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 Forced to take holiday entitlement for bank holidays etc...

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Ivorbiggon
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Joined: 06 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hello! long time since I posted here...still a lurker though.

just wondering if anyone knows anything about employment law?

My wife works as an administrator in an office. She has just recently received her holiday entitlement for 2008 which has seen an increase to 28 days.

The thing is the company has sent round a memo to all staff saying that all public holidays i.e easter, all bank holiday mondays, christmas day, boxing day and new years day need to be taken out of their holiday entitlement. She is now left with 17 days to take as and when she wants which is a decrease from last year.

Can the company do this? They shut anyway over easter and bank holidays and xmas. is this legal?
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kubis
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I dont know if it is legal, but if they get away with it ,kick the arse out of taking sickies

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Nanny Ogg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Are you in the EU?

Theres a working time directive that should give you minimum entitlements.

Is your wife in a union, if so I think it's one for them to deal with.

It seems unfair for a company to arbitarily change holidays
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bearkat419
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

In the U.S., certain holidays are considered national holidays and the company cannot force employees to consider them "vacation" days. However, many have responded by simply saying that employees don't get paid for days the company is closed for holidays Rolling Eyes

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Ivorbiggon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

@ Nanny Ogg - I live in the UK and unfortunately no she's not in a union.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029788

just found this website that pretty much answers my question... looks like it's only just changed in Oct 2007.
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D11
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:18 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Yup companies love that ruling, it saves them a fortune in pay.

Have her check her contract, if she signed it before oct 2007 then she might well be in contract for "x amount of paid holiday not including bank holidays and national ones" some companies might not have urgently updated the contracts yet, in which case she wins and the company is held to the original contract.

But with jobs these days its best not to rock the boat, perhaps some stiff negotiations but dont push it too hard.

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eamonn
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

D1 is correct but AIUI the problem comes if the company says "ok, we're varying your contract by changing XYZ". You then have to either accept the variation or leave and sue the company for breach of contract. If you do nothing, then you are deemed to have accepted the changes.

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Puq
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
if the company says "ok, we're varying your contract by changing XYZ".



Nope, they cannot do this. A change in contract whilst in the employment of a Company ( which has not been bought out, changed hands etc etc ) is contravening the Employment Act without giving notice of one week per employed year. At the end of the notice period, the employee then gives his decision on whether or not the change in contract is acceptable. If unacceptable, call in ACAS.

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eamonn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:51 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Puq wrote:
At the end of the notice period, the employee then gives his decision on whether or not the change in contract is acceptable. If unacceptable, call in ACAS.


And if the employer tells ACAS to take a running jump ?

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Old No. 7
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^^^^

Unfair dismissal, even if constructive.

And UK industrial tribunals love sticking it to companies who ignore arbitration or ride roughshod over employees' contracts. Companies usually settle, as the employee fights for free and cannot have costs awarded, but it can cost companies a fortune in representation, lost management time, bad publicity in local press, etc.

If you are really serious about this, Ivor, it might be as well to talk to an employment lawyer. The effect on a jobsworth manager of having an employee call a meeting and have her lawyer present could seriously focus the manager's attention. A lot will depend on what is in her contract, and perhaps what has been custom and practice to that point. I'm not an expert, but I believe that custom and practice can constitute part of a contract, even if not written down, if adopted over time. Varying these established practices can then require the formal contract renegotiation.

She'd have to realize that she'd never make employee of the month ever again, though

<Edit> So a lot depends on how much she loves her job and how easily she could get another. Kicking off legally can often be the start of a process where the employee and company part company, the company paying for the privilege (including holiday, notice, etc etc.) If the employeegoes into this with their eyes open, lives through the turmoil, eventually leaves on a Friday and starts a new job on the Monday......result Smile

Never resign on principle though - that's the ultimate "get off free" card for the employer.

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Hekate
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

She should speak to the CAB.

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remmy223
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

ivorbiggon

my employer does exactly the same by tie ing my holidays to bank holidays.
this is a normal excersise for companies to do this.
i work shifts so i am not sure if this is applicable to your case.

i have 28 days holidays and so many days are tied leaving me with 16 floating days to be taken at my pleasure.funny thing is i always have 16 floating days every year.

i have just read your first posting and yes they can do this.as the government/EC made a ruling that these holidays ie bank holidays/easter/xmas must now be paid.since your wife didnt work these days in the past did she get paid for them??
now she is getting paid.

what needs to be check is what 'other' days have been tied,what companies do is lets say xmas falls on a friday they will tie another day to the thursday.using one more of your holidays WHEN they want you to.this is normally done under negotiations with employees representatives.

hope this helps

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Puq
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:22 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
And if the employer tells ACAS to take a running jump ?


Rolling Eyes I presume that was a joke. No employer in their right mind will do this.
ACAS plays the definitive role in ensuring that statutory rights are upheld as well as contractual ones. They are not to be trifled with.

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FUCK U, FUCK UR PAPA FUCK YA MAMA!SAY THANKS ,IDIOT.i have told u not to bother me aagain or have i not.....foolish idiot.I have another person that will help us do this and it is non of YA FUCKING BUSINESS.ASS HOLE.
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Old No. 7
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:54 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^
Sorry Pug, I have to disagree. Some regard ACAS as a toothless tiger. Extracts from their website:

Our role is to help find a solution that both sides find acceptable instead of going to a tribunal hearing. We don't impose solutions, but will try to help you settle your differences on your own terms. This process is known as conciliation.

we are not part of the Employment Tribunal Service. Conciliation does not delay the tribunal process. What you say during conciliation can't be used as evidence against you at a tribunal hearing.

And, most importantly:

What happens if we can't reach agreement?

If you can't reach agreement on a tribunal complaint, and the complaint is not withdrawn, it will be decided by a tribunal. If the claim is of unfair dismissal, or is under the flexible working regulations, it can be decided by an arbitrator if both sides prefer.


So they may not actually say "take a running jump", but the actual result could be the same. Not only that, but the employer could simply refuse arbitration, or go through the motions.

The final decision would be made by a tribunal, and thence into the legal system for those with deep pockets

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Puq
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^ Actually , it's Puq, not Pug Cool

The disclaimers shown are covering all aspects in practically every eventuality, which is normal. Believe me, they are not paper tigers and are a real and valuable aid to disgruntled employees who have genuine grievances and are not to be discounted. IMHO and hands-on experiences.

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FUCK U, FUCK UR PAPA FUCK YA MAMA!SAY THANKS ,IDIOT.i have told u not to bother me aagain or have i not.....foolish idiot.I have another person that will help us do this and it is non of YA FUCKING BUSINESS.ASS HOLE.
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