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 Useless rant : Am I peeing in a violin or what?

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Jerome
Master Baiter


Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 237
Location: Paris, France


PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I feel already sorry for this "rant of the day", please forgive me but I feel It needs to come out.

I'm currently very tired.
It's something like a month since I officially killed my first site. I've killed before but it was just when I came across a fake site during a bait once in a while, with no track of reports and kills...

So in the last month I've sent like a dozen reports, maybe more because some sites needed several report in several languages depending on host and registar.
I may be slow, but I think I spend at least two hours per site, between time needed to enter it into the forum, do some initial checks, whois search, then search the web and analyse the site.
So I don't think I could kill more than two or three sites a week, and really if I did it full-time (hey I have a job too !)


Now I happen to find other fake sites while doing searches on google or tineye.

A lot.

I did the math. I find an average of two other fake sites by reported ones.

So from my very little experience I draw an obvious conclusion:

The rate at which they open fake sites is much faster than the one at which we close them.


Now I'm totally discouraged. Please tell me this is useful and that we're not peeing in a violin (as we say in French). Are we hurting them at least ? Are we saving some victims ?
I doubt and am about to quit this fight...
I'm spent.


J.

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Ivor Grimey Colon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Every victim pointed to a fake site that's been killed is a victim helped. A lot of duplicate sites will be made by rival lads, so the lad that sent the link to the killed site won't have to link of the duplicate to send to the victim. Time spent site killing is time well spent. Don't be discouraged.

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tyme_wastr
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I look at it this way, I cannot kill every site out there. I do not have the time or the resources. But I can make a difference in a small way....kind of like baiting.

I may not make a big difference, but if I save one victim from the scammers, I have done well.

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bill2
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:34 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I have the same problem here, only on it for a week, I can do a site a day, sometimes two and there's a never ending list of them, did three yesterday, got two ready for today and there are more loaded every day. With a domain for sale for $6-$10 I'm not really making a dent here, got some nice flags, but that's more a band aid than a trophy for lost time. I am getting faster though.
So far I think, that's $10 lost and two hours of copying from other sites in time lost for the lad, now if I only could get a little faster there I would make some progress. But then I see people with 2000 kills on their list and it seems a hopeless fight.
I dunno anymore so I do understand bertrand79 it starts to look like a job that never gets done typing :banghead: Dancing Banana

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Donato
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

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Ima Baeder
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Bertrand, you're doing very well with killing sites and definitely making a difference. Please keep it up! Thumbs up

First of all, researching and reporting will be less time consuming for you after more experience. Wink

Fake site killing as compared to baiting actually has much more of a direct result, more quickly!
Can you say that after having baited a lad for a total of two hours you'll have cost him as much effort as you will have by killing his site?

Site Killing does make a difference. Any future victims who would have been convinced by it are helped and the lads get frustrated. The best part is that he never saw it coming. Very Happy It's one of the few areas of anti-fraud activity that has near immediate results.

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Titania
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think this story applies here.

The Parable of the Starfish Saver

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Ivor Grimey Colon
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

bill2 wrote:
So far I think, that's $10 lost and two hours of copying from other sites in time lost for the lad, now if I only could get a little faster there I would make some progress. But then I see people with 2000 kills on their list and it seems a hopeless fight.
Whether or not it's hopeless depends on your goal. If your goal is to stop scamming forever, you're kidding yourself. As unfortunate as it is, every baiter knows that. If it's to cause the lads as much hassle as possible while sitting in the comfort of your own desk chair, it's a sure-fire winner.
You may see it as $10 and 2 hours of the lads time lost, but think about the people with 2000 kills. That's $20,000 the lads aren't spending on rolexes or TVs and 200 hours they aren't email potential victims. You may be fighting a never ending battle, but you're doing a lot of damage as you go!

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Doodle Bug
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Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:11 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
C'est comme pisser dans un violon

No Bertrand
You are not pissing in the wind as we Brits say

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Freddy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't have much to say here; my opinions have already been expressed above. Killing fake sites does help to put a dent in a victim's trust, as Ima said, if that person was convinced by it. On saving victims, I have come across several sites that contained info about victims. These I extracted and passed on to the mods. I'm sure that it wasn't just me, and a lot of site killers have come across such things. I may be wrong, but I also believe that most of the time these sites aren't set up by the lads themselves, but they actually are paying someone to do it for them. If that is the case, I'm sure that lads lose more than the $10 spent on the domain.

So to answer your question, you're not peeing in a violin. Wink

bertrand79 wrote:
So I don't think I could kill more than two or three sites a week... Now I happen to find other fake sites while doing searches on google or tineye.

If you have sites that need to be killed but don't have the time to do so yourself, post it in the FB forum and one of us will be glad to take good care of it. Wink

Also, I'd like to say that new killers are always welcome. We could always use the extra help. Smile


Edit to add quote.

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the vampire
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The only advice i can give to Bertrand is don't look at the seemingly endless work you want to do , but look behind and see what you've achived . There are millions of people who know about these scammers but don't do a thing . But you do .

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Artemis
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Bertrand, as a French speaker you are enormously valuable to fake site killing. All too often French hosters respond far quicker to abuse reports in French.

When I started I had the same hopeless feeling as you have and the advice I got was "You can't unfuck the whole world". The reward is knowing that you might have saved one victim.

Ima said it that as time goes on you become better at knowing what each hoster wants in an abuse report and you also become better at extracting the important bits of evidence needed for the report.

I have been killing for 2 years and sometimes I also can take over an hour for a report but at other times I can do 10 in an hour or two.

My advice is to tackle some of the easier ones first. Don't go for the uncooperative hosters or the sites with little evidence or domains that are used for email only. Any of the mentors here can give you links to sites that will be easy to kill.

I would also ask Full Auto for an invite to the fake site killing chat run by aa419 and they will also help you choose some sites where you can gain experience.

I am happy to write reports in English for French hosters which you can then translate and send. The flag will be yours.

Just don't quit Smile

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bill2
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Okay you got me wrong there or my DEnglish isn't good enough Laughing

I will keep at it, each kill does more that a 6 months of average scambaiting, but I'm looking for ways to get more killed, more revealed and to make providers aware of the illegal activities they allow on their network under their supervision. I guess we need a lawyer to scare their pants of by threatening that the victims will hold him responsible for their loss or something like it.
Now it's just easy money for them while they are making it difficult for us to get those domains closed.
And yes I do understand bertrand79 even if he pees in a violin Laughing
but he'll keep at it too, that's what's the rant is for, just growling while you push that boulder a tad further to the top of that endless mountain slope.

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SlapHappy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Bertrand, I did some fake bank killing in the beginning, and I know the feeling. It takes a lot of time, the fake sites never seem to end, and you don't get the personal satisfaction of getting an anguished email from a lad. Everything is hidden from your view. No lad rants, you never know the victims you might have saved, etc. But, it does make a difference. I really admire the people who can stick with inputting all the details needed and follow the procedures necessary to close them down. I had trouble keeping focus and concentrationg at all the details. It's just not my bag, I guess. Try Artemis' advice and join the chat forum. Maybe you can make a more personally satisfying difference in a slightly different role there. Smile

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Ari
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

bertrand79 wrote:
Are we hurting them at least ? Are we saving some victims ?
Yes... Smile

http://forum.aa419.org/viewtopic.php?p=143138&highlight=arrests#143138
autosec wrote:
more arrests:

BUCHAREST / 17:30, 22.10.2008
Romanian prosecutors with the Department for the Investigation of Organized Crime and Terrorism indicted 80 people on charges of fraud and money laundering in the case targeting Internet auction fraud.

The culprits managed to swindle many people who transferred money via Western Union and MoneyGram for the goods they purchase via Internet auction fraud.

Gendarmes and police officers fighting organized crime in Bucharest, Timisoara, Oradea, Vaslui and Caras-Severin conducted 41 home checkups and seized 19 laptops, five PCs, 11 Hard Disks, 4 Modems, two Routers, 744 CDs, 109 DVDs, 13 bank cards, 73 mobile phones, two non-lethal pistols, as well as 26,568 lei (EUR1-RON3.5909), EUR15,495 and GBP 840.

In 2007, Gheorghe Marius Ivan and Ion Andrei set up two criminal groups involved in Internet auction fraud via fake “escrow" websites and credit card data belonging to other people, which brought them a lot of money via Western Union and MoneyGram from people all over the world.

The culprits cashed the money using fake IDs

taken from

http://www.mediafax.ro/engleza/romanian-prosecutors-indict-80-people-in-internet-fraud-case.html?6966;3349826
autosec wrote:
and 17 more:

http://www.mediafax.ro/social/valcea-ordonante-de-retinere-pentru-17-suspecti-de-fraude-informatice.html?1688;3352879

RÂMNICU VÂLCEA / 09:18, 23.10.2008
A total of 17 persons who are part of the grouping of specialized in committing the fraud information have been detained for 24 hours on the ordinance and will be presented Thursday magistrates vâlceni proposal of preventive arrest, while the other six persons were imprisoned .

According to judicial sources, a number of 17 detainees who are part of this criminal network have been detained for 24 hours on the ordinance, and during the day Thursday will be presented magistrates vâlceni with the proposal of preventive arrest.

Also, the Quebec Court magistrates are to issue arrest warrant preventive missing in ten people who are part of the same group that specializes in committing fraud and information which were not found at home when the searches, said sources quoted.

Meanwhile, another six people were imprisoned at the Police Company, although their names on the European arrest warrants issued by the Austrian authorities.

Thursday, the continuing hearings VALCEA DIICOT accused in this case, with a day ago was questioned about 30 people.

Directorate for the Investigation of acts of organized crime and terrorism has put in charge 80 people in the case of fraudulent auctions on the Internet, being tricked dozens of people who have transferred money via Western Union and MoneyGram, representing the amount of the goods.
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Mugatu
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

At aa419, they say:
Quote:
A lad cries when his site dies


You have so far made 7 lads extremely unhappy. Having his site killed is one of the worst things that can happen to a successful lad, it may have taken him a lot of time, or a lot of money to have that site made.

Like you, I'm a beginner at site killing, and sometimes it's taken me a while to compile the evidence for a particular site, but it'll get easier.
Don't give up on it, you are seriously spoiling a lad's week, or even his month when you cook his website, so the effort is well worth it. You are saving maybe dozens of victims at a time.

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lifson
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It can be disheartening, but I have a way of looking at similar situations life which may help you. It is difficult sometimes to remember and believe in it - but it is ultimately true.

At any one time - there is a finite number of lads. These lads can only put up a finite number of sites. There is also finite number of baiters, who can shut down a finite number of sites.

At the moment, baiters are almost certainly outnumbered. However - it is theoretically possible, if more baiters keep coming along, for us to catch up. At the moment, you feel that your work is insignificant because for every site you close, 10 more appear to spring up.

The key thing to remember is that if you give up, the balance goes further into the lads' favour and we need to recruit yet another baiter before equilibrium (or us outnumbering them!) can be reached. If you stick at it - you slow their growth, cost them money, maybe even make a few give up in frustration, and help the baiting community remain one step closer to making 419 fraud history forever.

That last bit sounds like an impossible task - but then Star Trek looked impossible back in the day, and now we have handheld wireless communicators, satelite communication and location as a matter of routine, food dispensers, laser weapons, developments in cloaking technology, and manned space travel.

I hope that came across okay. Stick at it buddy. I'm about to start baiting, so lets make my efforts be in addition to yours rather than replacing them Very Happy
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Titania
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^ For a first post, that was a doozy! clapping

If your baiting, site killing, etc., live up to that, you'll be a great asset here!

Welcome to Eater! Very Happy

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those words really made me felt completely bad..and i had to dust my ass and wipe tears Micheal David
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full auto
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

bertrand79 wrote:
Now I'm totally discouraged. Please tell me this is useful and that we're not peeing in a violin (as we say in French). Are we hurting them at least ? Are we saving some victims ?
I doubt and am about to quit this fight...
I'm spent.


Bertrand my friend, pace yourself and please do not get burnt out. As has been said above, French speakers are rare in our part of the anti-fraud fight. However, that's not the most important thing here. Do we make a dent? Yes! The DDOS attack proved it. I too pick up more fake sites than I can kill (and I haven't killed for a while due to RL and other anti-scam projects in the works). However, here's where we make our biggest dent, team work, those sites you pick up, you will never have time to kill them all like Rambo. However you make a nice post in the FB forum here or at aa419 eater, and it's there for later or it's there for us to do what we all should do, fight as a team. The more successful scammers play in teams, we should do the same to. This game we play is not meant for lone rangers.

Your efforts are not worthless, what would be worthless is people giving up and allowing these sh*t's to run free on the net. As Artemis mentioned above, feel free to contact me about site killers chat, it's been set up as a working chat for support reasons. We've talked on skype before and I'd love to chat more frequently.

Hang tough! You aren't the only one that realizes the size of this mess.

@ lifson: Nice first post, can't wait to see you in the mix.
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Wright B Hindyou
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Bertrand,

You may also gain comfort from knowing that Lads whose fake sites you kill are probably among the more successful and ambitious Lads out there (and hence more dangerous to potential victims).

By contrast, general baiting often (though not always) deals with some pretty dumb specimens of Laddery.... Wink

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larry
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

One of the things that i have noticed is that the popularity of this site and others continues to grow. there have been numerous occasions when local and even international media have taken notice of Scambaiting activities. This usually brings in new members who become baiters and on and on.

The role of the more experienced on this site becomes less of actual baiting (although it is fun) and more of being a mentor to new baitors. That is where you can really make a difference. Get experience shutting down sites and then use your skills to train others.

I think the real satisfaction comes from seeing new baitors properly equipped with skills and killing sites rather than just doing it yourself.
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Jerome
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Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:13 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I won't be able to answer to everybody but thanks Smile
I get the message.
I won't quit obviously but I was wondering if we make a dent at all. What if lads create web sites on a "victim" basis. One hook, one site. That would make our job pretty useless... Sad

Titania wrote:
I think this story applies here.

The Parable of the Starfish Saver

And what if there are billions of starfish on the shore? Hundreds of men of good will won't do much Sad

Sorry to sound negative. It's currently raining cats and dogs here in Paris.

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bill2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

LOL_sign we got snow Smile
Killed two for you today, decided to crank it up a bit, got 4-5 in the waiting room with report sent and two on the menu for tomorrow and who knows what will come in during my night.
We'll get them, not all, but I'm very pleased that I can kill a website that was registered on 10/30/2008, that lad really had other ways to spend that much time and money.
Now if you get a nice "croissant au beurre et un chocolat chaud" in the morning for me, we're even Wink

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Since Ive been a Member here, scammers have spent over 6 hours on the phone to me, repeating the details of the transaction and reciting the Lord Prayer.

That 6 hours is 6 hours less they can scam victims.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:32 am Reply with quoteBack to top

bertrand79

As Artemis said, contact Full Auto, Artemis, Special_K or I. We have a support network designed just for people who feel like you do.

Trust me, it gets easier.
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