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 2 questions from a newbie

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JMRazor
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Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

What?? I was just going to say: "Hey Eight and SB -- Look over there!" and point to something behind them and then rush by....

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Cowboyup
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 30 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
You won't be saved by hiding behind SB and Eight -- I have my ways of distracting them... Wink


lol call me a noob but what is SB and eight and how am I hiding behind them?

Fixed quote tags -- JMR
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juliette
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think that technically scambaiting is a fraud.
(fraud is the crime or offense of deliberately deceiving another in order to damage them)

However, no scammer will sue you for obvious reasons (what kind of 'lost profits' would they claim?). Similarly, no government body is going to prosecute you for it unless your actions harm an innocent 3rd party.

Ultimately it is a question of your moral rules and a question of where to draw the line - things you are willing to do and things you would not do.
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JMRazor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Look back in the thread to see "what" an Eight and SB are.

And you aren't hiding behind them -- some smart guy is. Wink

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Cowboyup
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 30 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

yeah I saw that, in fact I saw it right after I posted it so like I said call me a noob. Very Happy
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Titania
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@Gomer - eloquently put! Bravo! clapping

@Packman - good Lord, don't tell someone to grab a cup of coffee before reading the forums! Tell them to PUT DOWN their cup of coffee - to protect their keyboards and monitors. Mr. Green

@Juliette - we don't bait with the intention of harming scammers - we bait with the intention of wasting their time and saving innocent victims from harm. Big difference.

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ParaNoid
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

To back up what Titana said, we do baiting to distract criminals from their intended victims. If that is fraud then I am the President of England. It is like what JMR said he would do to Eight and SB. It is distraction, not fraud.

@ Juliette, It almost sounds like you are thinking that the scammers/criminals have a right to defraud the elderly, infirm and naive. I want to think that you are just learning, but your posts don't indicate that. You may be labled a "Lad Hugger", but I will hold my judgement for a bit. Cool

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persephone
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Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
signed up for a mentor and so far havent gotten one,


This takes a few days. When you go into the hints and tips section you can find a sticky that willl help you through the most common questions new people have. Please allow Cherrie a few days to find a suitable mentor (mentrix?) for you. If you have any questions in the meantime, you can always hop over the hints and tips forum and ask your question there. We are a helpful bunch here Wink

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juliette
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

paranoid & titania:

Wasting lad's time, money and resources is harming them. And I don't mind that at all Twisted Evil
It's just that I don't make any illusions to myself about the fact that this business (baiting) is on the shady side of the legal territory.

As for the risk of receiving a derogatory label on an internet message board - [sarcastically] oh my, that would put me in real trouble!

(I wonder if anybody will want to mentor me after my recent picky posts)
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sheboppe
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@Cowboyup - if you signed up for a mentor in the mentor thread, it will take Cherrie a few days to get you sorted out as there are a lot of mentor requests. In the meantime, please post your questions in the Scambaiting Help forum for some excellent guidance on your bait. We'll be very happy to help you out. Very Happy

@JM - how well I know about your ways of distracting us. I can't speak for Eight, but I'm still recovering from your last distraction. Wink

@Snerd - I can imagine what your comment would have been. Laughing

@Packman - right now I think the broom closet is a good choice. It needs to have a lock on the door so that we can lock your snide comment inside. Smile

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sheboppe
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

juliette wrote:
It's just that I don't make any illusions to myself about the fact that this business (baiting) is on the shady side of the legal territory.


Actually scambaiting is not illegal, and it's not on the shady side of the legal territory. If we were scamming the lads for cash (this is just a reference to make a point - no discussion about cash baiting please), then we would be doing illegal acts. To waste a lad's time, money and resources is not against the law.

Quote:

As for the risk of receiving a derogatory label on an internet message board - [sarcastically] oh my, that would put me in real trouble!


Your sarcasm isn't necessary. A statement was made by another member that doesn't need to be taken personally. Let's be nice. Wink

Quote:

(I wonder if anybody will want to mentor me after my recent picky posts)


Of course they will. I know that it is difficult to fit into Internet forums, but if you are friendly and willing to learn, you'll do really well here. Very Happy

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GomerPyle
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:27 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't want you to think that I, or anyone else, is ganging up and berating you juliette. Indeed, in my early days I thought over the very same points, and had some dilemmas of the ethical type when I was in a position of power over a scammer - but it soon wore off.

You mentioned that you thought what we do may be construed as some type of fraud. Strictly, in my country fraud would be simply described as attempting to gain a pecuniary advantage by means of a deception.

Unless you are receiving something from a scammer there is no chance of that being applied to you. Then we are left with art baiters and those who gain something tangible from a scammer. I wouldn't lie awake at night worrying about that one as I see myself as a Joe Pesci type lawyer leaving a judge and jury rolling about the floor in laughter as I describe how I as a baiter obtained some miserable worthless piece of rubbish from a multi millionaire beneficiary of a will. The minute he admits he is a lying cheat his case is dust.

The scammer may not see the hilarity of the situation, but then he doesn't have access to an international lawyer (barrister in a joke wig - yes) and isn't interested in anything other than cash, the easy way.

The 'Indian Deady Baby' scammer and the 'Noma Charity' scammer, and many more deserve no mercy. They would exploit anyones' tragedy to scam money. I have been known to let loose a stupid person who spams looking for a job, but my principal is that anyone coming into my inbox without an invite and with evil intent, does so at his own peril.

419 scammers do not live in refugee camps and beg for food. Usually they have money (for the internet cafe) and plenty of free time. They'll scam anyone - even their own countrymen, and they don't care if you are disabled or dirt poor.

Am I bothered - about scammers ? No.

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juju4u
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Not to make light of a sensitive topic, but, dang,:
Quote:
....I thought over the very same points, and had some dilemmas of the ethical type when I was in a position of power over a scammer

Shocked That is not the Gomer I know Laughing

Welcome. This is the nice version of what they deserve: beating

Maybe you should have a go at baiting a lad as a very sick elderly person that needs that last $300 to pay for life-sustaining medication... What you witness will surprise you.

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juliette
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

GomerPyle:

Well said, soldier. I cannot speak for every country, but in my country scambaiting fulfills all elements of the legal definition of a fraud. This is because the law does not consider the moral qualities or intentions of the scambaiting target. If I was the one writing that particular law, I would have added a clause or two about scammers, but I wasn't.

In any case, I have no sympathy for the likes that threaten a 10 year old girl with death. And given the wild west that the internet is, I find the actions of scambaiters justified. Even though I think their legality is questionable.
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JMRazor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'd be interested in knowing what country you are from.

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irishemigrant
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
I cannot speak for every country, but in my country scambaiting fulfills all elements of the legal definition of a fraud.


Does this mean that victims who reply to scammers are guilty of fraud?

There are a lot of straight baiters here, all we do is reply to the lads with what would be normal peoples responses, we stuff up WU and MG payments, run the lads ragged, until either they drop us, or we exhaust every avenue of approach, then rinse and repeat.

And if baiting is defined as fraud, where does this leave the lads? They are the ones who approach us, with their modalities, at no stage have we approached them with a scam.

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solomongrundy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
is the FBI gonna show up at my door and arrest me for it?


Sure they are. I have emails from $^&%%&£%[email protected] to prove it Laughing

I'm not so sure what jurisdiction the FBI have in the UK though...
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Ari
Elite Baiter


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Another way to win a free membership is by taking the Eater U quiz, which can be found here: http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144393
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juliette
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

JMRazor:
I'm from Slovakia. But after a quick search it seems the same applies to US law: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud (though I guess you could debate point 5 claiming the scammer is actually better of when he's wasting time with you and not defrauding victims)

irishemigrant:
Yes, it's clear that the scammers are guilty of fraud. Whether victims are part of the fraud is not an easy question. In some 419 scenarios the victims are led to believe they are actually taking part in an illegal activity. But mostly they are just victims of a fraud and nothing else.
Unlike the victims (for the most part that is) the baiter purposely tries to mislead the scammers. That means he is actually committing a (counter) fraud.

Finally, consider following example:
While walking down the street you suddenly come upon a mugger trying to rob an elderly lady and you whack him one. Technically speaking it's not exactly legal if he didn't pose any threat to you, but nobody would prosecute you and even if so, you would easily claim temporary insanity. However, if you would place (someone masked as) an elderly lady on an unsafe street specifically for the purpose of her attracting muggers so that you could whack them, it would be clearly illegal.
But there is one twist to this example - in real world there are legal bodies dealing with muggers and as a private person you have enough legal tools to get muggers behind bars without crossing legal lines. On the internet this is different. That's why I think scambaiting is justified, while my fictional muggerbaiting is not.
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JMRazor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Juliette -- with all due respect, I would worry less about defining what is "definitely illegal" and worrying more about whether you intend to participate on this forum as a baiter or rather one who will just question everyone's premise (because really, we never get people who do that).

Under your definition of "definitely illegal" any police organization that ran a "sting" operation would be in violation of the law. However, I'm not going to debate you as you obviously have a much better understanding of the law -- from freelegaldictionsry or wherever -- than I, so if you want to be a baiter, please have at it (and we'll be happy to help you find something to do which makes you comfortable). However if baiting continues to fall into your "definitely illegal" category, and your only purpose here will be to serve as judge and jury, then please feel free to move along -- we will take our chances.

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sir scam alot
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'll take the noob on. I'm not mentoring anyone right now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@Juliette - There are other activities that we perform here that don't involve getting scammers to safari hundreds of miles or take stupid photos of themselves.
If you aren't comfortable with doing those things thats fine, why not look into the fake bank forum?
http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=23

That might suit you perfectly... Very Happy

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juliette
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

JMRazor:
Quote:
you intend to participate on this forum as a baiter or rather one who will just question everyone's premise

I choose none of the options Wink
I would rather be a baiter that is not afraid to question the legality of his own actions (I already started baiting).

Of course if it is the consensus of the 419eater community that they don't want to have anyone pondering the legal and moral implications of scambaiting on their forums, I will stop posting such things here.
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JMRazor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nope -- we get the same issues you've raised about every two weeks. A quick search of the Help forum, for example, using the terms "morality" or "legality" would have revealed that rather than prohibiting such discussions, we let them go on and on and on.

My only point to you was that you were not discussing -- but rather stating absolutes (e.g. that baiting is definitely illegal). Since you know this for a fact, I was only pointing out that rather than re-state your position every other post, that you should start baiting or move on to a new point or forum (depending entirely on your decision).

I hope you have a productive time baiting and thank you for your contributions.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't care either way, it's hilarious fun and I'm not about to stop.

As far as accusations of fraud: Fraud usually requires that someone is somehow robbed of some sort of tangible asset, which is why cash baiting is Off The Menu For Good. to do so would leave us open to accusations of fraud as well as other nasty comebacks in criminal, legal and ethical terms.

The kind of stuff we get out of our pets is useless outside a bait; confessions, photographs, forms for fake churches, countless fake documents. Aside from this, it's purely crime prevention: killing phones, accounts, websites, wasting time and distracting from softer targets.

Throw in the fact that their motivation for sending us this junk and spending so long on it is that they think they are scamming us out of thousands of pounds, and no court in the world will ever convict you, if it ever went to court, which it won't.

So cheer up and send a lad or two into a war zone with no money and a heavy debt so he can eat stale bread and filthy meat and sleep in the rain for a month. It's incredible satisfying just watching, actually making it happen must be wonderful. Have fun, read the stickies etc etc Very Happy

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