Two Scambaiting rules I would like to discuss with you

By joining our community you will have the ability to post topics and access other forums reserved for members. Registration is quick, simple and absolutely free. Join our community today by clicking here.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:43 am

Dear colleagues (I dare call you like this...),

I just want to express my opinion on a couple of Scambaiting Rules.
Quote:
�Question: What do I do when my scammer wants my passport?

Answer: We don't encourage sending fake passports anymore, as they can be 'recycled' by scammers in their future scams.�

Well, hope it is just an advice and not a strict rule, as I used to find on internet specimen passports and modify them in order to host my characters� name, even before finding this site. I am quite new in scambaiting so maybe I am estimating too much the value of sending a fake passport in order to keep longer the mugu into the trap. But I think that an absolutely fake passport (for instance, one of a no-longer-existing State as USSR or with counterfeited features) should not help too much a typical scammer, if the nationality and/or the names are, let�s say, incoherent with the usual scammer�s features. I mean: I used greek, latvian and USA passports. A scammer depicting himself as an ivorian, a nigerian or another �classic� nationalities used so far would hardly could present himself as an holder of such a passport.
It is true that nothing will grant that the scammer will use all the details contained in the specimen passport changing the story (a widow of a greek general or of a USA merchant of diamonds kidnapped in Sierra Leone...mmmmmhhhh...). But this will require additional complications that I don�t think they will be likely to bear (we know how are they lazy).

Another point is: �we do not involve innocent third parties�, and, when it is about real people, I agree. But somebody also included parties as �the McDonald�s or the White House�. Slow down. It is important to build a sense of confidence in the mugu, in order to keep it busy as long as possible. If we do not send any proof that we are some real guy about to be fooled�I think our chance of success would decrease drastically.
We know those people are not interested in our personal details (except your bank account), they just will try to do some harm after having been fooled for months, and then, if I, living in the UK, gave them the telephone number of a McDonald�s in Colorado or the White House address�what can they do bad to those targets? They will find out that have been fooled - twice.
But if you really want to keep hold on this point, may we at least give the address of, say, a public Park? Unless we want to consider Hyde Park as an �innocent third party��  Very Happy

I am interested to know what do you think on these two points, especially from the most experienced ones, the admins, etc.
Have a nice day.
Manfred

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:56 am

Well, I hope you'll accept the input from a non-mod...

Answer: We don't encourage sending fake passports anymore, as they can be 'recycled' by scammers in their future scams.

Perhaps there's some merit in your case, but on the whole I prefer to give the Lads nothing. Victims aren't as analytical as we are, and aren't looking for reasons to mistrust the Lads; quite the reverse. That's why giving them any ID isn't a good thing to do.

�we do not involve innocent third parties�

To my mind, this is more of a guideline. There have been discussions about whether Western Union staff might be at risk from angry scammers. It's best to minimise the exposure of ITPs, if only on grounds of courtesy. I'm sure that no-one likes to have someone swear at him or her because someone rings for Phil McCrackin and s/he answers in all truthfulness that there's no-one of that name there.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:14 pm

Regarding the passport question. If it's good enough to fool a lad, it's good enough to fool a victim. Why give a lad ammo he can potentially use to scam another person? We've seen fake passports that were sent to lads by baiters being reused as part of their scams, so we know for sure it's happening.

As for involving innocent third parties, it comes down to common sense. No lad would risk threatening a WU worker if the money isn't there as it would kill his means to collect his money in the future should he get banned. Likewise, you're not going to see a lad try to extract revenge on President Bush because we gave him the address of the White House as part of the bait. However, common sense says you don't give them the address of your old neighbour and claim it's yours, even if they did annoy you by playing their music too loud at night.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:35 pm

Passports and ID's

The average lad asks for a passport or ID because his script is written for him and he just passes it on. He doesnt really care about the passport, it just confirms to him that he has a victim on the hook. That is why we get away with a renames .dll file so often. The lad might protest he can't open it, but as that is always his fault, he forgets all about it and the bait continues.

Then you have the serious lad who does care about the passport. He will replace the picture of the real owner with his, or a pic of a fellow countryman.
Then he sets up a new email address ([email protected]) sends the scan of the passport to a new victim pretending to be a UK barrister.

Innocent 3rd Parties.

Again, what does the lad want an address for? Unless he is running a check scam on you, he is not going to send you anything is he? Make one up. Fake road, fake county, England, fake postcode.
If you are intending to be supplied with something, cheques, pictures, goods, then a drop box is the answer - Buy a Premium Membership. You get your name in a fancy colour.

Look at it from this point of view.

Are you prepared to use your real name and address?
If not why not?

well those same reasons should apply to the ITP.

Happy baiting

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:38 pm

1) We don't send the scumbags anything, however remotely funny somebody might think it is, if it can be recycled. Not everybody in the world knows who John Wayne is, for instance.

2)No third party addresses, not even The White House or your local LEA. They have better things to do.

The imagination is a wonderful thing, if you use it. That is one of the joys of this 'hobby', and why I like it so much.

Baiting Guru Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3193

We don't encourage sending fake passports anymore, as they can be 'recycled' by scammers in their future scams.

It is true that passports can be found with a quick Google search. The lads do not necessarily know that. (I'm sure that nobody tells them.) However if baiters sent a passport as soon as it was asked for then there would be a lot more of them, and they would be circulating in scammer circles.

Although a single baiter passport is probably no great harm, we do owe it to the real victims of the scammers not to make life harder than it already is. We are fighting this crime not aiding it, and providing a scammer with ID that he can use may counteract all the good that baiting him has done.

Also consider how you would feel if you found that some victim had lost more money than they could afford, and that your passport had been used to convince them to pay.

we do not involve innocent third parties

We owe it to third parties, and particularly to law enforcement and legislative bodies not to make their life harder so that we can have our bit of fun. Nobody at McDonalds will enjoy coping with mail from a scammer, and just maybe that mail will be handled by someone that might get involved in the scam and become a victim. The only reason that the lads ever need a real address is to send cheques to it. Those cheques are dangerous; they can ruin lives and we have no right to expose an innocent party to them.

Consider for a moment what needs to be done if those cheques are received unsolicited by a police station, an FBI office or the Whitehouse. Almost certainly some poor clerk, agent or officer is going to have to spend maybe an hour or more dealing with them. If they have to do that several times a week, imagine what they say the next time someone asks them how useful scambaiters are.

There is no need ever to use a real address other than a safe drop box. It is trivial to invent a false address that will fool a lad. The only advantage in using a real address is the humour, and that is trivial beside the danger and inconvenience it may cause.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:04 pm

It doesn't mean you can't milk them for laughs.

If they ask for a passport, send them a picture of a terrapin off the web. When they ask, tell them that it's what the word 'passport' means in Serbo-Croat.

I promise you. The next time I bait as a Russian model I'll try it. Very Happy

then send them a scan of a bill for a meal. I have one I can use. Rinse and repeat until they cry.

There's no fun in doing exactly what they say. Misunderstanding or ignoring them is part of the fun. It's really funny when they get frustrated and desperate.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:06 pm

I thank you very much all for your reply so far.
As for the point 1), I did not consider this side of the story. I laughed out of my guts at the poor quality of the lads' fake passports, but if I think about on how good, compared to them, are "my" passports, and that there are some people fooled even by the poorest ones...It is true I can generate more harm than I can avert.
2) I think I have been misunderstood. I stressed the point on the absolutely fake adresses, just to avoid the situations you envisaged (especially the lady thud419).

Baiting Guru Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3193

If mail can be delivered, then it is delivered to a real person, be it a McDonald's manager, a Whitehouse intern or a park groundsman. If it cannot be delivered, then it is a fake address, like we recommend using.

I have no idea whether mail can be delivered to a public park. I doubt it can but wouldn't be surprised if it could, and it might depend on which park you chose.

If, as you suggest, you give the address of a McDonalds, and then you bait the lad very successfully, so that he is willing to either pay someone or pull in a favour to teach you a lesson, do you want three big men with tire irons walking into that McDonalds and demanding to speak to your baiting character? Maybe they just wait until it's closed and then spray-paint threats or smash all the windows.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:41 pm

I'll address the ITP rule, because I get sick of hearing about it. (That doesn't mean your question, I am referring to people who think that the ants on the ground that gets stomped on while the lad walks to WU are ITPs)

Not involving ITPs means not putting non-lads in harm's way or severely inconveniencing them. That means, the baiter should not give lads the address or phone number of some innocent person. The baiter should not encourage the lad to harm someone. The baiter shouldn't tell the lad that the money is located at the house of some innocent person. That's what it is. Keeping innocent people safe.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:50 pm

I don't think a letter can be delivered to a park. Neither I think possible that our lads take the plane from Lagos to Colorado in order to "teach a lesson" to somebody has fooled them. But if it were possible it would be great: as happened in the TWAT plan, it can be used as a way to fool even more our lads: what if they go to Canada or Finland just to find out that the town where the character lives...does not even exist?

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:19 pm

The possibilty of lads making a trip to teach someone a lesson is as you say unlikely.......

But it is not unheard of for lads to have contacts within the US, Canada, UK etc.
We know from experience that some of them have friends and family and associated who will help with the scams.

I guess that you would have to really seriously upset them, but if they have mates local to you, they could risk paying you a visit. That is not a chance worth taking IMO.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:46 pm

In almost 100% of my baits (25+ now) I have never had a lad comeback and ask for a clear passport picture after sending them garbled junk (.dll file) with a .jpg file type. I send it twice if they insist and usually they come back with a "thanks for the picture" and that is the end of that. It's the M T ( N that they cannot let go of, sheez ya think they were trying to scam me or something...

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:10 pm

If the public park has a building or any type of monitored facilities (pool, ball courts, etc.) then there is an employee that could conceivably be there to accept mail.

If it's like most of the parks in Houston, which are little more than a few picnic tables scattered in a grassy field, you could probably use that as an address with minimal risk to an ITP. But good luck finding an actual address... the post office is unlikely to assign one to a picnic table Wink

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:04 pm

@VR

Why assume that all lads are in West Africa? 70% of the cheques I receive are posted in downtown Toronto. Thats a lot of mugus within easy travelling distance of a lot of people. Chances are you won't piss them off sufficiently to make them think about coming round to your house but do you want to take that risk?

I check where all my couriered fake cheques come from. Lots from Chicago, Texas, NY etc. What that means is that lads are everywhere. Thats what the ITP rule is about!

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:24 pm

re. fake passports: lots of time to make. Poor economy apart fromother considerations.

Addresses: I use fake ones that will be undeliverable. Then I will slap my lads when stuff doesn't turn up.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:30 pm

Quote:

....Neither I think possible that our lads take the plane from Lagos to Colorado in order to "teach a lesson" to somebody has fooled them.

They don't have to. They may well have global contacts, so why take the risk, minuscule as it might seem. The scumballsacks are everywhere including my local pub. I know who he is. I know is in the country illegally. At the end of the day your own personal safety is paramount.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:40 pm

Can't remember the baiter's name, but someone used a work fax to send crap to their mugus. Someone did turn up at his work place asking to speak to the character named. I doubt it was to pat him on the back because the lad had a good laugh.

As for passports, do a search here for Wang Qing. He started out as a baiter's jokey passport sent to a lad.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:34 pm

@ Tommo
I am not afraid of my personal safety (neither you should be) as I know that the best a private fellow can do is tracking the IP to the city of the ISP. Well, even if my mugu is able to come to Rome or Amsterdam (or to send some penpal willing to do him a favor), he should possess medianic powers to find where and who I am. All I do (and thanks for the tips found also in this site) is never to leave the lesser hint on my real identity (e-mail address linked to me, personal info on other sites where I could use the avatar or nickname used here or as a baiter). The CIA or the MI5 could do more, but I don't think this is our mugus' case. At least hope so...they should have better (or worse) to do, in my opinion.

@Jojobean
Sorry for posting about a matter already discussed. But some aspects of scambaiting, and especially safety and anonimity, are not always obvious for a newcomer. And I am grateful to all of you for opening my eyes on really potentially risky actions that I am not going, henceforth, to repeat.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:46 pm

^^^^

As I said, my comment was directed at you. It was a legit question. It's just that any time a lad does ANYTHING, there are inevitably people who start pissing and moaning about the slightest possibility that the lad might involve some ITP. It is a real concern, but people often take it too far. There were many who were concerned about the driver in the Abeche, Chad bait. They raised a real concern, which didn't bother me one bit. It's just that sometimes people get too concerned about little things that don't really matter. Your question was a good one, sorry if my response made it seem that I was coming down on you.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:52 pm

vonRichtofen wrote:

sending a fake passport in order to keep longer the mugu into the trap. But I think that an absolutely fake passport (for instance, one of a no-longer-existing State as USSR

Welcome to Eater, Manfred Very Happy

There are probably millions of people who only have their Soviet passport because their nationality is still unclear. Besides, in many countries you can use an old passport to prove your identity in certain situations.

I've also noticed on my travels that even official looking persons (for example border guards) may get confused with my (not fake Cool

) passport if they use different alphabets in their country.

Niagara

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:00 pm

Dionysius wrote:

As for passports, do a search here for Wang Qing. He started out as a baiter's jokey passport sent to a lad.

Or Milo Minderbinder - same deal.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:17 pm

for my addresses that i give the lads, it is the median strip of a almost local interstate highway. we dont build anything in the median strip, as to avoid someones house geting crashed into by a tractor trailer, so they wont deliver mail there either, unless the postman is a literbug Wink

i dont want my family hurt over this, and dont want anybody else to get hurt, it is fun for me. and if the lads loose a bit of sleap, ill just have my master call them as satan, and realy blow their mind. if you loose a bait over not sending a pasport, and the .dll file dosnt work, rember they are like doritos. Crunch all you want. theyll make more.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:26 pm

I know this thread is well answered already, but about the parks thing...

Hyde Park is a Royal Park, and has residential, administrative and commercial properties on it. Even if the mail doesn't go to one of those offices, it'll go/end up at the Royal Parks' main office. All the real addresses are owned by somebody, even if it is the royal estate!

The good news is that a few years ago, the Royal Mail had a policy change, undelivered mail with no return address is now destroyed (as opposed to being opened to find a return address), so a fictional address (999 Letsby Avenue, etc) is as good as destroyed mail...and lets your creative juices flow Wink

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:45 pm

Does giving the SS # of dead people count as 3rd party?

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/

Two Scambaiting rules I would like to discuss with you	View next topic View previous topic