Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of the Chad Bait

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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:24 pm

capricio wrote:

But if you applied your logic and used deception on a person like that in the US/UK and were caught at it, you could likely face prosecution or at a minimum, a civil lawsuit that you would lose. The justice system would frown upon it, and you would have a devil of a time trying to convince them that you need to do their job for them.

No you wouldn't.
I have a few friends in Law Enforcement and they think that what we do is great. They're only pissed because their hands are tied by red tape whereas we can bend the rules a little.

And as one Police Sergeant put it to me: "Get into trouble over it? Do you reckon a scammer would stand in the dock and give evidence against you? If he did, he would be laughed out of court."

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Slightlyoutofit wrote:

I have a few friends in Law Enforcement and they think that what we do is great. They're only pissed because their hands are tied by red tape whereas we can bend the rules a little.

Ask a District Attorney or Judge instead of a police officer. I'm betting you'll get a different answer. Smile

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:34 pm

[Post deleted by poster.]

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:35 pm

@ Capricio.
It would have to get that far first. And it wouldn't.
The law works in stages and if it fell at the first stage, there's nothing to answer for.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Tommo Shanter wrote:

No shit Sherlock. Shame more of them don't pursue that avenue and put all of us here and at scamwarners out of a job.

You've been here since June, read the stickies, bait safe, get a mentor and join the real world.

@ Luckey & Rodus

This is pretty much what I was talking about. Rolling Eyes

@ Slightly

Drug dealers rob eachother all the time and never report it. It doesn't mean nothing illegal was done by either party. Is nothing being reported your litmus test for legality? Smile

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:40 pm

This judge you mean ?

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

@ Gomer

My bad, I meant "Barrister", not District Attorney. Laughing

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:44 pm

@ capricio

I love a good rolly. Laughing

I ain't gonna fall out with you because a) we are both supposed
to be on the same side and also b)I'm tired and off to bed and c) I've seen it all before.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:46 pm

Quote:

@ Luckey & Rodus

This is pretty much what I was talking about. Rolling Eyes

Fair point. Thanks for self-editing Tommo, but let's all limit ourselves to respectful and constructive comments.

Quote:

Drug dealers rob eachother all the time and never report it. It doesn't mean nothing illegal was done by either party. Is nothing being reported your litmus test for legality? Smile

What we do is not illegal. That's another reason we never get arrested.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:54 pm

capricio wrote:

@ Slightly

Drug dealers rob eachother all the time and never report it. It doesn't mean nothing illegal was done by either party. Is nothing being reported your litmus test for legality? Smile

Aw... come on dude. You can do better than that. The lads can be compared to drug dealers, but us baiters?
Maybe if you said a drug dealer robbed a guy going 1 mph over the speed limit in his car..... Even then, I'd say that's harsh on the baiter.

There are holes and loopholes in every country's laws. If there weren't the lads themselves wouldn't exist and we would be redundant. Technically, there may be times when baiters overstep the mark (I can't think of any examples off the top of my head though), but there's a big difference to doing something that's technically in the grey area to out and out criminal activity.

Personally, I would like to see JoJo, Prof and YW in jail (on Death Row). But they'll never get sent there for baiting lads. No-one in the legal profession would risk their reputation prosecuting them - even if they do stray into that grey area.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:55 pm

@Gomer, I don't lie. I write romantic fiction. Mr. Green

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

luckey wrote:

What we do is not illegal.

I'm not entirely confident about that, at least not in every case. I used to date a girl that was a county DA. I told her what goes on here and about some of the hilarious baits that took place. She didn't find any of it funny and was somewhat appalled. Needless to say we broke up eventually.

Granted there is nearly a 0% chance any baiter would be called to court for it, but strictly from a legal standpoint, I'm not confident that everything done here is completely legal. I'm pretty sure a court would frown upon using deception to manipulate people, even criminals. But, I'm not an attorney, and readily admit that I really don't know for sure. I'd be curious if anyone ever got an opinion from a real attorney...

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:58 pm

capricio wrote:

luckey wrote:

What we do is not illegal.

I'm not entirely confident about that, at least not in every case.

Back it up with an example, dude.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:02 pm

Quote:

I'd be curious if anyone ever got an opinion from a real attorney...

You'd be suprised who we get on here.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:04 pm

Quote:

Needless to say we broke up eventually.

I would have broken up with her also. Smile

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

@ Slightly

Okay, like sending lads to break into other lads' homes to take property.

Or how about convincing lads to fight each other, or that one stole from the other?

Not saying there isn't element of Karma to it, but how would a court interpret it? Be honest about this, not your own opinion/feelings, or mine... but how a court would see it?

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:10 pm

Honestly? A UK court or US court wouldn't give a crap.
Without even getting into wether or not the baiter has committed a crime, the "victim" is a foreign national in his own country.
I can't speak for the US but over here in the UK, if there isn't a UK victim, there isn't a crime. The law here works on a "customer service" basis. The customer has to be a UK citizen or on UK territory. The victim is the customer.
No customer, no crime.

Any prosecution would have to be kickstarted by the lad's own police force. Only then could UK LE get involved.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:16 pm

My Lad states that Nigerian police only get off their rear ends if they receive a hefty bribe.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure a court would frown upon using deception to manipulate people, even criminals.

So when a mugger asks if I have any money I am legally obliged to tell the truth ?

Laughing

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

@ slightly

Okay fine, the whole process originates from a Nigerian court. Would they have grounds to request your extradition? Would your own country refuse them despite convincing evidence of a criminal conspiracy? I've seen baiters also manipulate domestic scammers, though not by means of those two specific case types I mentioned.

Forget about the lad and his crime for a minute, because the courts probably would treat that as a completely separate matter/offense.

Edit: typing too fast! I'm really not comfortable arguing legal stuff, but I'm also unconvinced that I'm wrong on this point. Laughing

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:24 pm

There are way too many hypotheticals there.
But let's say a crime actually has been committed? The next thing the law would have to do would be to prove intent. That would be nigh on impossible.

But those hypotheticals make the question almost irrelevant.

You'd need a crime.
You'd need the lad to report it.
You'd need your country to decide wether it's a crime.
You'd need intent.
You'd need an extradition treaty.
You'd need the lad to give evidence.
There are probably dozens of other things that would also have to be taken into account before a baiter could be prosecuted.

Way, way too many variables and that's without even taking into account that there isn't anything that we do that can be classified as criminal activity.

Elite Baiter Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 1269

capricio wrote:

I'd be curious if anyone ever got an opinion from a real attorney...

My father is a lawyer. He knows what baiting is and hasn't said anything about it being illegal.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure a court would frown upon using deception to manipulate people, even criminals.

I'm pretty sure that undercover officers don't go around telling people that they're undercover officers...

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

Special_K wrote:

I'm pretty sure that undercover officers don't go around telling people that they're undercover officers...

Yeah but operating as an LEO is a different thing entirely.

If you convince a lad to assault another lad, are you legally absolved of any chance of prosecution? You provided motive and intent by deception. Again, please try to distance yourself from the morality of it or the justice in your actions.

To me, the safaris are great. I really enjoy reading about them. But I think to myself sometimes that one day a lad is gonna die. And while I personally wouldn't find it all that troubling, deaths are something even the corrupt Nigerian system would probably get off it's ass to look into.

You guys are just making the argument that since the system would fail, you have no legal liability, at all. I know it's all hypothetical, but lets say a baiter didn't cover this tracks and a death finally happens... Nigeria wants you extradited and they have the emails and network device logs to prove you were pulling the strings. Are you sure you have nothing to worry about, from a legal standpoint?

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Who is the deceased in that scenario? Barrister David Mark (or some other fake name)? Because that's who the emails from the baiter would probably have been addressed to. The person the baiter is writing to doesn't exist.

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:03 pm

Quote:

You provided motive and intent by deception

No - the scammer did.

In the UK the police run very successful 'sting' operatons against thieves and and I have never ever heard any criminal ever attempt to assert that it was illegal because they were deceived.

They used to show them on TV and they were very amusing.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

@ Ima

Again, you're relying on some part of the process to fail or some technicality to come into play. Lets just pretend for a moment that it doesn't.

Scenario:

Someone can prove that you instigated/provoked one lad to assault another one through deception.

Now what? No worries? Courts won't find you did anything they consider illegal? Please approach it objectively, from a legal standpoint. Can you still tell me they wouldn't find you guilty of something?

GomerPyle wrote:

There was no threat involved, only his own desire to steal money.

You don't think the little idiot would tell the court about saving the girl that was in mortal danger? We both agree, the lockbox was his true motive, but you DID try to twist him around with "saving the girl", even if he undoubtably thought he was just going to get laid. Smile

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