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 a 419 victim who's really a 419er?!

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ryder
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi guys,

Just noticed this, a 419 "victim" who's really a 419er?!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/13/419_victim/

Might be worth asking the register for details. Would certainly make an interesting bait! Any thoughts?

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Tsnerd
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm not sure why you would want to bait a victim?

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ryder
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

lol, you honestly believe this guy is really a victim?

..and I thought I was gullible!
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Im up in the air on this... for some reason it strikes me that it could be a scam.. like those one that try to get your money back after you have been scammed.

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Donato
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@Tsnerd-i think the op is referring to the debate in the comments section as to whether this a new type of 419 scam.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/13/419_victim/comments/

edit to add

@ryder
Quote:
lol, you honestly believe this guy is really a victim?

..and I thought I was gullible!

Do you have any proof either way-I'm guessing not. Also as one of the comments said, in fact a comment from someone running the site

Quote:
I don't actually think that this is a "419 mark II".

It's been sent to an online IT rag - not individuals. Not the best move if you're wanting gullible types, but a reasonable move if you want advice, especially considering the number of associated topics El Reg has covered over the years.

It doesn't ask for money - just advice.

It includes contact details.

I reckon it's either genuine, or a publicity hoax ("let's see if they'll fall for this, ho ho"), but it doesn't come over as a "please send me money" type. Assuming it's been reproduced in full...

Assuming it's genuine, the guy's dad has been an idiot. But remember that thousands of people fell for this scam in *this* country, where we have ready access to information about the scam in question, and scams in general - in India that's not as much the case, and the money involved is worth a lot more than it is here - so the dad would have been less aware of the dangers than a comparable person here, and the rewards would have seemed greater.

I think of everyone involved in this other than the poster of the letter/email then he would know the most. Yes we can give our opinions and some may say advice wanted and some may say scam-but this is why if you are baiting someone and anything raises a flag-you asem (or bait) them from another address and see how they reply.

Also with China and India coming on-line and the lack of victims in the West-due in part to the work we are doing-scammers are going to be targeting vics in the developing world far more in the coming years-just think, 10yrs ago how many more people fell for this kind of thing in Europe and the America's. That's roughly where China and India stand now.

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Last edited by Donato on Tue May 13, 2008 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tsnerd
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yes.

That is what tends to happen to victims. They get sucked into believing the scam, convinced that they will receive tons of money. They will borrow from their friends, family and acquaintances or take out mortgages on their houses, and rationalize that they will be able to pay it all back.

There is nothing in that letter that indicates that it is nothing else but an account of that guy's father digging a gigantic hole for himself. The advice offered by Mr. Haines was spot on.

edit: @ Donato- if so, he needs to clarify that.

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ryder
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Do you have any proof either way?

well, I obviously don't. However, I do have the advantage having lived in India on multiple occasions and I am also of Indian origin.

So I can tell you this much. This letter doesn't have your usual "hindish" grammatical mistakes which almost all your average Indians who are english literate commonly make.

Not only this, but it contains all the usual hallmarks of a 419 scam.

Religion: The father who is a so called 'preacher'
The Hook: help us or we commit suicide, save our family.
Money: We need money, okay so they haven't asked for it....YET. Do all 419ers ask for money in the first correspondence? No. I've had a few lads emailing me BS for weeks before asking for money.
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Tsnerd
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm curious how many victims you've dealt with that also say the same type of things, regardless of nationality?

Quote:
Do you have any proof either way? well, I obviously don't.


Which brings me back to my original question, which was "I'm not sure why you would want to bait a victim?" You inferred that I was gullible. I would point out that without proof of a scam, people asking for help should be given the benefit of the doubt.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

How very sad. There is no way this is a scammer, but rather an account from a son, on his father being scammed. The good and bad thing is that the site did not post his email address. He is bound to get a letter from the EFCC with a recovery format.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You can safely bait this one: http://www.urgentmessage.org/highlyconfidential/_l80630.html

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I myself am not saying weather its is or is not a scammer just my feelings is something doesnt feel right but it could be just me being overly cautise. from the little bit of baiting I have done and all the other stuff I have read, I have now gotten a little more sceptical of what I read. I try to pause a little more and feel it out to make sure that something is on the up and up.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Why would anybody bait somebody like this? Yes, there's a small chance that it could be a scammer. All sorts of things are possible. But we aren't sure. It's quite likely that the person who wrote that is really the son of a 419 victim, as he states.

Don't we have an obscene amount of genuine, definitely-from-scammers e-mails in Surplus and our catcher accounts? Of course we do, I'm sorry to say. So...why not go after them? We know good and well that they're lads.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If there is the slightest doubt,then why risk it?My catcher account is overflowing,and my RL e mail account intercepts tons of 419 garbage.Plenty of blatant fish to bait,if there is any doubt then why bother?

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

It's easy to be cynical of any kind of email asking for anything, especially if you've done a little time here. Generally, that's a healthy thing, but as others have said, that letter IS consistent with what happens to victims who fall hard for these scams. Assuming it's all true, if I were in that guy's shoes, I'd probably do the exact same thing. Assuming it is a new flavor of scam, I doubt it would be very successful. Most people will probably react the way you did ryder, with disbelief, or with little sympathy for anyone who could be so gullible.





edit: typo

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Last edited by luckey on Wed May 14, 2008 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

As another who has had quite a bit of contact with RL scam victims, I can say that the letter posted is consistent with what happens to many who fall hard for the dream the scammers feed them. It is (unfortunately) very common for a truly hooked vic to borrow from friends and family once the scammer has sucked every last penny from them. Evil or Very Mad

I don't see a scam here, I see a truly ruined victim.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

If I am a preacher with $50,000 living in India don't you think I would be using it to help my congregation? I smell a scam here.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Here's my first tirade ...

Nobody could ever fall for a scam this plausible? Could they?

And, of course, they would never fall for a rich, widower coffee merchant, poisoned by his diplomat brother, calling his teenage soon-to-be orphan son to his death bead ... to reveal the existence of a secret bank account funded by fraudulent overpayments to unclaimed Siberian BMW lottery winners and Junior must sneak the money out of the country by emailing hundreds of strangers 1/2 way around the world from his new refugee camp home.

I'm with Ryder - this is a scam. Outside of the reasons mentioned before, look at the logic of it. The whole thing is highly unlikely.

Quote:
Try this email, which arrived this morning at Vulture Central

The Register said the story arrived by email. Nothing more. Yet ...
(1) The last stories written using the phrase "419 scam" were in 9/07, 11/07 and 2/08. Each of these had the ability to post comments, but the inquiry came thru email.
(2) Search Google for "419 scam"; the first Register entry is 44th on the list. Plenty of more logical places for a desperate Indian to go before sending an email to a UK paper who's last 419 story was 3 months ago.
(3) Key snips from the letter appear nowhere else on the web. This is the ONLY place son went to post for help? Again, unlikely.
(4) The email was addresses to Dear Sirs. If it was targeted to a person ... as the most logical submission would be to an author of a 419 related article, it would not be addressed to Dear Sirs, plural.

Quote:
My father is a preacher in India

This is an interesting claim. According to Wikipedia, 2.4% of India's population is Christian (most common association with 'preacher'). US and Europe have the lowest priest/parishioner ratio at 1 to 1200; Africa it is 1 to 4000. As India is heavily non-Christian, lets assume a simple 1 to 2000 ratio. That would place this guy somewhere in .0012% of the population. Then consider he had to have internet access ... which only 7% of Indians will have by 2011 (Jupiter Research). So, not impossible, but there aren't many Christian Indian Preachers with internet access.

[quote]dad sent about 50,000 dollars to south Africa expecting a lump sum of money/quote]
More improbability. Kerala is one of India's most heavily Christian states (20% of pop). It's also among the most developed, westernized and wealthy. A good candidate for where 'dad' is from. Even as one of the wealthiest state, the per capita GDP is INR11,800 or about US$282. So this guy sent approx. 177x the per capita GDP. Converted to UK standard, that's about 2.9mm (177x 16,369) and in the US, about US$7.8mm. That's a boat load of cash from Sunday's collection plate. Then he took another 70x GDP with him to Gambia?

Quote:
sent about 50,000 dollars to south Africa ... another 20,000 dollars

Now, the US dollar is quote popular the world over but I find it somewhat unlikely that an Indian national (rupees) would submit an explanation to a UK tech site (pound sterling) that is denominated in dollars.

Quote:
He even went to Gambia with his friends ... Now all the people who lent him money are not believing what my dad is saying

Inconsistent story w/ in 2 sentences.

Quote:
we dont have any other way except to suicide

Suicide is severely frowned upon in both Christianity and Hinduism. Not a likely path for a priest to take ... or to take his family on with him. What did they do? Have a family meeting to discuss the flavor of Kool-Aid?

Quote:
My dad gave post dated cheques to all the people who lent us money ... You will save all the lives in our family if you could help us ... Awaiting your reply.

translated: go to western union. send the mtcn number. i am waiting urgently. god bless.

Of course, none of this proves anything. But add logic/analysis to Ryder's hallmarks ... and I'd bet my next trunkbox windfall this is a real as the 3 lotteries I won last week.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^ A little over analyzing, don't you think? There are scam victims that come off like scammers because of language differences and barriers. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that this person is a lad.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I quite like this response to the post on The Register...

Quote:
You've been conned out of a significant amount of money and are feeling suicidal do you contact:

A) The Police.

B) The Samaritans.

C) El Reg

D) 419Eater.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Allowing for all the foregoing arguements above, how exactly could the scammer (maybe) hope to benefit from a publication in El Reg? There are no email or contact details published so... what... the scammer wants the editor, reporters, IT dept. and mail room of the register all to contribute to a whip around and send it off to India? Highly unlikely.

If it is a scam mail then it has hit a dead end and was one of the dumbest approaches yet.

But then again, maybe it is a scam... "help the 419 victim recover his/her losses and save my family".

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ryder
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

"one of the dumbest approaches yet?"

I'd have to disagree. The reason why I decided to bring this to the attention of 419eater is because I saw a switch. A switch from usual targeting of the greedy opportunistic / lonely hearts, to one which preys on the sympathetic. A good salesman is taught to adapt his sales technique to suit his audience. Here we have a 419er widening his net with a story which seems so plausible even hardened 419eater readers seem to believe it! So is it really so dumb? Consider how many charitable people in the western world. Yeah sure, nobody is going to send $50,000 in one shot. But I suspect a few emails down the line they'll be a request for "financial assistant" which sit perfectly within the western union money transfer limit. Hence the call for a follow up.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This thread should have had a poll attached.

I've read the srticle about 3 times, along with the comments and the arguements put forward in this thread, and I have to say, I'm edging towards "Scam", but only just. If I read it again I'll probably vote "Victim". Confused

My head hurts and I'm going to sit in the dark and think about this.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:06 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

another good line in the comments:

david g wrote:
Show us the headers !

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Actually, after much reflection, I think that this is most probably a GOOD approach letter, but, the destination of the mail seems to me to be a bit odd unless it fell into El Reg's mail box as part of a general spam send.

The very fact that it has created so much debate here about its authenticity indicates that there is potential in this kind of approach.

A reaction to the general awareness of 419 seeping into the public consciousness might be forcing a change of tack amongst the lads.

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I wonder how many of these people are scammers: Scamwarners Link

This guy was probably a lad too: Eater Link

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