Illegal dogs

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Master Baiter Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 114

@gnasher. I addressed that question some time ago. I will repeat it for you.

I found the dog as a pup roaming the streets. When I found him I thought that he was a Staffordshire bull terrier. I took him in and grew to love him. It was only some time later that I found out that he is a pit bull. He is friendly, loving and obedient. He adores my wife and would do anything to protect her. Everybody that meets him wants to take him home.

He never has, and never will, hurt anybody.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:18 am

If you found the dog wandering the streets I'm surprised the vet didn't tell you it was a pit bull when you took it in for its health check, de-sexing and puppy vaccinations.

Quote:

He adores my wife and would do anything to protect her.

And that's the problem. It's a fine line between "attack" and "protect" and you can't expect a dog, no matter how well trained, to understand the difference.

Master Baiter Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 114

Every dog that I have ever owned would do anything to protect the family. I've had bull terriers for 36 years now and have always been a responsible owner. As far as the laws are concerned, it's about time the authorities dealt with the problem at the other end of the lead and stopped blaming the dog.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:28 am

I'm at the point in my life that I don't want anything to water or feed unless it is a flower. Very Happy

Master Baiter Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 114

I suffer from hayfever. Kill all flowers! Laughing

Edit to add - ...but leave the weed.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:36 am

As far as I know there isn't a law on this planet that can stop irresponsible idiots being, erm, irresponsible idiots. If only... So the law sometimes has to protect people from themselves and if that means not allowing them to own dangerous animals, substances, weapons, etc in the first place then so be it.

Master Baiter Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 114

An "irresponsible idiot" can buy a car and drive a bunch of kids in a school bus off the road. I, however, do not see myself as being irresponsible.

I realise that Eric could do damage and therefore keep him away from any situation where he may feel threatened. I have him muzzled and wearing strong harness and lead. I do not let him off the lead - EVER and always ensure that there are at least 2 closed doors between him and the outside world.

I believe that in the end it all comes down to understanding the harm that a dog can do. This doesn't just apply to pit bulls, but to any dog. If you don't know how to train and handle a powerful dog then don't get one. If you don't know how to drive then don't buy a car.

Simple.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:48 am

I have a neighbor dog the poops in my yard when Lovey is not home. Twisted Evil

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:40 am

Gf's Mum was hospitalised 3 days ago for a dog bite. It was a bitza. It was her dog unfortunatley she had too many dogs and some of them had started
to attack an older sick dog and she tried to intervene. She was bitten on the hand and that night it was like a boxing glove. She's expected to be in till mid next at least.
All the dogs were taken away last night by an welfare organisation. Something that should of happened a few years ago.
This is the same couple that scammed a few weeks ago by roof repair scammers for $3K. Hasn't been a good month for them.

fyi
Bitza - Bit of this and a bit of that

Master Baiter Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 114

Sorry to hear that, especially after such a blow earlier in the month. It shows though that any dog can and will bite - even more so when part of a "pack".

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

Gnasher wrote:

de-sexing

My wife had that done to me.

...but I did learn the secret handshake of the Capon Society.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:36 am

I don't think the OP has to justify why he has that type of dog. The fact is he has it & probably won't willing get rid of him. If people can own poisonous vipers, instinctual predators mind you, then they should be able to have a pit bull which largely are not predatory. And furthermore, when their general MO is to act routinely predatory, they have been taught by humans to be that way. I don't see what can be gained by having the OP justify why he has this type of dog any more than it would be asking why one speeds when speeding is illegal & potentially dangerous & deadly. And quite frankly I think the real concern if there is any is that the OP considered not seeking treatment for the dog when he required it. Pet owners have a responsibility to meet the needs of their animals, regardless of species or breed and if the owner is not willing or able, for whatever reason, of meeting that responsibility they should not own a pet.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

@thefife, the OP asked for this discussion.

Scambo wrote:

I'm interested to hear the thoughts of other members.

People are telling him their thoughts.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:49 am

@ Ima I thought he meant in regards to the breed being illegal as opposed to a referendum on his owning one.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

@ thefife: Maybe so, but opening the discussion about owning an illegal animal, he might have anticipated the question and it's obviously part of people's thoughts on this.

I've steered clear of this thread thus far and will slink back out. Laughing

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:57 am

@ Ima k

Also, I'm curious as to what happens with the dogs? Are they simply rounded up & murdered? What about a pit mix? Killed?

Master Baiter Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 114

I actually meant from all angles. Should pit bulls be banned? Should I need to think twice about taking him to the vet? ( Actually I only pondered on this question for about an hour, during which time he was fast asleep with his head on my knee and was not in any pain. The pain only started when he was jumping onto the settee etc. ).

As regards the post above, there are actually loads of pit bulls openly walked on the streets of the UK. The area in which I live was, at one time, a hot-bed of dog fighting. The TV program Panorama actually made a documentary which was centred around a place about 200 yards from where I now live.

As far as I now understand it, if you have a dog that is a "pit bull type" then you can go to court, and, as long as the dog can be seen to be of good nature then it is added to the pit bull register. The owner has to have the dog neutered, tattooed with a reference number and you have to take out special pit bull insurance. Under these circumstances the dog is allowed to live.

Add - to edit for thefife

As I understand it, a pit bull mixed dog is a pit bull. It's down to certain DNA patterns I think.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:05 am

The only thing that I could put to sleep is an insect and I will continue reading this thread now that I don't have to run to the right. Razz

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

Since others have, I am going to post a picture of my bloodthirsty hound.

And I will add my two cents.

There is a nature vs. nurture element involved. My little rat is the most loving Yorkie on earth, but when I turn it loose on the gophers in my back yard, it digs into the ground furiously to kill the little bastards. It is doing instinctively what it it's breeding genetically led it to do, to kill rats and other rodents in the coal mines of Yorkshire, England. (I once was carrying a gopher, in a trap, to bury it and Scout jumped up and skinned it from neck to ass in one swipe) Border Collies do much the same, they have a "herding" instinct. It is genetic, Pit Bulls were bred to fight, breeders picked the strongest fighters and continued the bloodline.

Can nurture overcome the genetic makeup of these dogs? Perhaps over time, but the basic, deeply inbred instinct is still there for many generations.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:08 am

^^^Thank you very much! Smile

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:56 am

I don't really get the whole pet thing, but that's another matter.

condsider the following :

Quote:

I live in the UK where most guns are illegal but I'd like to own a Barrett .50 sniper rifle and a box of ammunition for it. If I found one would it be alright to keep it as I am fairly skilled in weapons handling ?
It's really cute and hardly anyone's been killed by them, most are killed or injured by smaller calibre weapons. I could leave it loaded, cocked and pointing out the window towards the school over the road, I know it's safe, even when my small kids are about.

Quote:

I'd like to have some herbal cannabis that I found on the railway embankment; it's for my own use and it doesn't do any harm to you (unless you listen to a load of so-called "medical" people) and anyway I've used it for years so I know what I'm doing.

Like it or not, the law is the law, whether it be owning a big growly dog, a firearm, drugs, some types of porn or many other things. You cannot choose which laws to obey. If you don't like the law, then campaign for change; I fear you would garner little support.

As for going to court to prove your dog is harmless and cuddly, I think it unlikely that a court would look kindly on your transgressions, you never know though, why not give it a try ?

edit: found this :
Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 (c. 65) Section 1 subsection 7

Quote:

Any person who contravenes this section is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or both

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:51 am

Quote:

It is genetic, Pit Bulls were bred to fight, breeders picked the strongest fighters and continued the bloodline.

That is the most commonly cited misinformation.

Pitbulls are not bred for aggression. They are bred for gameness. The aggression is trained into them. They may have a high prey drive, but so do almost all hunting breeds, and many northern breeds too. Sadly, that prey drive may be used to help train the dog to be aggressive, but without that training, they would be like any other breed that often can't be trusted with cats and small animals.

There is a big difference between gameness and aggression.

Quote:

Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human
virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any
situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in
pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding. It is what
allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours,
in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration,
and exhaustion. But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never
think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude
of pit bulls toward any type of challenge, whether agility competitions,
climbing up trees, or protecting their family against an armed attacker,
etc. (Yes, check out Richard Stratton's books for photos of pit bulls
actually climbing up the trunk of a big tree in order to nestle in the
branches 15 feet off the ground.)

Generally speaking, a game dog is an emotionally stable, easy-going dog,
especially good with kids. Gameness should not be confused with
aggressiveness. There are plenty of aggressive dogs that are not game,
and there are game pit bulls who are not aggressive toward other types
of dogs. Aggressiveness will propel a dog into a fight but will only
sustain him for the first few minutes. Gameness, on the other hand,
will not necessarily make a dog fight-happy; but if the dog has no
other choice but to fight, a game dog will fight until it wins or dies
trying, and will keep going as long as necessary.

Several years ago, I knew a special pittie named Baxter. Baxter had a favorite toy--an extremely large ball (about 18" in diameter) that he loved. He would play with the toy literally until he was exhausted, and he would still try to keep going after that. He would do anything for the ball, respond to any command. You could throw 6 other dogs, a few young kids, and a host of other distractions in front of him, but if he saw his ball, he would tune all of those distractions out and run straight for itl. In spite of his obsession, he was completely accepting of a human taking away his ball, though he would continue to watch his ball and hope they would give it back. Where is he now? He was pulled from the shelter to be trained as a cadaver dog. Dogs used in recovery activities like that need to have very stable temperaments, be good around all kinds of people and other animals, and respond quickly and well to commands. Why was a pitbull like Baxter chosen for the job? Because the rescuers saw the same "gameness" that fighters like--only instead of training him to fight until he could no longer fight, the rescuers could train him to search through bad conditions without giving up. (Of course they took his ball too:)

Educate, evaluate, make both breeders and owners accountable, strengthen and enforce dogfighting laws, and remove dogs from those people who shouldn't have them, and you can much more effectively make the public as a whole safer than you ever can by banning one (or several) breed. You can continue to eliminate breeds, but if you don't address the people who see animals as weapons, bloodsport opportunities, or extensions of their masculinity, they will simply come up with another breed (or another animal, like the snakes someone referenced above) to use for their purposes.

Master Baiter Joined: 16 Jul 2008 Posts: 146

Quote:

I think that he is saying, if it's not these dogs, then something else that will be just as dangerous. That's the argument I see. I mean, they are dogs. How many people really die a year from dogs? Just curious.

In 2007, there were 33 fatal dog maulings in the USA (http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html)

In 2007 there were 33 firefighter deaths from false calls in the USA (www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/osfff.pdf)

BTW, As far as random rage attacks are concerned, "Springer Rage Syndrome", linked to temporal lobe epilepsy in (mostly but not only) English Springer spaniels and English cocker spaniels, causes complex partial seizures. This syndrome can be present in all breeds, and is a possible explanation for "unprovoked" attacks from otherwise pleasant dogs.

This means a well breed and well brought up dog can savage a person for no reason. The condition is thought to be rare, but no studies to date have looked at representation in a larger community of unsymtomatic subjects, and so this cannot be a firm conclusion. It is also thought to be Idiopathic (possibly inherited) and so may or may not be more likely in highly bred dogs, especially those whose history predicates aggression.

EDIT: And because I found it:
This is Taz, A 'rat/toy' dog, a pedigree Pomeranian. Contrary to what some posters above have been saying, I have never had a problem with Taz being snappy or spoilt because I never spoilt him. Small dogs are allowed to get away with more because people rarely acknowledge that the puppy has become a dog, and that bad behaviour is not adorable. This is not limited to small dogs. A woman in the flat above me has an incredibly spoilt cat that (even though snipped) sprays everywhere and scratches at eye height people going up and down the stairs. That cat is not disciplined because ‘he doesn’t know any better’. This is a pedigree breed which is famous for being as trainable as a dog! The only reason he wouldn’t know any better is because he hasn’t been trained to know.

Taz grew up around horses, poultry and big dogs (Alsatians and Collies mostly, but also a Great Dane X Timber Wolf and a couple of Beagles) he has never been treated as a small dog and has never suffered for it. He is one of the most loyal and affectionate dogs I know that will sometimes sit for hours watching you in case you decide to tickle him.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:42 am

Ariyeo wrote:

In 2007 there were 33 firefighter deaths from false calls in the USA

Two words - So what?
Those two statistics have no correlation with each other. If I could find a statistic that 33 hobos pissed into milk bottles last year does that give you a defence? It's totally and utterly irrelevant.

The UK people arguing the Pitbull's corner here refuse to answer the fact that it and the Rottweller are responsible for over 50% of fatalities. They admit the fact that it's owned by "Pikeys" and irresponsible owners yet offer no solution as to how this could be sorted out so that these dogs are not a threat. Instead, it just all "You're so ignorant and mis-informed" arrogant bullshit. "Daily Mail Readers"? That's just crass, impotent bullshit.

These dogs are banned for a reason in the UK. Of course, you'd like to say it's because the rest of us are sooooo stupid, but the fact is that they are banned because they are dangerous. Period.

Now I'm out of this thread, because like Simba, I'm liable to say something I might fucking regret later down the line.

Evil or Very Mad

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:48 am

I don't have a dog at the moment Crying or Very sad

but I do the next best thing - dogsit! Her owner is completely wretched & irresponsible. I'm the regular dog sitter's sitter. I've watched her 3x & she went hang gliding w/ me on my bday & still have yet to ever meet the owner or even get a call/email from her. Rolling Eyes

The 1st is her in the much loathed b-a-t-h-i-n-g s-u-i-t, but since she was going w/ me to water aerobics, she had to look appropriate. Laughing

The 2nd is when we went to the beach on Labor Day.