Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of the Chad Bait

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** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Hey, I'm a new forum member, and I, naturally, found out about this forum from the This American Life Podcast, which I listen to every week ( and hope you guys will start to, also, it's a really amazing show), and I found the scambaiting topic fabulously interesting, on many different levels.

I want to start things off by saying that I am not a lad hugger. I do not feel sympathy for any of these scammers who you guys bait, I found the stories you guys and Ira told on TAL to be hilarious, and I have infact done an small ( and extremely amateur, by your standards) bait with a Nigeria a few years ago. However, have no illusions about why I think these stories were funny. I think they are funny, because I take pleasure when people fall victim to their own greed, stupidity, and nativity. I think when stupid people do stupid things, they deserve what they get. If this Adamu was too stupid to know he was being baited, well then, oh well and LOL at you. Here's the thing.. I also feel no pity or sympathy for the people these Nigerian's scam. If you are so naive, so stupid, so greedy to give someone you don't know, haven't met, and your only contact with is via email, ten's of thousands of dollars, then LOL @ you. I have zero sympathy for the victims of these scammers, because I think these victims are essentially fools.

So it is from this extremely crass and amoral view point, I viewed this piece on TAL. Ira, it sounded to me, found it bizarre and disturbing that you guys took pleasure in this baiting. And when confronted by the fact that Ira plainly didn't think it was funny, you guys brought out examples of different scams, and said things like " well, if you only knew these guys like we did, you'd think it was hilarious" and did all these bizarre mental games to try and justify this plain fact.... you guys do this, all of you ,because you are sadists... you take pleasure in the suffering of others.. you think it's funny to hurt these scammers. You are able to justify it to yourselfs, because you pick targets you think "deserve" it, because they are theives.. but it's really just a mental game you play with your self. The real reason you do it, is you like to hurt people, and all these things you tell yourself to make it okay, is just really to avoid that fact. And this was why Ira found it so disturbing, because you all were laughing at something he found to be extremely cruel.

I'm sure the scammers have all kinds of mental tricks they play on themselves to justify their actions, telling themselves that we are decadent americans, that no one who can afford to send 80k is going to starve, that america is the great satan and we deserve, and on and on and on... It's amazing the lies a human mind can come up with to justify their own actions.

It was TAL's thesis, and one I mostly happen to agree with, that you and the scammers do exactly the same thing, that there is no real moral separation between your actions and the scammers.

Except there is one major and obvious difference. The scammers do it for actual material gain. They do it with a very specific purpose in mind. They do it to get money. They do it to earn a living. You guys don't even have that direct, literal gain. The only reason you guys do it, is because you take pleasure in doing it. The only gain you get, is the laughter from the distressing emails you recieve from these scammers. You can tell yourself you do it for vengeance ( but how many of you have actually been scammed?).. but the real reason you do it, is because it gives you pleasure, it gives you entertainment.

You use the exact, same means the scammers to to con people, you use lying, conning and deceit, only the gains are different. And no matter what these people you con, lie to and deceive have done, there is no way you can claim any kind of moral high ground.

Now listen, I know what I said may come across as harsh, and that I'm defending the lads or something, and I'm really not. I'm just saying that many of you need to stop lying to yourselves, and should drop any pretense of morality. When you purposefully lie, deceive and con someone into going into a war zone, take pleasure in his suffering, and openly hope that they die there, you can no longer take the moral high ground. You have become what you hate, only you don't have the 80k to show for it.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:57 am

^^ So, should we push for the money? 80k is nothing to sneeze at.

Edit: Nice first post, by the way. Thumbs up

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Professor So And So wrote:

^^ So, should we push for the money? 80k is nothing to sneeze at.

Edit: Nice first post, by the way. Thumbs up

I've actually read on paulp's blog a long time ago (http://extempore.livejournal.com/), about people who got Nigerians to send THEM money, which I thought was the best thing I heard w/r/t the nigerian scam, until today.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:08 am

Quote:

you think it's funny to hurt these scammers.

I really don't think any of us would disagree with you there. We had a great time executing this particular bait (and many others), because of the simple fact that we really DO hate these scumbags. Knowing myself and the other guys to the extent that I do, I feel I can honestly say that we're not "mean" people, but yes, we obviously have sadistic tendencies that allow us to do such things as bait these guys into a volatile region with no food/money/clothes, and feel no remorse at all.

At the end of the day, the truth is that the bait went exactly as we planned it, day by day. Our full intention at the beginning of scouting for a TWAT for this trip was to execute a massively complex bait at the center of hash conditions, and keep it going as long as possible.

It worked well.

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Mod Snip - No need to fully quote the previous posts....^^^^ - Simba

I just find it very interesting that your hatred allows you guys to act in the same manner, and use the same tactics as the people you hate, and that you all are okay with it. I guess it's just the same old song that's been going on for thousands of years... I just think this is a delightfully post-modern version of the IRA-Ulster circle of hatred.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:29 am

@DirtMcGirt - I get the impression that you quite fancy yourself as a bit of a baiter.

Why not read the stickies and get yourself a mentor...... Wink

** SUSPENDED ** Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 42

Simba wrote:

Why not read the stickies and get yourself a mentor...... Wink

I'm much to lazy for all that.. I'll just leech of the work of others for my schadenfreude God bless the free rider principal

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:37 am

DirtMcGirt wrote:

I'm much to lazy for all that..

That's a prerequisite for being an effective baiter. We make lads do all the work.

Welcome to Eater. Wink

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:45 am

Dirt wrote:

and use the same tactics as the people you hate

Windypops wrote:

We make lads do all the work.

Yep. Sounds about right. Wink

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:33 am

^^^ Yep. What other way is there to bait?
Without resorting to lies and deceit, there would be no baiting. That's it's whole raison d'etre.

But, DirtMcGirt , to say we can't claim the moral high ground is completely and utterly wrong.

We are not the ones stealing innocent people's money.
We are not the ones making innocent people's lives hell.

Sadist? Maybe in some cases. There really aren't that many depths I won't plumb to screw a lad. But never, ever forget, that these are lads we are talking about. They deserve everything we give them and more. You may skirt around that and see it as a cop out statement but I assure you, instead of being lazy and making assumptions, try actually looking at the picture in detail and then see if I've twisted the truth or used mere word-play.

But truth be told. If I were a real sadist I would be putting the knowledge I gained here at Eater into destroying innocent peoples' lives, just like the lads do. And again, there's that moral high ground: look around and you'll probably find dozens of people on this forum who would be able to retire on illicit gains they would make if they ever turned their hands to acting like lads.

Analysing baiters is all well and good but you need to understand a whole hell of a lot more about who we deal with before you can make a proper critical assessment. Posting here that you think we do this just to hurt other people is ignorant when you obviously know so little about baiting and so little about scammers. I also think it rather assuming of you to make all encompassing statements that we all "bait for pleasure". You don't know each person here personally, so your opinion doesn't really count for much when making that statement - it's a generalisation and a stab in the dark. For myself, pleasure isn't the main reason I bait - it is merely a by-product. I bait more out of desperation and the hope that by hitting a lad as hard as possible, I may be able to save an innocent person from having their life destroyed. If I can save just one innocent person, I'd run a bulldozer into a dozen lads to do it.

Does that sound immoral to you? Maybe it does. But like I said, learn who we're really dealing with and then come back and tell us we don't hold the high ground.

ediited for spelling

Baiting Guru Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 11857 Location: UK

For further reading on victims who were assaulted, robbed, kidnapped and murdered by scammers, as well as many victim news stories, see my site here:

http://www.scam-info-links.info/scam_victim_news.html

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:49 am

DirtMcGirt wrote:

I have zero sympathy for the victims of these scammers, because I think these victims are essentially fools.

<snip>

The only reason you guys do it, is because you take pleasure in doing it. The only gain you get, is the laughter from the distressing emails you recieve from these scammers.

The longer you're here the more apparent it will become to you that the longtime members of this site are much more about protecting victims and shining light on this type of crime than they are baiting to get funny pictures, wooden carvings or safaris. JJ, YW, and Prof did this broadcast not to pound their chest and draw attention to themselves, but they did this to bring to light this type of crime. If they opened the eyes of one potential victim, or brought in one new baiter to this site, it was worth it. You will also learn that, as said countless times before (even in this thread), the victims are not fools.

It may appear we only do it for our own personal satisfaction but that's simply not true.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:55 am

Professor So And So wrote:

One thing I can say is that if it was at all possible, we would have made it worse for them. We ran out of cards to play. If it were up to us, they'd still be there (or in Khatoum).

I can think of at least one thing you could have done to put those lads in more danger. You could have succeeded in getting them arrested. A West African prison would make the Darfur border look like a spa.

Would it be immoral to expose scammers to the dangers of brutal police and prison?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:20 pm

DirtMcGirt wrote:

I have zero sympathy for the victims of these scammers, because I think these victims are essentially fools.

I recently came across a scammer who was trawling a Lost Pets forum and mass-mailing everyone on there.
Below are the emails sent to a genuine victim from a scammer - the victim herself gave them to me. She was a young kid who had lost her dog and advertised the fact on the net, hoping that someone would find it and return it to her. I have not posted the victim's emails because of our ITP rule and I have changed the dog's name.

Scammer to Victim

Quote:

Hello....
My name is Dennis Cranston..I live around you and i just want to let you know that your pets with me I am a litttle curious and just want you to know that it does not make me happy especiallly when I am losing a peti found and been hoping to sell since I found it as I am broke and need to get some bills paid.
I am willing to let go and let you have your pet back but on one condition....I will be happy and you would not be heart broken anymore and I would be happy for not wasting my time and money for helping someone find a precious thing.
Email me [email protected] and lets see where it goes from there...
Hope to hear from you soon.......

The little girl replied back describing her dog and saying how she was so happy that he had been found. Please could she have him back.

Scammer replied

Quote:

Yes I this is exactly the dog i have with me.Let me know what my reward is and upon getting the reward i will bring your pet back to you.

The little girl replied that she could only afford $100.

Scammer replied

Quote:

$100 is nothing but peanut to me.....just wanted to make you feel sorry for allowing your pet to get lost..
let me know when you are ready or.....

The little girl then sent a heart rendering plea saying that if he wouldn't give her dog back, please could he look after him. She likes long walks and just wants to be loved. Like I said, I can't post her reply, but it was heart-breaking.

Scammer replied

Quote:

You don't deserve to have spot back because you dont care about her..you had her for having sake i guess..you are not a good friend to spot she will be safe with me here and when I am fed up with her I would sell her to a friend who loves her so much for a toking of $300 bucks. If you love spot so much you would be willing to give to whatever you want to have her back.YOU ARE WICKED AND YOU WILL NEVER GET HER BACK SHE WILL BE HAPPY HERE.......I WISH SHE COULD TALK...

It was then that I came across the victim.
Tell me DirtMcGirt: is this little girl a fool? is she greedy? Does she not deserve your sympathy?

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:32 pm

^^^^

This is the most excellent (or sad...) example I have ever seen.

May I use it when someone is against me when I talk about scambaiting?
It's so powerful to show how low those scumbags can be Evil or Very Mad

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:52 pm

@DirtMcGirt

A while ago there was somebody that got scammed by a job scammer out of money she could ill afford for a job that didn't exist. She wanted to work as an au pair. She joined this forum seeking solace and advice which we duly gave her, as well as baiting the lad as a bit of a payback.

All she wanted was a job and better life in the west and to send money home to her family in Asia. Was she a fool? Was she greedy? No. She was ostracized by her family and friends who she had borrowed money from. That is why I do what I do. Take off your moral goggles and join the real world.

[Edited for grammar]

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:06 pm

DirtMcGirt wrote:

you guys do this, all of you ,because you are sadists... you take pleasure in the suffering of others.. you think it's funny to hurt these scammers. You are able to justify it to yourselfs, because you pick targets you think "deserve" it, because they are theives.. but it's really just a mental game you play with your self. The real reason you do it, is you like to hurt people, and all these things you tell yourself to make it okay, is just really to avoid that fact. And this was why Ira found it so disturbing, because you all were laughing at something he found to be extremely cruel.

You are speaking about us in terms in with which you are not familiar. In fact, the real reason this is done, is to waste their time. Does it become a game with them? Absolutely. However, we obviously don't just do this because we are sadists. If that were the case, as someone else said, we would be using our skills to profit for ourselves.

Think of it this way... Scammers can be pretty successful. They can make a lot of money. We can "scam" the scammers. Therefore, by the transitive property, we could scam victims, FAR better than any scammer could. So why, if we were truly conscienceless sadists, would we bother doing this to scammers and not profiting at all? That makes no sense.

Nurse Nasty wrote:

Quote:

We respect your opinions Jade.

I don't. Because they are misinformed and wrong. And yes, opinions can be wrong.

followthesun wrote:

Quote:

But what makes you think you're any better? You not stealing money, but you are putting some people in extremely dangerous situations, starving them, playing with their emotions, really hitting below the belt. Honestly, what if someone thought you were a jerk and did that to you? Do you think suffered enough yet?

-Jade

As others said, how did we put them in that danger? As others stated, was it not their greed that led them there? Their hate filled, selfish greed? At any point, these lads could have said, "I have had enough" and just stopped emailing us. Instead, they decided to stay, with hopes that they could scam their church. IN FACT, while all of this was going on, they were writing to who they thought was their family (it was actually us) BRAGGING about their stupid victim who they are about to scam out of $200k. So, during all of this, while the poor scammers are stuck sleeping outside and too poor to eat, they still have enough money to write back home and brag about their foolish victim.

followthesun wrote:

Quote:

Again, I understand that this nigerian man is not a ethical man... but aren't YW, Jojo, and Prof. being the same kind of scammers?

Please explain how we are the same kind of scammers. I'll provide some questions to help guide you:

1. Do we profit from this (other than entertainment)?
2. Do we hurt innocent people?
3. Do we force ANYONE to do something that they haven't chosen to do?
4. Do we help stop them, if only for a brief time, from scamming actual victims?

Answer those for me, then PLEASE get back to me with a more accurate description of why we are just like them.

These were all such serious posts, I had to point this out:

DirtMcGirt wrote:

I think they are funny, because I take pleasure when people fall victim to their own greed, stupidity, and nativity.

Their own greed and nativity. That's what gets me so pissed off, bringing nativity into the whole equation.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:16 pm

A point about the radio show.

I think a lot of people found it distasteful that the scammer was told his mother had died. Most of the critisism levelled against this bait rests on that particular modality but I'd like to give some perspective on it.

It occured to me in a discussion with Prof SoandSo that I came across a similar situation a year ago when I was baiting a Nigerian lad in Burkhino Fasso as another lad.

I created another character who was a doctor in Lagos and she emailed the lad telling him that his wife had died. The lad was understandably upset and phoned home the next day. When he found out that she was alive, he emailed my lad character and told him what he thought of him. He blamed him as the sender of the email (in this he was correct) and told him to keep away from his family.
So I emailed back and told him that he had 3 days to get out of Burkhino Fasso, return to Nigeria, give up scamming and get a proper job or I would cut his wife and kid's throats whilst they were sleeping.

Bear in mind that this lad totally believed that I knew where his family were and that I was capable of carrying out my threat.

He didn't budge. He stayed in Burkhino Fasso and carried on scamming.

To these people, life is cheap. Even their families'. Is that a generalisation? Maybe, but it's the norm in my experience with them and they would not even let the threat of murdering their family get in the way of them stealing money.

When you can grasp that concept, maybe you can see the "mother dying" aspect of the Chad bait in a different light.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:16 pm

jojobean wrote:

Therefore, by the transitive property, we could scam victims, FAR better than any scammer could.

This should be added to the ethics thread. With our skills, our knowledge of the western world (that the majority of scammers do not have), we could be far more successful than any 419 scammer out there. But we don't. Again, at the core of our baiting we are all about protecting potential victims.

Baiting Guru Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 5727

Quote:

Again, I understand that this nigerian man is not a ethical man... but aren't YW, Jojo, and Prof. being the same kind of scammers?

To be honest, for awhile we tried tell the scammers "Hi, we're scambaiters, would you mind spending hundreds of hours chasing after non-existant money and taking meaningless trips for us", but that tactic wasn't really very successful. Very Happy

The opinions expressed by some of the new folks that all victims are greedy are sadly (in my opinion) the opinions of many people not familiar with scambaiting. I won't go into why that is not true. Those that have posted above me have done a much better job than I ever could of expressing that sentiment.

I may sound like a nutjob, but I honestly believe that the people on this board are doing a much better job of fighting the scammers than any government or police agency. The safaris are fun, as we know what these people are like. We also close down fake bank accounts. Some baiters are very good at convincing the scammer that they are a big-time scammer themselves, and getting the names of victims to warn. If you look at some of the threads on this page you will see some high-quality work. We are a threat to the scammers, and they don't like us. That's probably why this site has, on more than one occasion, been the subject of a bot attack.

I think part of the problem is that the "lad-huggers" struggle to understand just what scum the lads really are. Right now I'm working with other baiters on the "Stanley" bait. Stanley gets great joy out of knowing "J" has a team of hitmen on the ready to take out people that don't pay up. In the years I have been doing this I have yet to have a scammer tell me "keep your money, as this is a scam." No matter how bad off I make my character out to be.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:21 pm

I know there are members of this forum who are here because they or friends/family have been scammed. For the most part, scam victims are not greedy. Many are down on their luck and desperate for any relief they can get from any source that presents itself.

Is a disabled person, living month-to-month on the pittance that is disability income greedy when they just want a job? Many disabled people I know (myself included) just want to be useful and productive - making a living wage would be nice, too.

Is someone who has lost their insurance but struggling with a chronic illness greedy because they welcome the "news" that they've won the lottery?

Is someone who is about to lose their home because of the mortgage crisis and the loss of their job greedy when they apply for a "pre-approved" loan?

Is a woman who just wants love, companionship, and friendship greedy when she replies to a man who met her on the internet?

I wish I knew what the percentages were, but it seems to me that the number of "dead bank customer" and "over-charged contract" scams is decreasing, and the number of lotteries, loans, jobs, and other "legal-looking" scams is increasing.

Sorry for the long post, but when I get Particularly Outraged, I break out in type.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

DirtMcGirt wrote:

I'm much to lazy for all that.. I'll just leech of the work of others for my schadenfreude God bless the free rider principal

Amen brother leecher. Smile

I think this boils down to a classic debate on vigilantism. If these lads were in jail where they should be, there wouldn't be any scamming or "unethical" baiting going on. Short of that, I'm glad there are a few baiters "on that wall" counteracting the scammers somehow where law enforcement has utterly failed.

Yes I suppose there is a certain amount of sadism or moral righteousness involved. You can't act as a baiter without a degree of certainty about what you're doing. My own moral compass still cringes once in a while when baiters take certain actions, like sending lads to other lads' homes or directing lads to hold signs that could get them killed ...but short of that, I have accepted that leading scammers around, even into situations that they are fully aware will be dangerous, is fine. In almost every single case, they begin scamming again as soon as their safari is over. So it's hard to make the argument that time spent on a safari isn't time well spent.

And if the lads get themselves injured, stranded, or indebted along the way... that seems like a bonus to me.

419Eater is my life Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 441

I think that if the joy of scambaiting really comes from preventing lads from scamming victims, that doesn't really explain why you particularly enjoy their suffering so much.

The point that their suffering is just fair and just has been made, and made quite clear. That doesn't explain the particular joy in their suffering either.

As some of the involved baiters have done here, it would be quite honest to admit to a certain amount of sadism and hatred. Especially YW has made quite clear that he doesn't object to being called a sadist, even in the interview.

Isn't that what the whole a-hole-poll is about?

So I don't see any point in critizising the core of what DirtMcGirt wrote. Her moral resumé is very questionable (actually I completely disagree with it), but when she says that you are sadists- honestly, you should agree (as some have done).

BTW: so far there's no real proof they've actually suffered at all. This fact could actually be considered a weak point of the whole bait.

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:41 pm

To the Mods: I will understand if this post gets deleted, but I just have to say this and get it off my chest so the tears stop flowing

I know that I don't really have much to add to what has been said here, but I need to let the lad huggers know that my feelings are deeply hurt and I feel insulted. You see, my scammer wasn't from Nigeria. He lives right here in the wonderful US of A. He was/is a romance scammer. I had no way of knowing that this person was scamming me to get to what little bit of money that I had. He convinced me, after a year of emails and phone calls, that he loved me, that he wanted to marry me, that he wanted me to be with him. This man convinced me to leave my job and move 400 miles to be with him. It took 6 months for me to finally understand that this man, who sat at home on the computer playing Poppit every day and eating himself up to 500 pounds, was actually waiting for me to get a job as good as the job he'd convinced me to leave so that I could take care of and support him. By then, he'd gone through all my savings and I had no money left. And he no longer had any need for me and told me that he could not marry me and that I would have to leave his home (that he had not paid rent for in almost a year - I was supposed to catch that up with my savings, I recently learned).

Someone said in an earlier post that victims are fools. Yes, I was a fool because I thought I had found true love. Yes, I was a fool because I believed every lie this man told me - and everything he told me was a lie. But I want you to know that does NOT make the pain any less. I am completely broke - all my savings went into this man's stomach and some of his bills. I am 400 miles from my home and my friends and am finally, a year later, able to go back, even though I cannot go back to my old job. My car will probably be repossessed soon. He cared so much that he would not even help me to move my things out of the house and into storage. He cared so much that he destroyed the majority of my belongings by throwing them into a sewage-filled basement, and now wants to sue me because I left them behind - everything is covered in green mold, is soaking wet from the sewage, and has bugs crawling through it. This, from the man who told me that he loved me and wanted me in his life forever. SCAMMER! He has now found a new victim on the internet, I'm told. All I can do is pray for her. And I also learned that I was not his first victim. The victim prior to me, he moved in from Massachusetts. She'd recently received a huge divorce settlement. This man convinced her she was the woman of his dreams. He then proceeded to spend up every cent of her divorce settlement with a brand new car, setting up a business, new clothes, bills, etc. When her money ran out, he no longer had use for her and threw her out as well. I wish I was making this all up *sigh*

I want to add that even though you might think that I, as a victim, am a fool, I also had a romance scammer from Nigeria on the hook for 6 years before I finally decided I had enough of him this year. Oddly enough, I never believed anything he told me. But I had no reason to think that this person who lived in my hometown and who I thought I knew would be this evil. And as far as I am concerned, that's what scammers are - evil. And what makes it worse is that a lot of them pretend to be Christians, including the one who got me to leave my home - he claims to be a minister.

I support what the baiters here are doing. I feel absolutely no sympathy for what the scammers are going through. My scammer is feeling no sympathy for me, and he has let EVERYONE he talks to know that. I only lost a small amount of money compared to what a lot of scammer victims have lost. I never once considered suicide, but I know that this has been the result in far too many scam cases. Sympathy for a scammer? Oh HELL no.

Keep up the great work Eater!!

Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:03 pm

^^I can't imagine why we would delete your post. Confused

Edit to add:

Wurzgnubbel wrote:

I think that if the joy of scambaiting really comes from preventing lads from scamming victims, that doesn't really explain why you particularly enjoy their suffering so much.

It has to do with the fact that scammers are nearly untouchable, and rarely get punished for their crimes.

Wurzgnubbel wrote:

but when she says that you are sadists- honestly, you should agree (as some have done).

I'm sorry, but "sadist" is simply the wrong word. Is it sadistic to want to see justice done to a criminal? Should I feel sorry for Charles Manson because he's rotting away in prison? Should I feel sorry for a thief who falls through a skylight while attempting to rob a store?

I made this point earlier, but I'll make it again. If Adamu were to be picked up by the police and put into prison, his suffering would be FAR greater than anything any baiter has ever managed to accomplish.

Wurzgnubbel wrote:

BTW: so far there's no real proof they've actually suffered at all. This fact could actually be considered a weak point of the whole bait.

The only lasting suffering was the disappointment of not being able to steal money from a church. I agree, it is a shame there was not more suffering.

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