Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of the Chad Bait

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Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

PF,

Morality is personal and my morality will never really affect you. Laws are different, and technically we are all subject to them, even if we have no fear of breaking them. I just took issue with the absolute blanket statement that "no laws are broken here", and both sides got caught up details.

Only because you asked, and not because I'm judging or condemning anyone... the few times my moral compass become uneasy after reading the sight for a couple years:

Asking lads to hold signs they can't read that get them in immediate danger. "Mohammed is a pedophile", etc. Yeah, they are stupid enough to do it... still, just makes me a little uneasy for some reason.

Sending lads after unrelated/unsuspecting lads. Convincing them to get into a tiger cage for $1000 is one thing. Telling them there's a $1000 bucks on the other side of that door and blindsiding them with a tiger is another. Again, some intangible gut feeling tells me this is pushing the limit a little.

I tend differentiate between convincing lads to do dangerous things, and presenting them with immediate, unsuspecting, imminent danger. Other people don't. I'm not going to hold anyone else to "my standards". Like I said, morality is personal, unique, and ill-defined.

Requisite condescending lad hugger accusation response in 5... 4... 3... 2...

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:17 pm

Why are you still typing?
You should be in jail, waiting to be extradited to Rio right now.

Seriously. It's no different from your argument.

Baiting Guru Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 12237

capricio wrote:

morality is personal, unique, and ill-defined.

That is a great definition, and enough to satisfy me, for the purposes of my line of questioning. If you said that earlier in the thread, I missed it.

Edit: As far as the legal vs. illegal argument, I do not want to involve myself in it. I am very comfortable separating the legal issue from the moral issue. Abortion is a good example.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Slightly,

I never condemned baiters or said they should all be in jail. You just want to portray me as being on a high horse, with a double standard. Get off it already.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:31 pm

Get it straight. If I wanted to portray you as being on a high horse, I'd tell you outright that I think you're a dumb cock-wallet. But no. I'm a nice guy so I'm actually trying to still reason with you.

Now tell me the difference between what your argument is and the scenario with Jojo that I've laid out.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

What are you, like 12 years old or something? What am I supposed to say that will make you feel validated now?

Edit: bad word choice. Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:41 pm

@ capricio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhxpohzZHbc

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:51 pm

Too late Caprico.

I saw what you wrote and it hurt my feelings. As many here know, I'm really sensitive and emotional. Your words have driven me over the edge and in about 20 minutes I'll have to jump off a bridge.

Your fault and you've broken the law.

See where I'm going with this? It's still no different to your argument. The fact that you didn't mean for Jojo to get raped or for me to kill myself doesn't matter because you've already discounted intent. The fact that I haven't told you which law you've broken or even that you haven't broken it doesn't matter. It's exactly the same argument.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:10 pm

caprico wrote:

I just took issue with the absolute blanket statement that "no laws are broken here", and both sides got caught up details.

The only details I'm caught up in are which laws we are breaking? I gave it my best shot, but Eight put me straight.

We used to tolerate cash baiting, but now we discourage that because the consensus here was that it is illegal. If we're still breaking laws, we would prefer not to. So, let's get specific here.

Master Baiter Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 114

Hi everyone,

I was under the impression that our goal was to waste the scammers time and not each others. Just an observation .....

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:14 pm

^^^ Your comment is quite LOL, but I don't think it is really a waste of time to discuss the ethics of what you do.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:14 pm

We are not doing anything illegal, as far as I can see.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:18 pm

@ capricio,

Are you going to bait??? Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:19 pm

One thing I noticed that hasn't been brought up here...

Anyone here remember the Megan Miers/Lori Drew myspace thing?

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/01/21/080121fa_fact_collins

It's a long article, but presents the players and facts. In a nutshell, Lori, mother of teenage girl, creates fake myspace profile of a teenage boy in order to "get at" Megan, who had been involved in some teenage mean girl stuff with Lori's daughter. Megan ended up committing suicide.

Same as baiting? Discuss.

My thoughts on it- (no authority, I just got here)

Lori was baiting someone she knew. Who lived down the street. She had knowledge that Megan had psychological issues. Megan was not a criminal, although it could be argued that she was committing girl crimes. (?) More importantly, Megan was a child, and Lori still is a woman in her 40's.

What happens here, that I've observed, is folks are going after criminals, not teenagers. Folks with amazing computer skills are wasting the time of people who would be happy to empty out your bank account and not look back or care about the wreckage in their wake. The rules for baiting are articulated in a way that could be argued to protect the mugus from physical harm.

This might all come down to intention. Lori's stated intention was that she wanted to "mess with Megan." The intention here seems to bee to keep scammers' hands full to take away from their moneymaking, thereby lowering victim stat numbers. I'm sure that Lori's intention wasn't to have the girl commit suicide, but there's something much more reprehensible about a grown woman messing with a teenager than computer savvy individuals tying the hands of criminals for a little while...

Also for what it's worth, for those arguing legality here, I don't think that Lori has been able to be prosecuted for anything. Her life has been ruined though, by the same medium she used to mess the teenager. Folks got her information and ruined her business, got her husband laid off from his job, and made life much worse for her own teenage daughter.

I'm sorry if my argument is kind of spotty here. I'm in full support of baiting- I just see a few common elements in the Lori case. Mostly that the internet brought country justice, even though the law hasn't caught up with the technology.

I'm interested in others' thoughts on this. Or you can tell me there's no there there.

My question above was to myself about the girl crime- I'm not sure what it means but I know it exists...

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:21 pm

Hi cheetah. Welcome to Eater. Wink

I've already mentioned Lori Drew and what she has been indicted of a few pages ago.

It should also be stated that she was not baiting. She was cyber-bullying.
Huge difference.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Corona wrote:

@ capricio,

Are you going to bait??? Smile

I doubt any mentor would take me now. Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:24 pm

Slightly will. He has to. I am his boss.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:25 pm

@ cheeta, Good point in that we mess with criminals, not innocents. As for the myspace story I remember reading that but the mother who created the fake page in no way forced the girl to commit suicide, she did that out of free will. We can argue the toss over the morals of it for weeks but the girl did have a choice.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:26 pm

Sorry to be off topic, but what's with the avatar Rodus? Where are your usuals? Crying or Very sad

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:43 pm

@slightly- Embarassed

Sorry, I read everything but obviously my retention/comprehension isn't so hot...

Yes, the bullying is a huge difference. My post above, I was making the argument as I wrote, not terribly cogent! I'll go back to lurking on this thread, I don't have much to say since I think the ethics of this come down to the individual.

And I have no judgement for people who might go further/use tactics that I wouldn't, except to say, "Nice job."

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:46 pm

capricio.

I'll mentor you. Not because Jojo is my boss (he's actually my bitch) but because you obviously need someone with superb skills to bring you back from the Dark Side.

cheetah. Your argument was way better than some I've seen here. Laughing

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

I never really saw us as being on opposite sides, fundamentally. I just enjoy a good debate. I could have done without the name calling and characterizations, though. Crying or Very sad

Forever n00b Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 432

capricio wrote:

luckey wrote:

What we do is not illegal.

I'm not entirely confident about that, at least not in every case. . . . I'm pretty sure a court would frown upon using deception to manipulate people, even criminals.

Can I just say that in a police investigation, there are few situations in which deception is NOT used to manipulate criminals. When an investigator is interrogating a suspect, trust me, they are often not being 100% honest with that suspect. When they say "We know you did it!" their lying. When they say "Your partner is in the next room, handing you to us on a silver platter", they're being deceptive. When they say "tell us what you know and it will go easier for you", trust me, they are being DECEPTIVE! It may not give us all a warm, cuddly feeling, but deception really is necessary. We would be ineffective without it.

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:59 pm

Take Slightly up on his offer. Then, when he gives you pisspoor advice, email me and I will set things straight.

Forever n00b Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 432

capricio wrote:

Corona wrote:

@ capricio,

Are you going to bait??? Smile

I doubt any mentor would take me now. Smile

I'll take you, provided you can get over your reluctance to do anything illegal. One of the duties of my n00bs is to dispose of the bodies. I don't like to get my hands dirty with such things. Gives me plausible deniability and all.

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