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 Tour de Farce ?

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Gnasher
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

As yet another cyclist tests positive for drugs in the Tour de France, is elite cycling as a sport becoming a bit of a joke? Are these people so utterly obsessed with winning at any cost that they are prepared to jeapordise their whole career (and that of their team mates) or are they arrogant/dumb enough to believe they won't be caught? This article in today's Melbourne Age newspaper is pretty damning.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/07/17/1216163059799.html

I know we have a lot of keen cyclists here and would be interested to hear your point of view.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It's professional cycling for them and direct related to their income, so they are willing to take the risk.
Two options, you take it during the training season and stop in time to be "clean" when the season starts or cross your fingers and hope for the best.
We drink and drive, take any kind of over(and or under) the counter pills to be better, relaxed, clear the headache or just because we are addicted to it. The only reason they are checked is the commercial pressure that we don't have in our daily life. We take the same risk, but they are checked more often.
To stop all rumors, I do drink beer at home, never type or drive drunk and the last pill I took was an aspirin some two years ago, I don't really like modern symptom repressing "health" care, I might die young, but healthy Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I used to love the Tour-back in the late mid eighties to early nineties-Stephen Roche-personal hero etc. When that French dude got busted (Richard Virenque) it just went downhill- I liked Marco Pantani, as at least he had some soul and character as opposed to Armstrong's blandness (all the hater's join the Q!Very Happy). Then Pantani died and David Millar got busted-banned and came back promising to ride clean and now this... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

afaic the sport in total has lost it for me, i may watch the mountain stages if i remember-as much for the scenery as the spectacle-but as for who's who, or who win's i really couldn't give a f....

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I still love watching the race but agree, that there seems to be a doping scandal (or a few) every year lately. Hopefully, now that Cadel is not competing agains a doped up cyclist, he may actually win this year's race

Quote:
One of Evans' main rivals, Italian Riccardo Ricco, was escorted away from the start of the 12th stage by police after a positive drug test. His entire Saunier Duval team withdrew.

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Gnasher
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:08 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well as you can imagine, the Aussie sports press is all over this and our latest hero Cadel Evans. He's already being spruiked as "The Greatest Australian Sportsman Of All Time" Rolling Eyes I'm sorry to say it but Australians are not usually very gracious in defeat, but they are even worse in victory. In any event, he's only 1 second in the lead and with 9 (?) more stages to go it's still wide open.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:09 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Riccardo Ricco .... positive drug test. His entire Saunier Duval team withdrew.


That is the thing that gets overlooked sometimes, I think. Behind or with every athlete or sportsperson, team player or not, are people who have worked hard and supported to help them succeed, and who will get as much out of the success as the athlete. They, and any team mates, are deprived of the victory when the athlete cheats but (maybe) without the choice or knowledge the athlete has. Sad

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:45 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I was following cycling for quite a few years. I'm an avid rider (actually, at this point I'm known as a bike punk since I decided a year ago that driving just wasn't worth it anymore.) The doping was one of the reasons I lost interest in it... I can't stand to watch any sports anymore because they just seem to be filled with cheaters and frauds.

I'm just hoping Armstrong, Indurain and Merckx weren't dopers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Aren't all sportsmen and women obsessed with winning? It isn't only cyclists who use performance enhancing drugs. I expect the Olympics next month will result in many failed drugs tests.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:17 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
I liked Marco Pantani, as at least he had some soul and character as opposed to Armstrong's blandness (all the hater's join the Q!). Then Pantani died


um...I just wanted to point out that Pantani died because he took so much EPO that his heart couldn't pump his overly thick blood and gave out...Armstrong, I'm not sure about but the way he says it "I've never FAILED a drug test" leaves much doubting. We'll see in a decade or so if he 'comes out' or not.

I like seeing that they are doing something about it and KICKING THEM OUT! (I'm american so I'll talk about our sports here...not sure what it's like elsewhere but...)Do you think that they'll do anything if they catch a superstar football/baseball player doping in the playoffs? HA. Sure, they'll suspend them for a few games but not long enough to not play in the big game (Superbowl/World Series). Do anything else beyond that? Doubt it. Baseball just had that huge steroids scandal...I don't recall anything much coming out of that to clean up the sport there...

At least cycling is doing some thing and to me at least, it appears that the number of riders doping is going down. Then you have the american teams (Garmin/Chipotle and Colombia) who have their own anti-doping standards/policies going beyond the WADA testing on their own riders to eliminate furhter the chance of sending out a doped up rider. Many other teams are starting their own system as well. Cycling hit rock bottom a few years ago and now has to shake off the mud.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Tony Stark wrote:
I'm just hoping Armstrong, Indurain and Merckx weren't dopers.



Merckx was a doper, sorry to burst your bubble

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

<br>At the end of the day, it comes down to one thing...money. Winning means bigger pay days, more sponsorship, fresh endorsements and the fame that goes with it.

Quite a coincidence that this is occurring at the same time that British athlete Dwaine "Dwiane Dwaine Go Away" Chambers waits to hear today if he can represent Britain at the Bejing Olympics following a drug ban. Personally, I would ban the cheating b*ggers for life, whatever the sport.

On the up side, congratulations to rider Mark Cavendish for becoming the first Brit to win three stages of the same TdF...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/7512297.stm

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I reckon it's the FAME more than the money that ultimately leads the above average sportsperson to consider taking performance enhancing drugs. Anyone can be corpulently wealthy but relatively unknown. But for most people there's greater satisfaction in getting that instant respect and adulation wherever they go, rather than cash. Though cash definitely follows fame anyway.

Some of the blame definitely has to be levelled at the sports fans though. We want our athletes to be faster, stronger and more superior every year. Here's an idea, let's make it compulsory for athletes to take performance enhancing drugs. There's be no hassle with ethics then.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Chambers won't be going, which seems correct to me. He took a body building substance and still seems to have the physique he got from whatever he took.
So isn't he still benefiting from his past drug taking?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

If you offer extreme money for success in sport, people will go to extreme lengths to secure it.

It is always going to be worse in sports which are tilted towards physical capacity (running, swimming, cycling) rather than skill (tennis, badminton, cricket).

Many athletes have been asked: "If drugs enabled you to win the Olympics, even if you knew it was going to ruin your health, would you still take them?". They all said Yes.

A question of fame or money? No difference. In our society today, fame is money, money is fame. If Paris was short of a dollar, do you think she'd have trouble selling her intimate autobiography? Mad

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:46 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@Casual

Baseball does have the five strikes and you're out rule... just like the game itself! /sarcasm

@Klaasvaak

Was he? Damn, that makes me sad. I named a dog after him... Crying or Very sad

@Wright

You're right, and that's really the sad part. They don't care about the sports, they don't care if the fans tune out (at least not in the short term, they would in the long term when sponsor quit paying because no one's watching). I guess it's not surprising that every cycling store I go to now doesn't bother playing the TDF or videos of other races anymore... then again most Yanks don't really give a crap about pro cycling, we're mostly rec cyclers.

Meh, I'd rather be doing than watching. It would be nice if it would stop looking like rain around here so I could do just that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:53 am Reply with quoteBack to top

the quote is from wikipedia:

Quote:
Merckx has condemned doping, but as mentioned he also tested positive twice in his career. For this very fact, the organization of the 2007 World Championships in Stuttgart explicitly included Merckx in a list of people who would not be welcome at the event. The decision caused quite a row and was criticized in the press and by the UCI.[8] When he confirms his stance against doping, Merckx will typically point out that cycling is unfairly treated when compared to other sports.

In the 1990s, he became a friend of Lance Armstrong and supported him when he was accused of drug use, stating he rather "believed what Lance told him than what appeared in newspapers". After Armstrong won his third Tour de France, Merckx predicted he would go on to win as many as seven[citation needed].

One of his closest friends is former RSC Anderlecht-player Paul van Himst.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Despite the recent discoveries, I am more confident that this is a cleaner TdF than in the recent past. I have more doubts about the competency of WADA.

In another browser window, I have the TdF newsflashes and despite (at the time of writing) there being a breakaway group of 2 by 8 minutes, I think that the peloton will catch them and we will have another sprint finish. What will be interesting is to see which teams are working to chase down the break. The fact that as at 14:18 local time Colombia was working to control the gap would indicate that they are intent on setting things up for thier sprinter, who happens to be Mark Cavendish. When he spoke to the BBC last night he said (to quote the TdF Newsflash)

Quote:
“I’m really happy,” Cavendish told BBC radio when asked how it felt to beat British rider Barry Hoban’s record of two stage wins in one Tour. “But as I keep telling the journalists, I don’t think Barry had the sort of team that I’ve had and it all boils down to that.
“They used up a lot of energy before today but they still gave 110 percent and dropped me off at the right place at the finish to do what I do best which is win.
“I think it’s possible,” he said in response to the question of if he can win more stages. “But I’m getting pretty tired. It’s taken a lot of me. I was suffering a lot more than I normally do but I was still able to win.”
His victory was overshadowed in the headlines by the news about Riccardo Ricco’s positive test that was announced just before the 12th stage. “I think everybody is happy that the cheats are getting caught,” concluded ‘Cav’ in his interview with BBC. “It proves that the tests are working. It’s good for the sport. The more cheats that get caught, the cleaner the sport gets.”


If he was really tired they would be protecting him and not trying to set up the sprint.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Now I really feel old, my "hero's" were Jan Jansen, Zoetemelk and de Knijf. Laughing . The trouble is that more "normal" medication is used to improve their wellbeing and that this is(can be) registered by the more and more sensitive testing equipment. Three weeks on a bike isn't easy, but if you can't find a painkiller that will register as doping you might as well quit. The TdF is only one race, but their whole season is crammed with races, the lesser ones will have to race everything they can just to make ends meet, that means all those around the church races in the small villages during the summer weeks, sometimes 2 a day with all the risk involved in those road races.
Even with all the bad publicity they get I think they are the better sporter, a normal soccer team already complains when they have two games a week and those guys have a guaranteed high income, a cyclist has a good base income, but has to win to get rich.
@ Martharan.
Tactics before wellbeing, he can be tired, but can't show it, they have to try no matter how they feel, commercial pressure and the team manager sets the tempo. That's what makes them the "better" sportsmen in my eyes. There are no sick days and the team needs a 100% or better every day!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The Tour de France is so screwed up, even the guys riding the motor-cycles are doped up.

It's a total waste of time and has been for quite a few years now.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@bill2
I agree with your thoughts about tactics & wellbeing and these are certainly applying to the ride on the day. My thought was that Mark was playing a little mind game with his BBC interview. Making the other teams think he and, to some extent, his team were needing to recover and thus lull them into a false sense of security. BICBW.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I do not think that catching these guys is hurting the sport one bit. If anything, it is helping it. Professional cycling has become the most scrutinized sport ever. And it's about time too because it was becoming nothing but a joke. Here is one of the best of the jokes... http://www.theonion.com/content/news/non_doping_cyclists_finish_tour_de

What would be damaging to the sport would be if they did so-so testing, like in Major League Baseball, where there are some tests, but no real consequences if you are caught. People would continue to think that the people in charge were just turning a blind eye. In cycling, they have stopped messing around and have finally realized that the sport will go down the tubes without the strictest of testing and enforcement.

As a competitive cyclist myself, I am rather pissed when I find out that others are cheating. If I am going to lose to someone, they better be clean or I might just go and sanction them myself, in my not-so-legal and not-so-friendly way.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Casual Occurance wrote:
Armstrong, I'm not sure about but the way he says it "I've never FAILED a drug test" leaves much doubting. We'll see in a decade or so if he 'comes out' or not.


Disclaimer - I am not an Armstrong fan boy or really even follow cycling. I followed Armstrong a bit when he won his last TDF just because of the record setting nature.

I do, however, get my nose out of joint when someone says well so and so never denies that so and so does not dope, all they do is say they never failed a test.

How do you prove a negative. Prove to me that you have never conducted a 419 scam in your life (sorry not you personally, you know what I mean Smile ).

So by saying he has never failed a test he is saying look I don't dope and I cannot prove a negative, but what evidence I can give you is I have been tested x number of times and they all came back clean.

Some doping agency claimed to have the "goods" on Armstrong but when their methods were checked they were found to be so scientifically flawed that they were totally unreliable so the positive test was found to be no test at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This discussion makes me long for the days of a good menthol ciggy before a climb, and beer at the end of the stages...

No, I wasn't alive when that was the TDF. I'm not THAT old.
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