have any cycle of emotional ups and downs with baiting. Well, except for anger, when I witness how low they will stoop and the lengths they will go to to try and get money out of absolutely anybody.

My emotions, however, are neither centred around whether or not I 'cause positive change' in others. As I've already said, I doubt I have much effect on anyone. But, if I did, I wouldn't have any emotional feeling about it. I don't do pride and ego. And I don't need others to positively react to me in order for me to have a sense of fulfillment, either.

Quote:
Technically, baiting as a platform is morally "void" - I have no issue with it as a tool - in fact I think it's has great potential for transformation. But those that use it have an immense responsibility. The challenge lies in how to creatively use it to change peoples lives for the better. I realize that this is an incredibly difficult task and requires some real creative thinking and probably a good understanding of psychology or at least a good EQ.


That isn't a challenge that I'm taking up. I'm not creative, I don't know the first thing about psychology, I doubt if I have anything like a good EQ, and I hate difficult tasks anyway.

I'd rather just be me and do the little I can do, the best way I can do it. I want to distract scammers from real victims. I can do that. So that's what I'm doing.

That's what anyone can do. Whatever their motivation. Whatever their EQ, IQ, creativity level or background.

Anyone, absolutely anyone, can make a difference.

Quote:
My plea is that those who engage in baiting do so with continued moral introspection and understand the great responsibility that they have undertaken, otherwise regardless of what one might hide behind to validate one's moral highground one is still engaging in creating suffering - an activity that is no better than that undertaken by scammers themselves. I'm sure that many baiters out there have the creative capacity and intelligence to create some real positive change.


We're making real positive change to victims. We are engaging in relieving suffering - of victims.

And everybody is responsible for their own morals, their own ethics, and their own conscience while doing that. We cannot see into anyone else's mind or motivations. Therefore, for myself, I'd rather not try to guess them, and I'd certainly rather not guess-and-then-judge them.

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weareborg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

With the greatest respect for the people that have responded to modern primitive I would ask the question, Why are you bothering.

Modern Primitive has made a post which is more then likely a Cut & Paste from somewhere else, banging the morals // ethic's drum, for no other reason then to incite a reaction. And he has done just that. Don't expect a reply from him . It's not about to happen anytime soon

He bangs on about why we do what we do. And the answer is quite simply because we can

We should be asking him if he has had any bad experiences with a Scammer, And if he has he would soon change his thinking.

As for battles with monsters. The only people we effect are people that deserve what we serve up to them.. It's like the old hanging debate.

Hanging serves no purpose is barbaric and serves no real purpose in the modern world. What they forget to tell you is that people who are hanged Don't re'offend.

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Wright B Hindyou
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Causing suffering is causing suffering (period). Regardless of whether it's a widow a child or a scammer.

So, the OP doesn't believe in educating children to behave in a decent manner? Because disciplining a child in any way causes 'suffering'.

As Ken Wilber once wrote, 'there is idiot compassion and true compassion'.

Idiot compassion is where you give an alcoholic a bottle of brandy, on the grounds that to deny it to them will cause 'suffering'. True compassion demands that you give them a kick up the *ss, or 'tough love', to get them to pull themselves together.

Suggesting we have to go around not causing 'suffering' to any 'living creature' is the kind of mealy-mouthed, weak-minded, morally myopic horses*it which is currently plaguing Western civilisation.

These are amoral scammers, who are quite happy to kill directly or indirectly, and ruin people's lives without a shred of conscience, and you have the idiocy to suggest that there is a moral equivalence between what they do and what we do?

Quote:
I've hit a nerve.


You've certainly hit mine -- I always object to being likened to 'children pointing fingers' by an ignorant twerp who has no idea of the amount of good this community has done in warning and supporting victims of scams, and distracting scammers from their frauds.

Quote:
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dr stephen williams
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hey, I think he left.

Maybe the next ethics thread, we really can copy and past all our responses.

The responses have all been pretty even.

Shame this guy won't be reading them.

Blah.

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DoraTheExplorer
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This ethics thread has been filled with great responses! (It should eventually be moved to the sticky! Laughing )

I have nothing more intelligent to add, so I have just been watching you uber-smart people post well-thought out responses to the OP. Kudos to all!!


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Wright B Hindyou
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:38 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^
Doc,

I think many of us are not replying to the OP specifically, but making our views available to the many visitors to Eater who have an interest in this topic.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

You all do so well and I feel like Dora. Wink

I'll have popcorn, girlfriend! Very Happy

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Cachuma
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Classic ethics thread. Hit-and-run post full of uninformed, lad-hugging psychobabble bullshit, followed by a bunch of well-thought-out and irrefutable responses completely shredding every meager, illogical point in the original post. Followed by deafening silence from the OP, who probably never bothered to read past the first few responses when it became obvious to him that he had no clue what he was talking about...no comprehension of what we actually do, nor the reasons behind what we do, nor the positive impact on the world at large of what we do.

I've got a $39.5 million consignment that says the OP won't be back.

The thing that cracked me up the most about his moral outrage at all the "suffering" we cause, is the indisputable fact that the vast majority of suffering caused by baiting is...what did Doc call it the other day?... the "hit upside the head with the clue bat" that scammers experience when they realize that all their criminal efforts to scam a victim and destroy some innocent person's life didn't actually work. Clearly the OP would rather that nobody do anything to prevent the scammers from the immense satisfaction they receive every time they steal the life savings of some poor schmuck who bought into the lad's carefully crafted scam. Garsh, it's just so immoral to deprive these poor, misguided scammers of the joy they get from stealing! Who are we to keep them from this joy? Oh, the SUFFERING these criminals must feel when their scams don't pay off! How AWFUL we are for causing such suffering!

Meh. Rolling Eyes

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