This is sad, really

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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:51 pm

Steam wrote:

Anyway, my main point about how sad it is, is that these guys seem to think they're outstanding upright citizens. Not how nice they are.

Just to clarify! Sorry for the confusion!

Thanks for the clarification, Steam. My apologies if it appeared that I was passing judgment; your post did sound like you were feeling sorry for the scammer. I'm glad to know that you aren't. Very Happy

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:09 pm

<wiping the sweat from my forehead> Cool

That's good to know, Steam. I felt the same way after learning things about the lads, and an open mind (not to be confused with being naive) is one of the greatest assets a baiter can have. You're gonna do just fine here!

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:37 pm

I agree with the majority of posters here.

I've had two long conversations with scammers who, on the face of it, eventually did appear to be genuine enough and admitted that their scamming activities were the only way they could support themselves.

In Nigeria for example, scamming is considered to be acceptable to many - it's more of a culture thing - and the majority of scammers don't consider that they are really doing anything wrong.

Obviously though, in reality, they are doing something wrong and we have to do something about it to prevent as many people from being scammed as possible.

Don't always believe what a lad may tell you - even when you think you have their confidence and they've befriended you. In reality it usually turns out to be false.

Remember that the scammers have ruined the lives of many people and caused heartbreak due to the financial distress they have caused to innocent victims falling for their scams.

Mother Superior Senga
"Fighting The Good Fight Against Spammers & Scammers"
www.sistersofspam.co.uk

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:06 pm

If a rat could talk, I'm sure I could chat with one for ages about how he loves the crusts and porkchop-bones in my dustbin, and how nice it is to come inout of the rain and sit in my kitchen. I'm sure he'd tell me how difficult it is since his family were poisoned, and how lonely it is, and how he looks after his rat-pups with whatever he can find, by any means, and how much he would appreciate my help.

But they can't talk, so I lay poison and when the opportunity presents itself, I shoot them dead myself.

Ethics aside, the possibility of poisining or shooting a scammer is remote at best, so fear, false hope and confusion will have to do instead. It's a decent second best, but the careful psychology we use to convince them to do bizzare stuff is their weapon of choice too.

Now imagine dealing with rats that carry rifles and can dose your coffee powder with strychnine while you sleep.

Keep your shields up and never forget who you're dealing with.

[/rant]

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:06 am

The only thing I feel sorry for, scammer-wise, is that they can be such intelligent people and be such slime. This guy was writing better English than most of us. He failed and backed up his mistakes about as gracefully as anybody could have done.

Not to be overly thoughtful or anything (it's not like the ethics of scambaiting are that deep - obviously these guys are lying foul crooks) but I hate to stoop to their level. I've gotten replies in lad-speak, you know, U MAN DA DAD STOP SCREWIN ROUN ME GO DIE SUMTING and all that crap. Why would I stoop to that?

I'm not buying anything these guys say, please rest assured. My manifesto (a new one I'm making up right now!)

1. Scammers are scum, and are too lazy to get a real job.
2. Scammers destroy lives and ruin people financially.
3. Scammers have no conscience, and do not differentiate between a poor single mother victim, and a wealthy retired man on a yacht.
4. Scammers do not contribute to the welfare of their own economy and environment.
5. If I can cause a scammer to lose money, waste time, get frustrated, cuss at me, and just about go insane, HALLELUJAH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:49 am

Welcome to the facility Steam! Very Happy

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:50 am

steam!

If I came across hard to you, I apologize for that. I don't apologize for speaking the truth.

If communication with scammers makes you feel like you have stooped / fallen to their level, there are other ways to cause lad pain!

Fake Bank and Fake Site killing are great sport (I hear, I'm into pain my self...). Do bait in a way that you are comfortable with, and keep your manifesto close at hand. Very Happy

Scammers are masters at the deceitful crafts and would take to gold from your mouth is they could get to you.

Evil rarely looks like evil at it's first introduction. Then our pride keeps us from calling it by it's real name.

Glad to hear that you are sensible and I look forward to your posts and efforts here.

I agree with a slogan that was around in the 60s and 70s: A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Sad

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:59 am

Tony T wrote:

Lads mostly claim to be Christian. Ask him to quote the bible passage where stealing someone's money is justified. I haven't found it yet.

No theft, but a fun site.
probably NSFW

Mod edit: link removed - offensive to some members - SB

As for how the scammers see themselves. Yes it is different there than here. They think it is Alright an even a great victory to support them.

Then again during a war one side often demonizes the other(often both sides do it too) to make it easier for troops to shoot at fellow human beings.

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:29 pm

If you don't mind a noob stepping into the discussion, I think that Steam's original post was worth posting. The appropriateness of baiting is a topic which should be revisited from time to time so that our motives and our own ethics remain clear.

I have no delusions about my role as a baiter being heroic. My methods are ethically debatable. I lie to people. I attempt to trick them into wasting their resources. I am not nice.

Neither, am I undeterred. There is one primary moral difference, as I see it, between the baiters and scammers. We baiters abide by a code of ethics which we created for ourselves. We don't endanger others, we don't reserve scam for money, etc. The scammers seem to have no such morals. We've yet to find a line which the scammers won't cross for moral reasons. They seem to think that so long as they can think of a way of justifying their actions, they should do those actions.

I lie and cheat because I am working for a greater good. It's not very Christian of me, but I think that I would make a great Toaist.

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:38 pm

Most lads claim to be "Christian" because they believe that their
"customers" in America and Europe are.

Just part of the scam

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:13 pm

@WK : I beg to differ. Lads are religious is most cases. They would even ask god's blessing for the things they do. I know to our standards that sounds unbelievable, but it's true. It's not uncommon for them to scam the last cent out of desperate victims all week, and sit in the church front row on Sunday.

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:48 pm

I suppose that it is one of the main differences between them and us.We wonder about the ethics of what we do,debate them,and collectively impose standards on ourselves.I very much doubt a bunch of lads in the internet cafe have similar conversations.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:20 am

That's true. A lot of these lads (and vlads) are very religious. But just because one is religious doesn't automatically make them a good person.

I've known atheists who are kinder and more honest than some Christians. Unfortunately, depending on which side you are, that doesn't always reflect well on Christianity.

It is funny, though, hearing these lads repeat the stuff they heard in their liturgy last Mass...

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:36 am

Yes, its interesting how religious lads can condone their acts. I often receive mails quoting the following verse from the bible " I can do all things through christ who strengthens me" I guess that means you can also lie and steal from people, and whatever takes your fancy as long as you go to church on sunday. Those people really bother the piss out of me, so I sent one of them the following reply:

Quote:

Exodus 20:15 "Thou Shalt not steal"
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour"

It would be very interesting to know what their reaction would be. If that doesnt deter them, then the lad does not have a religious bone in his body.
It is likely that the religious thing is all part of the scam.
I also had a scammer from Ivory Coast claiming to belong to the "Christ for nation" church. When I made him think he missed out on getting money from me, he sent me an x rated picture as well as a battery of abuse. Does that sound like a religious lad?

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:22 am

Lads have some interesting views on their "careers" to be sure. One lad I baited was close to busting me (it was the 3rd time I baited him), so I came out and "confessed" that I was actually a thief trying to get close to him so I could chop his dolla. When I told him I would get away with stealing from a thief, he replied something (almost exactly like):

"What I do is not stilling here ok. Ppl give me money that's not my fault they are so stupid and greedy." ... followed by a bunch of religious and self-righteous nonsense.

When I prodded him for an explanation, he responded with a bunch of Pidgin insults and ranting. Then I tried to get him to sell his soul to the devil (couldn't think of anything better at the time) he bugged out on me completely. Not once did he indicate the slightest bit of guilt or thought for his victims, but felt genuinely superior to someone trying to do the same to him.

Like Steam said... sad.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:22 am

Quote:

Ppl give me money that's not my fault they are so stupid and greedy

This doesnt surprise me, but as the saying goes "It takes one to know one" If the scammers themselves were not greedy, they wouldnt be scamming. A few thousand dollars in "advance fees" in West Africa is like having a few hundred thousand dollars in Europe or the US, just for sitting on your arse. Its very difficult to image that the scammers are not also greedy.

Quote:

Like Steam said... sad.

I couldnt agree more

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:16 pm

good discussion, i enjoyed reading it.

Quote:

4. Scammers do not contribute to the welfare of their own economy and environment.

this one i would like to comment on. Scammers do contribute to their economy.

go to you tube and type 419 (or similar) into the search. scammers in many of the towns are thought of as a type of robin hood and are often times protected by the locals.

i would imagine it is similar in many impoverished areas of the world.

I'm not convinced what i'm doing is going to make a difference overall, i often times think it's like counting grains of sand. but if i can waste 1, 5, 10, etc. minutes of their life, it's worth it to me.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:53 pm

I guess I was thinking more of how they help their local environment...but not in financial terms. Yeah, they do help the local economy, because after all they have to buy gas for their BMW, but the environment? They're spreading a culture of theft and trickery. No matter how much money you bring in, if you're corrupt at the same time no one wins.

It's funny, I had a guy just tell me "blessings in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost". What's that called? Blasphemy? Very Happy

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:26 pm

I've read that Charlie Manson could be a pretty charming guy at times. No moral dilemmas pecking at his conscience either.

@LostatLove: Excellent example of a heartless, sociopathic thief. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 50

Quote:

If a rat could talk, I'm sure I could chat with one for ages about how he loves the crusts and porkchop-bones in my dustbin, and how nice it is to come inout of the rain and sit in my kitchen. I'm sure he'd tell me how difficult it is since his family were poisoned, and how lonely it is, and how he looks after his rat-pups with whatever he can find, by any means, and how much he would appreciate my help

Hey, please don't compare rats and scammers! I've had many rats as pets and they're much more trustworthy, intelligent and upstanding than scamming scumbags! Laughing

Quote:

I've read that Charlie Manson could be a pretty charming guy at times.

Yes, and Ted Bundy was intelligent, successful, educated, charming and handsome, all traits that made him highly successful at finding victims.

The fact that many people are willing victims (through greed or stupidity or both) of these scammers doesn't excuse the scammers' amoral and criminal behavior. And they ARE criminals! They deserve whatever they get. If they want to humiliate themselves by putting underpants on their heads because they think it will convince someone to give them their last dollar that's their choice. No one is holding a gun to any of their heads.

They're religious and speak of God? Well, so are all the evangelists who deceive and manipulate people least able to afford being conned.

And to people who truly can talk themselves into believing an anonymous stranger on the internet (who doesn't even know their names!) is going to give them 10 million dollars - wise up and stop letting greed overcome any common sense. If you're smart enough to use a computer, then you're smart enough to realize that emails from strangers that start "Dear Beloved" and ramble on ad nauseum about cocoa magnets (sic) or deposed dictators are fraudulent. There's no free lunch. Sorry.

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:39 pm

@AEarhart51:

I admire your conviction, and I certainly won't say you're wrong about the victims, but there is a bit more to it than stupidity on their part. While many victims indeed do need to wake up (let's face it, stupid people are not in short supply), many more just fell for a particular story and got roped in by someone who knows how to push the right proverbial buttons. With the number of lads' formats (modalities) out there, and the fact that a few (not all) of them can really be quite convincing, I'm actually surprised there aren't more real victims out there.

Scam victims are much like any other victims, and are often no more stupid than anybody else. The guy who got run over because he didn't look both ways, the homeowner whose recently-hired renovator made off with $5,000 and trashed the house, the couple who got robbed because they didn't lock their doors, or the woman who didn't leave an abusive husband because he swore it wouldn't happen again are not stupid, they just didn't see it coming beforehand and didn't think it would happen to them. Those are not direct comparisons of course, but there are similarities.

I'm not saying this to critique you AEarhart51, nor am I trying to act all holy and preachy here, and anybody who says you're "blaming the victim" is a troll. I've said almost the exact same thing you did many times... and part of my job is working with crime victims, which should give me a little more sympathy toward them! I can't tell you how to think, but I hope you'll consider the above viewpoint. My mentor taught me this. Very Happy

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:02 am

It is naive to think that all scam victims are gullible, dumb and greedy, it certainly isn't always the case although it sometimes is.

Obi put it quite nicely above, I have dealt with a few victims and while some should be kept well away from an internet connection, others are quite smart and certainly not greedy, we all have our weaknesses, lads by sheer numbers and practice will find those weaknesses and happily exploit them

Master Baiter Joined: 07 Sep 2004 Posts: 209

3. Scammers have no conscience, and do not differentiate between a poor single mother victim, and a wealthy retired man on a yacht.

So it's somehow morally better to steal a Porsche than a third-hand Yugo? I don't I understand that mentality. My father is retired and relatively wealthy compared to many I suppose, but he worked damn hard (physically) for fifty-odd years to pay for the house, the pension and the Beamer and I don't want some scamming bastard ripping him off.

Wannabe Baiter Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 95

It's a bit silly to use the lads' circumstances and cultural norms as excuses. If that's the case, then their culture is self destructive and needs to change from within. But it's easier to keep on stealing and blame westerners for all their problems rather than actively pursuing change at home and sticking their necks out.

You can come from dire circumstances and still remain honest and ethical. They don't HAVE to scam, they choose to because it's the easiest alternative, and they are lazy and selfish.

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:07 am

solomongrundy wrote:

So it's somehow morally better to steal a Porsche than a third-hand Yugo? I don't I understand that mentality.

No, I wasn't quite getting at that. Yet I would say that, ethically, ruining some poor single mother's life is much more cruel, cold, and reprehensible than tricking some rich guy into losing a few hundred bucks. Doesn't make either right or less wicked though.

I drive a Mercedes (okay, well...it's an ancient one!) but in all honesty I would rather have it stolen out from under me, than have someone swipe my struggling neighbor's '91 Caprice. With the economy as bad as it is, a lot of these poor people with good intentions but too much gullibility can be hurt badly.

Anyway. I'm sure you get my point. Very Happy