Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of the Chad Bait

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Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:01 pm

I wonder just how many criminals get caught by those police stings that are set up to look like free vacations or lost money. You see those on the news every day. Criminals don't just turn themselves in yanno. Okay...well some do but most dont...lol.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:07 pm

<---- Happy now jojo? Laughing

I'll take you on as a minion capricio, your first task would be to help me find a way to recruit a lad as a minefield pogo-stick tester.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:08 pm

Rodus wrote:

<---- Happy now jojo? Laughing

No, because he name is not in your siggy, so I cannot google her. Or, oogle her.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:26 pm

I'm not a lawyer. I don't even play one on tv, but I do watch a lot of court dramaramas on tv. Okay, I'll confess; I'm stuck at home with a bum back and too much time on my hands.
One thing I've learned is that in certain criminal cases you have to come to court "with clean hands". Basically it means that if you're doing something criminal (i.e. scamming people), you can't seek restitution from another potentially "criminal" act (i.e. baiting and the potential resulting dangers) because your initial intent was criminal.
What I don't understand is how thieves have successfully sued - and won - homeowners when they have hurt themselves "on the job". That baffles me.

@ Capricio: it sounds like you either should take a break from this forum, or maybe spend a couple of hours over on the ScamWarners forum before you continue here.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:33 pm

Miss_Penguin wrote:

@ Capricio: it sounds like you either should take a break from this forum, or maybe spend a couple of hours over on the ScamWarners forum before you continue here.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:50 pm

Bustyn_Yuhrass wrote:

I'll take you, provided you can get over your reluctance to do anything illegal. One of the duties of my n00bs is to dispose of the bodies.

I can confirm this, I'm one of the mortarboards in his siggy. I had no idea I was in such a small club, and at the time I didn't know it involved bodies. Well I know now. Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:47 pm

As requested here (http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1231226#1231226) I am posting the emails.

I request that you remain civil and keep your snarky comments for people who act like a-holes. If you disagree, that's fine. But don't post your pissy emails here. Feel free to write coherent, disagreements, but no trashing the author. I'll get a mod to delete them or send you a picture of Slightly Out Of It in his underpants with Prof watching. Why YW would take such a pic, I'll never know.

This thing is HUGE (that's what she said), so be warned.

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Hi,

Thanks for your response. It's good to know that you do have a clear idea of the specific activities of the guys you've gone after. One doesn't necessarily get that impression just reading what's on the 419 site. I am a bit surprised to hear that Adamu has ever had much success at scamming, though I do take your word on it. Some of the other guys, like ND or the oga in "Road to Darfut", I can imagine could do well for themselves -- but then they were smart enough to eventually start asking the right questions.

I think the cop analogy is an apt one -- I can see how talking to people who've suffered from these guys could winnow away any empathy you might have had. The thing about cops though, at least in the developed world, is that they are part of a larger system; one where are also lawyers and judges and juries -- people who step in and look (ideally anyway -- I don't think our system functions all that well) objectively at who actually did what and what the punishment for it should be and when it should end. So I wonder if, in these elaborate baits anyway, if those questions come up. That is, do you choose one person to target over another because they've done something particularly egregious, or is is more a matter of expediency -- of who you can get to follow along. And then I wonder if there's ever a time when you decide enough is enough. The impression I get from the forum is that it's over when they figure it out or you stop hearing from them. But is there ever a line drawn before that? In terms of wasting their time, I can see that you could just go on doing that indefinitely, but, for example, with Famous, it doesn't sound like whatever you've got planned for him is going to waste his time so much as ruin his life. I'd plead his case for him if I thought it might help, but somehow I don't think it would.

Thanks again,

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you choose one person to target over another because they've done something particularly egregious, or is is more a matter of expediency -- of who you can get to follow along. And then I wonder if there's ever a time when you decide enough is enough.

Basically, any scammer who tries to steal money is on our short list. We wouldn't want to be discriminating would we? Smile

Adamu was part of a VERY successful gang of lads. However, I don't mind if a stupid lad gets sent to Abeche. They choose a dangerous job. I consider us an occupational hazard.

Famous will know that his fate is as a result of his scamming, don't worry. We will be sure to let him know that his life is completely ruined because of his greed and stupidity.

The judge and jury system is an appropriate question. However, the judge and jury really don't exist for these guys. No one watches them. No one stops them. So, we offer a bit of help where we can. And, the beauty of it is that these guys go on their own accord and are led by their greed. Their thievery is what gets them there.

Jojo

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the beauty of it is that these guys go on their own accord and are led by their greed

I'll concede the point that Adamu's initial motivation was greed and the desire to steal from a church (albeit one who's main expenses seem to be pizza, camel rides, smurfs, hooters and pizza), but not the argument, expressed here: http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148333&start=0 (if I did that right) that "at any point, these lads could have said, "'I have had enough' and just stopped emailing." They could have stopped e-mailing you, but in a fairly short amount of time they were in debt to The Hand (who I think we agree is an innocent bystander in this saga?) and didn't have a way to pay him other than getting, not the 200K, but the 3K that quickly became the focal point of their e-mails, or money from home (which was made a bit difficult by the fake ND/CZ situation).

I wonder if there's any way to avoid these contradictions when the evidence is so closely tied in with the punishment. That is, the punishment is that he's trapped in Abeche, hence you try to keep him there. But part of the evidence you present for why he deserves to be trapped in Abeche is that he doesn't go home, which he can't do, at least partially because of your active interference.

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We will be sure to let him know that his life is completely ruined because of his greed and stupidity.

In Famous's case, I think I'm missing something. I don't see where Famous's odyssey or his fatal mistake of sending those photos was motivated by greed, just lust. And who hasn't been motivated by lust at some point in their life? As for stupidity, yes, some people are a lot more stupid than others, but that isn't a crime. It's certainly not a reason that one's life should be "completely ruined".

I think your point about you guys being an "occupational hazard" is a good one, but with Famous, it seems, at least from what's posted online, that he got mixed up in this because of his father's occupation. I mean, he was writing you about getting his father home right and not because he personally wanted money from you?

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Both Famous and his father tried to scam us, several different times. Famous and his dad worked from the same scamming email account. Again, both tried to scam us. Honestly, I believe Godspower IS a pastor. He is a scammer as well. We provide no special treatment for scamming pastors though. We are equal opportunity baiters. I don't want Jesse Jackson at my door waving his smug finger in my face. I am going to call Famous when this is done and tell him every reason that we did this to him. I will let him know that it is all because of his scamming. The same goes for his dad. I agree, it may not be 100% clear about what his whole part in this is. But he is a scammer and continues to send out scammer formats. And he did try to personally scam us.

Our point about Adamu and the fact that he was able to leave at any time... this is what I meant: Adamu had a lot of time to think about this. At any point, he did not have to go further. He could have said, "Screw it, Ndjamena is too rough. No way." Instead, he chose to go there. After that, he could have said, "Abeche is WAY too dangerous. I won't go there." Instead, his greed led him further. What else can I say for him? He kept making crappy choices. That's his deal. Those choices just happened to be chasing a bad thing.

I have to ask... don't you love the whole pizza, camel, smurf loving thing? Did that make you laugh? Just curious, because you obviously have some moral qualms. But, it is intersting you read the whole thing. And, you are writing on a level that is not the typical level we get from the do gooders that hate us.

Jojo

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I have to ask... don't you love the whole pizza, camel, smurf loving thing? Did that make you laugh?

I think it's fair to say that it would make me laugh -- if all the people involved were fake. I could laugh at the vanities of the Rev. Dover, if they weren't caught up in the misery of actual people. Dover is a funny character because he's fictional. But the rest of the folks aren't fictional, nor are the massive inequities that allow Americans to whine about their pizza delivery while there's still widespread malnutrition in the world. (And I include myself among the whiners -- I'm an ex-New Yorker, whining about pizza is one of our inborn talents). There's an old cliche about the world being a comedy to those who think and a tragedy to those who feel. I don't think it's that black and white, but you could maybe say that the feeling side of me found most of what I was reading sad and repulsive. But the thinking side of me may have laughed at the timeline: "I teach Scooby tricks". That was pretty good.

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We provide no special treatment for scamming pastors though. We are equal opportunity baiters.

No special treatment for scamming pastors -- but you do (you in the sense of the three of you) refer to the fact that Adamu thinks he's stealing from a church as if it made him particularly corrupt. Which it might, if the church were actually doing good works instead of sending their reverends gallivanting across the Atlantic in lederhosen.

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I agree, it may not be 100% clear about what his (Famous's) whole part in this is.

Shouldn't you be close to 100% clear before you ruin someone's life? I'm repeating myself a bit here but, really, you are taking on the role, not just of the cops, but of the whole system. You decide on guilt and you decide how far to try to take the punishment. If you are going to take on that kind of responsibility, you ought to be fairly certain that the person in question is really as bad as you think, and you ought to try not to confuse stupidity with culpability.

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At any point, he did not have to go further. He could have said, "Screw it, Ndjamena is too rough. No way." Instead, he chose to go there. After that, he could have said, "Abeche is WAY too dangerous. I won't go there." Instead, his greed led him further.

I'm never going to agree on this point -- but I'll let you do the disagreeing for me: as you said yourself, once Adamu got to Ndjamena: "getting back will be a problem . . . once they get to their desintation, getting them farther and farther away from their home land. . . he really doesn't have much choice but to keep chasing after us." and "My logic tells me that the guy has NO choice but to move in our direction. He's absolutely broke, stinky, hungry, etc.. and Lagos is nowhere near him. We, on the other hand, are only 320 Km to the NE. That sounds way easier." So, yes, he ultimately gets to decide, but the deck was rather stacked against him once he left Nigeria (as for leaving Nigeria, I will agree that that, at least, was his choice).

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it is intersting you read the whole thing. And, you are writing on a level that is not the typical level we get from the do gooders that hate us.

Well, at work I'm currently running an experiment where I basically have to flip a switch every 14 minutes, which leaves me more time than usual to read this kind of thing (14 minutes is a lot more suited to internet forums than Russian novels). I have found it fascinating I think precisely because I'm not someone who would send a typical hate mail -- though I can work on it, if you're not getting enough hate mail. I looked through the ethics stuff on the 419eater site and it seems to always come down to one side that says, well these people are poor and so can do what they want and one that says, these people are scum no matter what. I don't think anything is that simple. I don't think anyone can really hold the moral high ground for long. Horrible things happened to and continue to happen to Africa and I haven't the faintest idea what I would be like if I'd grown up in Lagos instead of the U.S. I hope that I wouldn't be fleecing old ladies out of their life savings, but who knows, maybe I would. I think it was in reading this that I really started to see what the phrase a "jury of one's peers" means. That you should get judged by people who have some idea of where you're coming from. But if you're guilty, you're guilty.

Anway, it has been uncharacteristic for me to take up a debate with strangers, but I was finding it frustrating to read only glowing reviews from people who loved what you did/do and bizarre rants from people who didn't. I hope I've at least made you think about a few things that you might not have otherwise. You can let Famous know that some dumb American stood up for him anyway.

Do-gooder XXXXXX

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Typically we don't give people who oppose us the time of day. The reason being, they usually just send us non-coherent hate mail. We get plenty of it and your mail is a very nice departure from that.

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but you do (you in the sense of the three of you) refer to the fact that Adamu thinks he's stealing from a church as if it made him particularly corrupt. Which it might, if the church were actually doing good works instead of sending their reverends gallivanting across the Atlantic in lederhosen.

I agree, the church is not real. However, the intent of the lad was no different. He thought it was real. And, I was possibly unclear in what I said about no "special" treatment. I only meant that we did not let Godspower, who is a proper pastor, slide because he was a pastor. In fact, we might actually treat him worse for that reason. He knows better.

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Shouldn't you be close to 100% clear before you ruin someone's life?

Again, my statement was unclear. I am 100% clear that Famous is a scammer. I meant to say that it is possible that we made his role unclear on the forums. He is a scammer. Both his father and Famous are scammers. I am 100% certain of this. I will be happy to share of preview of his fate with you, if you like. I presume you will not. Smile

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He's absolutely broke, stinky, hungry, etc.. and Lagos is nowhere near him. We, on the other hand, are only 320 Km to the NE. That sounds way easier." So, yes, he ultimately gets to decide, but the deck was rather stacked against him once he left Nigeria

He is broke, hungry, stupid, etc. However, he was still in it for the money. He was still led by greed. This is an excerpt from one of his emails to his friend back home (who is actually us) from when he was in Abeche. This is around the same time he is complaining about the whole situation.

WE HAVE A MAGA FROM UN THAT WANT TO OPEN CHURCH IN NIGERIA. HE INVITED US TO COME TO CHAD FOR A SITTING. WE HAVE MEET WITH HIM AND WE GIVE HIM A BILL OF 200,000USD. HE AGREE TO PAY US THAT IS WHY I ASK YOU OF THAT NAME YOU ARE USING IN WU IF IT IS WORKING

So, the whole time everything is going on, he still maintains that he has a victim who is a fool. He is completely into his scamming game. Yes, he is stredded in hash conditions. But, he still thinks he is pulling one over on the church. I think that this helps make my point a little better. Certainly the cards were stacked against him. However, he never lost his scamming face. In the midst of everything, he calls us a fool and brags about how he is scamming a church.

I understand people not agreeing with us. It's rough stuff. But I loathe the fact that people give excuses for them, because of their poverty. It's one thing not to like what we do. But, it is another thing to completely excuse them because of their poverty. Adamu, while he is an idiot, is part of a very successful gang of scammers. He is not all that bad off, trust me. His friend ND, had an income of probably $5k a month or more.

This is an excerpt from a Nigerian on the board you might find intersting (it's about Adamu):

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An average Nigerian is educated and by the standard of grammer I see in the scam emails,I think its just hemp smoking bus conductors on sabbatical having a go at english language.

I have to ask, what is it about Famous that makes you stand up for him? My brother-in-law, who followed the Chad bait everyday, went with me to the studio for the interview and laughed his arse off, finds pity in his heart for Famous. Remember, Famous is a scammer. He agreed to meet, in secret, with a girl who was 15 to have sex with her. He knew it was wrong, because he lied about it on several occasions.

Jojo

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Hey,

Here's my last ditch effort for Famous and a response to your (Jojo's that is) last e-mail:

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I have to ask, what is it about Famous that makes you stand up for him?

In addition to the answer I sent before -- there's one more thing that makes me stand up for him, and that's that he didn't send you the pictures for financial gain. In Adamu's case, taking just the first part of the story, I'll agree that he chose to go to Chad so that he could steal the money. So in that case, you were using his attempted crime against him. In Famous's case, sending the pictures had nothing to do with his scamming career. He sent them because he thought Anita was real and thought she was interested, so you're using something totally unrelated against him. I think that's the same reason people found the "dead mother" gambit to be so terrible -- because it was completely unrelated to the actions that you were trying to punish.

As for him lying several times about Anita: when you were 20 and the parents/friends of a person you were interested in asked you about them, did you ever say "yes, I cannot wait to screw her!"

Finally, in Famous's case, you have a rare opportunity. You can't tell someone, "if you keep scamming we'll trick you into going to Chad" -- but you could tell him that if he keeps scamming you'll do, well, whatever it is you're planning. I would like to know what it is. But then I'll just use the information to argue for him some more so maybe you shouldn't tell me.

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But I loathe the fact that people give excuses for them, because of their poverty. It's one thing not to like what we do. But, it is another thing to completely excuse them because of their poverty.

I don’t completely excuse the scammers because of their poverty (though I’m sure some people do), just like I don’t excuse a gang kid in a housing project because of his poverty. I wouldn’t have any trouble passing judgment in a legal sense. But I don’t think I can pass judgment in a moral sense, because I live in conditions that are so different. Am I not a thief because I’m a better person than they are or because I don’t need to be? Also, these people are living in a place where theft on a grand scale has gone on for centuries and continues to go on. And continues to benefit us. I am sure that my mutual funds own shares of oil companies that have screwed Nigeria over to a degree that every scammer in the world couldn't do if they all got together and worked on it for a hundred years.

Here’s an analogy: I used to teach English in one of the most polluted cities in China , therefore one of the most polluted cities in the world. It was liking walking into a text book description of the industrial revolution. You’d wash your hair and it would be frothy with particulates. This isn’t good for the people there and it’s not good for the future of the global climate. As George Bush would say “I’m um . . . against that.” But, it drove me crazy to hear Americans say things like, “well, they’re just not as enlightened about the environment as we are.” It drives me crazy now when our government essentially says the same thing. Why? Because those factories are mainly producing crap for us to consume. We didn’t get enlightened about the environment, we just shipped the problem elsewhere and now we, the most wasteful people on the planet, look down on the places we exported the problem to and say that we are more enlightened and that they need to stop trying to attain the type of lives we have here and sacrifice to fix the problem, while somehow keeping all the crap we want to buy (including Smurfs I would imagine) cheap. So, I’m all for cleaning up these factories, but I’m not all for (1) acting like we’re morally superior or (2) ignoring our own responsibility in the situation.

That’s kind of how I look at the situation in regards to these scams. Stealing from people is wrong. It’s wrong here, it’s wrong there, it’s wrong everywhere. But, I can’t feel morally superior, because I know that so much of the poverty in that part of the world was caused by the creation of wealth in this part of the world. I don’t think the history of Africa means that people there should be allowed to steal as much as they want whenever they want. But I can’t see it as simply as “look, he’s stealing from a church,” because that church could only exist in a world where so much of the wealth is concentrated in such a small space. You’ve made Dover into this comically wasteful American – so much so that I kind of want to steal from him. I don't have a problem with wasting these people's time or getting their fake accounts shut down or that kind of thing, but it's disheartening to read the many forum comments related either to the possibility that someone will get killed or to how immoral "those" people are compared to us.

So, let me know what's up with Famous. Have I persuaded you at all? Even one tiny bit?

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I will forward over to you what Famous is going to endure. It's not complete, but you will get the picture. I must mention though, it is not safe for opening around anyone.

Your points are very vaild. And, to some extent, they make me think. I will agree that they actually make a lot of sense. However, my disdain for this kind of behaviour far outweighs any pity that I have on him.

Aside from the scam format that he sent out, I sent him an "accidental" email from one scammer to another, about a deaf man who is getting ready to send the money. Famous quickly pretends to be the original recipient of the email. This is his response:

HO..Boy i know the maga he dor pay me 75,000usd befor but i dor lost he number, the email when you give nor dey go the deaf get money he dey pay like bank. you nor want take block from the maga.

send the number and the real email address togther with his information.
i dey wiat
one love

Basically, what he is saying among that garbage, is that he has worked with the deaf man before and scammed him out of $75,000 (lies). Get the maga (fool) to pay you like a bank (basically, saying that this guy will keep handing out cash, probably speaking like this because the guy has a disability). He says not to take "sh*t" from the fool either. This is probably something I should post on the forum, to let people see the real Famous. That is something that is very hard to get across. We deal with these guys directly. We don't post everything, because that would make the thread way too long. But we bait these guys from several different places before we really do anything to them, to ensure that they are the scum we suspect. In fact, right now, I have a guy that I planned on sending to Karachi, Pakistan. However, only a few emails in I had a bad feeling about it. I tried to confirm if he was a scammer. He was not, so, I cut him loose.

The dead mother thing... I am glad you pointed that out. That is the only really coherent argument I have heard for that. Most people just say, "It makes me feel like crap." Your argument actually meant something. However, my approach is to make their lives miserable. Adamu was out there, suffering because of his greed. My goal is to actually make that experience as miserable as possible. As for the Famous thing, as I said, we are going to give him a call and let him know exactly why all of this is going on.

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But I don't think I can pass judgment in a moral sense, because I live in conditions that are so different. Am I not a thief because I'm a better person than they are or because I don't need to be?

All three of us come from very different backgrounds. Portion of this deleted for personal reasons. I do feel morally superior to these people. There are plenty of people in Nigeria who don't scam. They are morally superior to their scamming counterparts. Adamu and Famous are both University educated. Famous has enough money to own a digital camera, a laptop and his own network in his house. He also has the money to chase tail around the country and across borders.

SECTION DELETED BY JOJO BECAUSE OF JOJO'S POLITICAL RANTS

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But, I can't feel morally superior, because I know that so much of the poverty in that part of the world was caused by the creation of wealth in this part of the world.

I just don't subscribe to the whole guilt thing. Wrong is wrong. I don't give a rat's arse if the person is in the most destitute of situations. There are certain absolute truths in this world. Stealing is wrong, that's one of them. I would treat those greedy pricks at the top of AIG the same way, if they were dumb enough to fall for my baits. I hate theft, in any fashion. I don't care how poor they are. That doesn't excuse it. They are not scamming to eat. They are scamming to become wealthy. That is fact. I have dealt with enough of them to know why they scam. And I have also dealt with enough of them to know how they dress, the cars they drive, etc. Don't believe the whole "poor Nigerian" thing that these people like you to believe. Sure, lots of them are poor. But I can't say that I have ever worked on one that is destitute. Most wear designer clothes. For that, I have no sympathy.

Jojo

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 pm

Her best one, to both Prof and me:

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Despite being fairly certain that I have no chance of persuading you to back off young Mr. Famous, I will give it a shot.

To begin with, I'm not sure exactly what Famous has done to merit "the worst thing [you] have EVER done to a lad. EVER. (emphasis JoJo's)." Yes, I know, he's a scammer, but has he, specifically, done something to merit this particular fate? Or is it just that he was stupid enough to send the pictures? Or is he the scapegoat for guys you've dealt with in the past who weren't as gullible? i.e. I am back to my question about true guilt vs. expediency.

Or, is Famous being set upon so fiercely because he's pursuing Anita? If that's the case, then I think there's several points in his favor. To begin with, it's my understanding that Famous was in touch with you because his partially blind father, who was in "tchad . . . a war zone close to danfure in sudan", needed him to read his e-mail for him. You decided to talk to Famous as Anita and see if she could "get in the pants of Famous."
In other words, Famous wasn't out trolling sites frequented by teenage girls to see if he could lure one to Africa to be his "Virgin Bride"; he was trying to help his father get back from Chad when a particularly precocious teenage girl started hitting on him. I think, if what I've learned from cop shows is correct, that this is the very definition of entrapment -- getting someone to commit a crime that they weren't intending to commit before you suggested it.

As to Anita, she may be underage in the U.S. and Famous may think she's underage there (he does say that the "the law say 18"), but from what I can find online, 16 is the age of consent in Ghana, so she's actually "legal" and his pursuit of her isn't a crime.

I've only seen the snippets of conversation between Famous and Anita that have been posted, but, at least in those snippets, Famous seems to treat Anita pretty well. He tells her that her parents "wnt d best 4u" and that she should "do w t they say always". He criticizes Phystme for being rude to her. He tells her wants her to write to his mother. None of these statements seem like they come from a guy who has ill intentions towards her. Most importantly, when she's first missing he "call(s) the airport authority and US EMBBASEY IN TOGO" to try to find her. When he thinks she's been kidnapped, he actually looks for her and is willing to deal with the kidnapper to get her back. Yes, he's motivated mostly by sex -- but then, are you going to tell me that you've never done anything that was motivated by sex? If so, I will not believe you, as you are (1) alive and (2) male, thus the probability that you have never done something foolish in pursuit of getting laid is less than zero.

I don't know what exactly you have planned for Famous, but since it has been variously described as something that will cause him to be "humiliated by his friends and his family" and something that will "ruin his entire life with his family," I would ask that you consider those friends and family. Do they not qualify as innocent third parties? Does Famous's mother deserve whatever it is that you have planned? His sister? The rest of his family? Are they all scammers? Are they all guilty? Could you possibly ever know? If what's going to happen to him is also going to affect the people with whom he has his closest relationships, then how can it possibly be squared with an ethic that says you aren't supposed to hurt "ITP"s."

Finally, Famous is 20. He's not a child, but he is young. I once told my father, in regards to something stupid I had done, that I "was just so immature", to which he replied that I had had the "disadvantage of being very young." Lots of people do lots of stupid things when they're young. Most of the time, the consequences pass them by. Most of the time, the consequences should pass them by. Is there really a good reason that they should land so heavily on this foolish 20 year old? And, if I follow, his family and his friends?

Again, I imagine that the odds of you deciding to change your mind about Famous are exceedingly low, but I hope you'll at least consider it. And I'll be interested in your response either way.

I will soon post my reply.

EDIT: My response:

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You have some great points there. This is, by far your best email.

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Yes, I know, he's a scammer, but has he, specifically, done something to merit this particular fate?

Well, I did show you the email that he wrote to the guy he thought was deaf earlier. That is one of the things that really gets my goat. I specifically asked Famous about 419 scams when chatting to him with Anita. He lied about it. Said he was not involved. Even put on a front to “warn” her about the Charles Soludos. He proceeded to talk crap about the scammers and how awful they were. Sounds a little hypocritical and manipulative for my likings.

Famous is really being targeted because he is a scammer. The fact that he manipulates Anita is a little more fuel. But it’s mostly just scamming. Famous did contact the church with a scam email though, separate from his father.

I will agree, Famous genuinely likes Anita. But, I don’t care. My motivation is to punish these guys, however I can, for their scamming. Sure, it is somewhat unrelated. But, the whole thing started because he and his father (who seem to scam together) contacted the church with a scam email. We responded to that scam email with our church script. From that point on, we went with our normal script. Both of them were involved. Both were scamming. I will say though, I think that Godspower was going to actually start the church. However, he is a scammer and scammers get punished. Their initial contact with the church was via a scam email. So, I deduct, they would have scammed a church. I believe we wasted a good deal of their time with this. Famous spent his time chatting with Anita rather than scamming.

Quote:

but then, are you going to tell me that you've never done anything that was motivated by sex? If so, I will not believe you, as you are (1) alive and (2) male, thus the probability that you have never done something foolish in pursuit of getting laid is less than zero.

I will have you know that I am the embodiment of self control. Just ask anyone on the forum of my squeaky clean record. They will tell you I am a gentleman of sorts.

I don't know what exactly you have planned for Famous, but since it has been variously described as something that will cause him to be "humiliated by his friends and his family" and something that will "ruin his entire life with his family," I would ask that you consider those friends and family

This is by far the best argument I have seen. Very nice. I won’t use the words “collateral damage” because that makes me look like a jerk. However, I am sure that his family will just begin to ignore him. They will probably shun him for being the twat that he is. The one shining hope he has… his dad knows that the church is not exactly the shining star it claims to be. So, I suspect, that after some dust settles, that the father will be able to say, “These church people are liars and my son is no homosexual.”

I am only slightly older than Famous. I am not as stupid as him. As only a small handful of people have naked pics of me and my best (male) friend. I say Famous just had an unlucky day when he sent out that email. It sucks when lads find us. It just boils down to that. We have no tolerance for them. None. I don’t think Famous gets a free ride because of his age. If he is old enough to be a criminal, he is old enough to deal with us. As I said, occupational hazards.

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"tchad . . . a war zone close to danfure in sudan",

Sorry, but something about that line just cracks me up. The way it is written, it just makes me laugh.

Just out of curiosity, have you heard this? http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134089&highlight=oscar That’s Famous. Now, you feel like you know him. He sounds like a real ball of energy, no?

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 pm

I'm speaking for only myself here.

How many times have we seen the lives of politicians, entertainers, regular working folks and even "Girls Gone Wild" ruined by posing for pictures or getting themselves involved in immoral activities, and being exposed.
Why should "Famous" be spared?

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:37 pm

So, is the crux of her argument that we're assigning guilt by association on these people; That we can't be sure they have ruined anybody lives yet and therefore should assume they have not...or will not?

Here is how I see it: Anyone who is willing to engage in initiating a scam is going to be considered a valid target by me for any level of baiting I can engage that person in. My goal really is to permanently end that individual's ability to scam innocent people. If there was a way to do this short of harming the lad, I am more than willing to consider it. But at the end of the day, lads who return from safari continue to do what they do. That is fact.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Posts: 38

Wow, that's a lot of words for not too much content. Shocked

AFAIKT, she's asking "who made you judge, jury, and executioner?" and "does his punishment fit the crime?"

Baiters, in my mind, got the job because nobody else is doing it. I'm a noob, but it seems that it's not too hard to actually ID the scammers. Give that info to the Nigerian police and see what happens. [cue crickets]

That's right, nada. They have neither the resources nor the motivation to arrest and prosecute scammers. In a country with an active war going on 419 schemes bilking fools half way across the world are way down on the priority list. Like, somewhere after "should I shave today?" So, the job falls to someone who cares and has the resources to pursue the job.

As for the second question: We used to hang horse thieves here in the US not too long ago. There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to punishment. Hers is did he do something bad enough to warrant this punishment? Unfortunately, that school of thought does nothing to prevent further harm to society. He scams $10k, he gets a year in jail (not that Nigerian jails are pleasant) then gets out and goes right back to scamming. Mine is, "take out the trash." Anyone that preys on others less able than themselves is not someone we need in society. Hang 'em high. Make the punishment so terrible that not only is the original scammer unable/unwilling to continue his activities but those around him are scared straight as well.

Now look who's long winded. Obviously the finer points can be debated ad nauseum, but the basic premise is sound. One look at our judicial system now speaks volumes.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:46 pm

Thank you so much for sharing this with us. She raises several very valid points and I can see where she is coming from. That said, I still disagree with her which was very surprising to me. I'm usually a "bleeding-heart do-gooder" and actually quite shocked by my own visceral reaction to the scammers.
Reading this fascinating discussion on the moral implications of scam baiting has made things very clear in my mind. To say that I don't care what happens to Famous in the future is far from the truth. I actually want him to suffer the consequences of his actions. I want him to be publicly humiliated. I want him to be an example of what can happen when you try to scam. Somewhere on the forum (whether in this thread or somewhere else) I read an email where a lad says that roughly 3% of the Nigerian population or 4.2 million people are involved with these scams (forgive me if my numbers are wrong, but this is what seems to have stuck in my brain). There is no way for you/us to engage all those lads and keep them from doing this. By just slapping their wrist and telling them they've done wrong you'll only prevent that one person from scamming again - and even that is not a guarantee. But by setting an example you might be able to indirectly convince other potential scammers to quit the game.
So, with the utmost respect to the TAL listener, I have to disagree.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:08 pm

Betty Hash wrote:

Wow, that's a lot of words for not too much content. Shocked

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? There are some interesting points being raised in the exchanges between the guys and this woman, and some legitimate concerns raised. Each has been prepared to concede the force of the other's arguments, and has sought to counter them politely and without heat. Would that some of the earlier debate on this thread showed the same courtesy. It also ill behoves us to start criticising someone who is not here to defend herself, yet has consented to her emails being shared with us. Evil or Very Mad

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:21 pm

@ Eight

Very well said. I had virtually given up on this thread a few pages back due to the circular route it had taken, but that email conversation makes for a refreshing change.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Posts: 38

Eight wrote:

Full requote of Eight's post snipped, we can see it Smile

-RC

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh or critical. I just felt like there was a lot of verbiage there that boiled down to a few relatively simple points. Not, "lots of words with no point." Which, now that I reread it, it could be taken as.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:10 am

I have really restrained myself from posting in this thread for various reasons, but I would like to point out one thing to the folks that are posting arguments about baiters going too far. Read some of the posts on scamwarners.com. See and feel the pain and suffering these dirtbag scammers have caused good (yet gullible) human beings. Do they care that someone is sending them their money needed to buy medication to let them live another week? Not just no, but HELL no! Do they care that grandpa down the block is being evicted from his house, and has nothing left of his meager retirement income? No. These people (the scammers) have zero morals. They would steal the last dime from their dying mother. I, for one will never feel the least bit sorry for the scammers. If I decided that poking needles in my eyes for one dollar a poke, would you feel sorry for me when I went blind? THE SCAMMERS MAKE A CHOICE. Nobody is standing over them with a loaded gun forcing them to scam.

If I murder someone, I can reasonably expect to spend the rest of my natural life in prison. By the same token, if I scam someone out of their life savings, I should reasonable expect that I will pay the consequences when I get caught. Understand that we bait to somehow try to tip the scales of justice toward the morally right way of doing things.

If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:35 am

The problem with asking "does his punishment fit the crime?" is that we're not here to punishp the scammers. No, we do what we do to interrupt or stop the scammers. We may believe they deserve the grief we inflict upon them, but deserves is secondary to necessity.

Let's assume one does set a limit on how far he/she will go in baiting scammers. Who benefits from this limit? Not the scam victims. Nope, the only one who benefits is the scammer him/herself.

I think when you advocate against aggressive scambaiting, you are saying that a scammer's well-being is more important than protecting victims against his/her scams. You have every right to dictate how much or how little you contribute to scambaiting. All I am saying is that the scammer's well-being should not dictate that.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:48 am

Quote:

Let's assume one does set a limit on how far he/she will go in baiting scammers.

We have all (jojo, YW, myself) said that we feel it's important for each particular baiter to bait within their own ethical boundaries. We certainly do, and I can't recall one sentence anywhere written by any of us that suggested anyone else should perform baits in the fashion that we do. The thing is, we don't push our ethics on anyone at all in their baits, but this ONE bait has had something like 5 ethics debates surrounding it.

I'm not in any way suggesting you all shouldn't continue your discussion, as I am aware that there is always an influx of new members, and I think it's important for them to try to find their own boundaries. I'm just always a bit shocked when these threads run their course because it always seems like the side that is against is the one pushing their beliefs/ethics on the other. I have yet to see a thread started by a baiter telling straight baiters (or whatever) that they need to be harsher to their lads. I can certainly say that I don't give a rat's ass how any of you run your baits.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:57 am

I concur with the Prof above. As far as I recall, it has always been said, "Bait in a way that fits your ethics, morals and conscience." I don't understand when people don't grasp that. Just as no lads are forced to do what they do, no Baiters are forced to bait in any way.

That is true of Baiters who have Mentors too.

ALL conversations I have had with other Mentors indicate that we (as a group of individuals) encourage new Baiters to find their own comfort level. This includes the type of bait and the modality used by the baiter.

I get to determine my own comfort level and participation level AND the threads I post in or read. I have discovered that my computer even has a way of being turned off (even if it is the "start" button Wink

).

I enjoy it when people seek information from the members of this forum. I get really confused when people stop seeking information and appear to be stirring a pot of their own making.

I believe that such situations are responded to because MANY people look in and the older members don't want the "lookers" to get an impression that is not true because some accusation or uninformed comments are not responded to by older members who help set the pace here.

I just had to say something. Cool

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:51 am

Having started a few ethics threads myself and seen them deteriorate into black and white, I have to say that that lady's arguments were both well presented and thoughtful and, as has been said, each side gave some ground on some points.

The impression I got though was that she was arguing the impending punishment did not fit the crime.

The response that he is a scammer is a bit like saying there is the death penalty for murder, so every murderer should be put to death, whether it be a crime passionelle or a particularly sadistic murder; in fact it is acknowledged in murder that some are not as bad as others (1st, 2nd degree etc). I believe her argument was that you are reserving the worst possible sentence for what is pretty clearly not the worst possible scammer.

Indeed some baiters have got fatigue and argued that it is the most gullible rather than the most evil, that get tatooed, safaried etc, and the point about culpability and expedience is well made imo.

Perhaps you could tone his punishment down a notch and save the intended punishment for someone more deserving - and if, as you just read that, you thought 'no-one else would be so stupid as to send such pictures' then maybe you have your answer as to the whole expedience/culpability bit. (I presume the photos are to be used to humiliate him)

Those who know, know I do my bit in trying to ruin the scammers, and I'd be the first to offer up a list of scammers I'd like to see shouting profanities about Mohammed in the middle of Mecca in Haj week. I'd also sit and laugh as they got beaten to death - there are some truly deserving scammers out there.

So, does the intended punishment fit the crime? I don't know, because I know little or nothing about either, but I hope the baiters are comfortable it does. Personally, if I was in his shoes and those photos were shown to my circle of family and friends, I'd likely kill myself.

Quote:

As far as I recall, it has always been said, "Bait in a way that fits your ethics, morals and conscience

No, there are rules here - no cash baiting, no cracking email accounts, no ITPs, nothing illegal etc. If I said cracking into an email box to cash bait and then blackmail an innocent person did not register a blip on my moral radar, I'd still be beaten with a large stick for breaking 4 rules.

Quote:

Just as no lads are forced to do what they do, no Baiters are forced to bait in any way

.. and no victims are forced to hand over any money. So what's your point? It's all about manipulation rather than force. On both sides.

All that being said, I think ethics threads are a sign of a healthy forum, even though some people are tired of having the same argument for the hundredth time. It's like being a parent - if you don't agonise over whether you are a good parent at one point or another, there's a good chance you're not. Ethics threads are the site's moral compass.

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 18 Sep 2008 Posts: 16

Quote:

Well, at work I'm currently running an experiment where I basically have to flip a switch every 14 minutes, which leaves me more time than usual to read this kind of thing (14 minutes is a lot more suited to internet forums than Russian novels).

Wow. Can I just say that someone someone needs to hire this person to do more than switch-flipping?! Those are some persuasive, cogent arguments.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:25 am

jojobean wrote:

I will have you know that I am the embodiment of self control. Just ask anyone on the forum of my squeaky clean record. They will tell you I am a gentleman of sorts.

Is this some sort of sick joke?
Or are you baiting people who contact you with ethics questions now?

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:41 pm

Slightly- DOWN BOY!

I would like to point out again the fact that Famous was clearly going to try to scam a deaf man out of his savings.

It was suggested to me yesterday that I put a poll up about the whole Famous deal. I like that idea. However, we will probably do what we want. But, it would be intersting to see what you guys think.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:45 pm

^^^^^

Quote:

However, we will probably do what we want. But, it would be intersting to see what you guys think.

Roast him on a slow spit.

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:55 pm

@ Tuco. Ewww, I am quite sure that would not smell very good. Wink

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