Ethics

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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:46 am

WBHY, yeah, I know.... I hate these threads, though, as its always the same points. I feel like a chump for having been sucked in to it.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 03 Mar 2009 Posts: 41

Yea I was pissed when I read his post but now the only thing that pisses me off is that he won't be reading or responding to all these wonderful posts telling him how big a douche he is. lol

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:55 am

Doc, I don't know how long it's been since a lad hugger started an ethics thread, but I suspect it's been a while based on the responses. I think it's inevitable that these threads will crop up every now and then - and it's not a bad thing. It gives guests and new members an opportunity to read the important points made in the responses here. While the "Ethics" sticky is a great explanation of at least some of the ethical issues surrounding baiting, it doesn't include everything.

It's also a good exercise for us, to remind ourselves of why we do this, and of the lines that we don't want to cross. Because there ARE lines that shouldn't be crossed, and we can sometimes draw a little bit too close to them. These ethics threads serve a purpose.

And one of those purposes it serves for me is -- it actually renews my commitment to be as ruthless as ever in my baiting, so I can cause ever more "suffering" when my lads realize that they are NOT going to get thousands of stolen dollars from my dotty baiting character. Twisted Evil

This may not be the result that the OP was hoping for - but it's the RIGHT result.

Hellish Taskmaster Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 537

^ Exactly. I've had doubts as to how far I should bait, and I've come to these two basic terms:

No lying (except for identity stuff, of course. I'm just not going to lie about where I will be, etc.)

No religion (It's bad enough scammers abuse it, so I won't. No TWAT for me, sorry.)

Everything else is fair game.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

Quote:

I'm here to make people think about their actions.

I find that about as arrogant as one who smears dung on a wall and calls it art.

edit: Changed meaningful for arrogant.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:01 am

MP, your post reminds me of something I might have written once upon a time when I was in college. Yes, many of us here graduated from college.

In my case, I got over it.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:02 am

I'm with Dora and Corona, please pass the popcorn.

The funny stuff like pictures, videos, safaris...is the advertising that draws people in. This raises awareness and brings in new people to join the cause. The OP fails to see the tremendous amount of work that goes on behind the scenes. The "high's" come, not from the humiliation of the scammer, but from the thanks received from the potential victims who are warned.

Elite Baiter Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 1006

Quote:

As a wise Frederick Nietzsche once said:

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster yourself.."

"Wise" Nietzsche denied a moral absolute (God) which makes it difficult to have any objective standard by which to judge what is monstrous behavior. Perhaps that contributed to his psychotic break and eventual madness. (Sorry to bring religion into it but I'm not going to let "God is dead" Nietzsche go unchallenged as a wise thinker.

I'll take my wisdom from Edmund Burke:

Quote:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

I know OP is long gone but I am dying to know how my pity will make one scammer stop his crimes.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:26 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhODBFQ2-bQ

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:52 am

I go away for a month and what do i come back to? An ethics thread....

Sigh Rolling Eyes

Hellish Taskmaster Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 537

beckythatcher wrote:

"Wise" Nietzsche denied a moral absolute (God) which makes it difficult to have any objective standard by which to judge what is monstrous behavior. Perhaps that contributed to his psychotic break and eventual madness. (Sorry to bring religion into it but I'm not going to let "God is dead" Nietzsche go unchallenged as a wise thinker.

Yes, and Nietzche was an anti-Semitic and inspired Hitler.

Quote:

I know OP is long gone but I am dying to know how my pity will make one scammer stop his crimes.

So do I. You can say, "I'm sorry", but what good will it do? Question

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:18 am

Wow, I have to say that the self acclaimed modernPrimative gave me pause to think. It helped me clear my perspective and explanation about why I bait. It wa this comment that got me:

PmS wrote:

And so too I suspect some baiters live for the thrill of their next hit.....

I realized that I am like a rodeo bull fighter/clown. I bait to distract the criminals from people who are their intended victim. Is there a thrill in that? Yup. There is also satisvaction in knowing that the criminal is looking at me instead of a victim that WILL be hurt by the criminal's actions.

I wonder what kind of thrill YOU get from tossing out and uninformed piece of drivel and not having the fortitude to return and see that there is more to what we do than what you think there is.

I see you as a self righteous coward.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:38 am

I think we've been baited. How unethical... Laughing

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:51 am

Please don't feed the troll! Laughing

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:00 am

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if modern primitive was young. I went back to uni as a mature age student and got stuck in an ethics course with a bunch of 16 and 17 year olds, with similar black and white outlooks on the world untempered by experience. They really need to quite their moaning about suffering and have a close look at the theory about utilitarianism which is all about minimising suffering. I don't see us baiters as vigilantes, but rather practising utilitarians.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:09 am

I'm with TSNerd on this one. The first thing I noticed was the total arrogance of the post. I guess we aren't capable of thinking without someone (who already has all the answers) stepping in to help us. It's just too bad that those answers aren't based on any real understanding or information.

Quote:

Please I'm not condoning scamming at all, I'm well aware of the suffering it creates and I'm well aware of the types of people that scammers are. I know these people are criminals.

That initial post reveals that you are not aware at all. Scammers are criminals, yes, but much more than that. They are amoral and have a very warped sense of right and wrong. They are often devout Christians who pray for God to send them "magas"--"fools" to steal from. They live in a corrupt society that condones and ignores their actions. They often are not poor people struggling to survive--some of them are the richest in their nations. Do they stop because they have enough to provide for the rest of their lives? No, they keep going for another nice car or a bigger house. Do they care if their victims are poor and struggling? No, they will scam from the poor in their own country too--they don't care who they are hurting. If we could appeal to the conscience of a scammer and get him to stop, we would be doing that. But you can't appeal to a conscience when it doesn't exist. I have literally seen thousands of exchanges with scammers, and I have seen a scammer have an attack of conscience a total of once. As for victims--they lose a lot more than money--some lose their freedom or even their lives--and even those with relatively minor financial losses often end up losing their faith in themselves and others, and many ultimately end up isolated, cut off from family and friends.

Quote:

If you spent all the time, effort and money that goes into baiting into creating peace, love and tolerance

As nice as it is to have some idealistic vision of sitting around the fire singing Kumbaya with the scammers, it's not gonna happen, period. Well, not unless you paid the scammers a very large sum of money to do it, anyway, and that would sort of defeat the purpose.

I find the addict analogy to be interesting, because in some ways it is accurate. A heroin addict will lie, cheat, and steal, and won't care who he hurts to get his drug, just as a scammer will do these same things to get free money. An addict will not just decide one day when he is still hanging on that he wants to get better. Most of the time an addict only gets clean because he/she (a) is arrested or (b) hits bottom. An arrest is the biggest "trophy" there is around here. Everyone here would be happier with an arrest than a safari. But if we can't make plan (a) happen, we'll settle for plan (b). If scamming brings him to his lowest point, it just might be enough to make him quit.

Do people sign up here because they want to torture strange people and feel morally justified in doing it? Sure--They come in, make a few attempts at getting a trophy picture or safari after just a few emails, and when it fails for the third or fourth time, they will disappear. The people who stay are those who keep their eyes on the bigger shared goals. Those famous baits took lots of patience and real work, and people looking for a quick sadistic thrill aren't prepared for that.

You actually should try baiting, if for no other reason to get a more realistic understanding of who we are really dealing with. Ironically, I personally am more of a warner than a baiter, and I couldn't bring myself to do many things others are willing to do. But I also respect those baiters who are willing to go further than I am, as they are in fact doing what they feel is right.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:33 am

^
Dorothy,

Wonderful summary. clapping

Ethics threads do have value, after all. Smile

Master Baiter Joined: 15 Nov 2008 Posts: 210

beckythatcher wrote:

(Sorry to bring religion into it but I'm not going to let "God is dead" Nietzsche go unchallenged as a wise thinker.

You really don't think Nietzsche meant that literally do you?

I'm curious what makes him 'unwise' other than the fairly commonplace belief that you needn't have a diety as the central figure of an ethic.

Master Baiter Joined: 15 Nov 2008 Posts: 210

GSN_fan wrote:

Yes, and Nietzche was an anti-Semitic and inspired Hitler.

That would be 100 percent not true.

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:35 am

^^ yup it was a badly deformed interpretation of Darwins theory and Nietzsche's philosophy which had been adopted by the Germans in WW1 yes that is 1. Hitler just added his own salt and pepper to it.

Altogether now 5 little monkeys jumping on the bed one fell off and.....

Edit screwed up the lyrics from my own YT link

419Eater is my life Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 416

Quote:

One cannot justify creating misery just because those we do it to "did it first".

That comment made me feel really miserable. Thanks pal!

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:04 am

Wright B Hindyou wrote:

^
Dorothy,

Wonderful summary. clapping

Are you saying Dorothy's well composed and considered response is somehow more constructive than "...who fucking cares?" Wink

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:23 am

modernPrimitive could always test out his 'non retribution' hypothesis by going downtown on a Saturday night and picking the biggest drunken low life he meets and tell him 'he sucks' to discover if his ideas are shared by the world in general.

I'm not here to prove that I am morally superior to anyone. I'm throwing obstacles in the path of scammers. If they get harmed in the process of negotiating those obstacles, I personally find it hilarious and morally justifiable. In my rugby playing days if I surruptitiously slugged some opponent for foul play, I didn't immediately tend his bloody nose.

Mostly the people we bait have no moral compass and regularly pray to the Lord for success in scamming victims, who are as likely to be fellow Africans or others from the Third World, as Westerners.

I read on one official site recently that scams have netted amounts as high as $2m and there are 17 recorded murders by scammers. Forgiveness is fine, but scammers don't need the encouragement that will give them.

As long as the argument that 'scamming is the fault of victims' is used then 'baiting is the fault of the scammer' applies.

No chickens were harmed in making this post. Twisted Evil

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:44 am

Here he thought that hitting a nerve would somehow validate an argument. I am glad you all restrained yourselves. Laughing

Edit: Thread unlocked. Play nice. Very Happy

modernPrimitive PM'd me and wished to respond. Allow him the courtesy.

Master Baiter Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 226

Has anyone tried the OP modality of a caring wealthy retiree who knows about scamming and wants to pay to change it?