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 Legality of Scambaiting

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irishemigrant
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Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^ The ITP rule applies

No Independent Third Parties

Get them sent there, what happens, you tie up the LEO's with timewasting
investigations that lead nowhere

Better to apply for a safe box, get the cheques, try to track the printer then send the info to the appropriate person

Never involve ITP's

The game has got to the stage where people are murdered for going to Lagos/Sth Africa/etc over scams

Never ever involve ITP's

edit: Cachuma is always faster than me

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Last edited by irishemigrant on Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kubis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It would get some bad cheques out of circulation
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irishemigrant
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Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ it gets them out of circulation, if you get them sent to a bogus address

Having them sent to a LEO address?

I've seen vics caught from having cheques sent to a supposedly bogus addess, some have been LEO people

Remove the temptation, make sure if you are having bogus cheques sent, it is to somewhere that no ITP can get them

A drop box is the ideal situation, and if you wish to go this route, then I suggest you do the necessary to get one

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kubis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Will they send cheques to a PO BOX number
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irishemigrant
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Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:11 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ Yes,

May I suggest that you take a few hours out now, and read the stickies that are liberally applied throughout this forum,

The main one I would suggest is

"Apply for a Mentor"

Then wait till you have someone to talk to and ask for personal advice

In the meantime, I would suggest any Stickie with an exclamation mark, any thread started by a member with an orange nic, any thread started by a member with a 12 month date of joining

And a healthy knowledge of Discworld, and Armageddon the trilogy helps, Barry the Sprout may not always be there for you

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kubis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks for your advice Irish
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irishemigrant
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Joined: 22 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:55 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

you are more than welcome

cross border talks work

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Not all the time Wink
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leeuwen
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Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 126


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

There are numerous ways of approaching this. There is the theoratical side and the practical side.

In theory, it depends on the situation. Did you really said to him he was suppose to get money from you in exchange for the service he provided?
To take shivers baids as an example he has gotten artwork as part of a scholarship program. He never said they would receive money in exchange for the artwork. Just that they needed an artwork to fullfill an scholarship application.
The fact that the artwork isn't even made by the person applying for the scholarship can never make it a legal matter.
Yet is you would litterally say: "Get me xxx in exchange for xxx amount of money" and he would do it you could say that there is a change there might be a case. But even then they suffer from the same kind of problem victims suffer: that they did it out of free will. Nobody forced them to do the things they do. It's hardly common sense to trust the word of a stranger they've met on the internet.
Then there is ofcourse also the problem of jurisdiction. Is this an affair for the government the scammer lives or the scambaiter?

But then there is the practical side. For a lawsuit you require two vital things: The real identity of the scammer and the real identity of the baiter. Now this is what really makes the change of a lawsuit near to impossible. For a scammer to come forward is a huge risk. By revealing his identity and his participation in a certain scam could pave the way for a huge number of lawsuits from his victims or even a possible arrest. He would also put his gang in risk, which is something they would never allow.
Then there is the thing of the scambaiter's identity. He wouldn't have a clue where to look. If you bait carefully he couldn't even be able to pinpoint the country you're in, let alone your identity. It would take a huge amount of effort to track a responsible scambaiter down.

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irishemigrant
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
In the meantime, I would suggest any Stickie with an exclamation mark, any thread started by a member with an orange nic, any thread started by a member with a 12 month date of joining

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manbiteslion
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

No ITP's, I hear ya, just one though though - would a bank be better than a LEO - spotting and dealing with stolen cheques is a part of their line of business, it hastens their ability to monitor/warn accounts, means their fraud guys have more to go on, and they are probably the safest people on earth to know how to destroy (or retain for evidence) illegal cheques??
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kleindoofy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

If you have a lad send a (fake) check to a bank, all that will happen is that some secretary or low level clerck will shake his/her head and chuck it.

The answer has already been given: use one of the Eater drop boxes. We love checks.
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FerryCorsten
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Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:42 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hey everyone, thanks for all the info.

I've been thinking about the argument that many people made of the scammer not knowing who to prosecute. In my case there are only two ways (in theory) he or anyone could find out my true identity:

Option 1. Subpoena my email provider for my IP address, and then subpoena my ISP for the details of who that IP address belongs to.

Option 2. Find out who owns the post office box.

Now as for the first option, it's basically not going to happen. As for the second I would presume that the post office has some reasonable privacy measures in place, and (hopefully) wouldn't give out my information very easily.


Now I definitely agree that even if the scammer did go to the police, they would never try something so extreme for any sort of minor crime.

So then the only risk is the scenario that I might accept an item that was paid for by a bad credit card, as happened to gargstang. Then local law enforcement might use option 2.

The only way to avoid it would be to never have anything sent. That eliminates option 2, and there are ways to eliminate option 1, so that I would be 100% safe, even in THEORY.

I suppose I could just get the lads to carve something and send me a photo of it. It certainly would be a lot more fun to get it sent to me. As far as I can tell the risk (in practical terms) is very small... even in gargstang's case he only got the 'third degree' so I guess ultimately it's safe enough.
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Scam Patroller
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Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 11852
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

FerryCorsten wrote:
I would presume that the post office has some reasonable privacy measures in place, and (hopefully) wouldn't give out my information very easily.


In the UK, if you have a PO Box, I can contact the Post Office, who are duty bound to tell me the details of who owns the box.

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irishemigrant
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:59 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@manbiteslion

It can take 3 months or more for a cheque to clear

do not believe the 2 week/whatever you are told

I know people that have cashed, sent, and then 5 months later, have lost their house, credit rating, loan profile

Any cheque cashing /transfer scheme relys on the available funds application that banks have to give

Quite frankly, if you gave me a cheque, I don't know you, I'd be waiting however long it took to clear before I sent you the goods/money what ever

But then again, I'm just a jaundiced been there, savvy in business old fart, and why should you listen to me

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SeniorNet NZ Local Branch ongoing workshops about internet scams

http://www.scamwarners.com/ For when you want to remember why we bait

Goodbye Mike (Paranoid) Friend, confidant, partner. Till we meet again.
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kleindoofy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

In Germany (where my box is) nothing short of a court order is going to get anybody any information about the box's owner.
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leeuwen
Master Baiter


Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 126


PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Now I'm not familair with the law in gargstangs country (I'm a student and know the basics of dutch law) but generally the following can be said:
When it comes to stolen property the law wants to know if you could have expected the property was stolen.
In the case of a scammer you are accepting goods from a total stranger who you have never met in your life. It's kind of hard to argue that you couldn't have suspected it was aquired by illegal means.
One could argue that in the case of a scambaiter, you know you are dealing with a criminal and should therefore suspect everything they give you, making it even more harder to say that you are innocent.

Also, he had the tough luck of getting involved with an investigator by a credit card company. Those are the people that do go through more effort your average scammer would ever will and on occassion could track you down.

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"IM STILL SLEEPING IN STREET WITH HEAVY CILD HERE AND I CONTACT YOU THROUGH NET
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irishemigrant
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ you are losing the plot here

WE KNOW THEY ARE SCAMMERS

what we are doing is wasting their time so that innocent victims are not sucked in

I can't understand your applied legalese logic and argument

If you are saying we are liable under a court anywhere for wasting their time by asking themn for more information please give citings

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SeniorNet NZ Local Branch ongoing workshops about internet scams

http://www.scamwarners.com/ For when you want to remember why we bait

Goodbye Mike (Paranoid) Friend, confidant, partner. Till we meet again.
Personal Message From The Axeman
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leeuwen
Master Baiter


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

^^
I was talking about gargstangs case (look for his post on the first page if you do not know what I mean), as you could see from my post, and the legal questions that arise from accepting things from a scammer. Accepting things from criminals can be an illegal activity as gargstangs case proves. This ofcourse depends on the situation.

As far as I'm aware there is no law against wasting time Wink

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"I appreciate the fact my dear that you are helping me, but you are not a zombie, if not i would not have needed your help."

"IM STILL SLEEPING IN STREET WITH HEAVY CILD HERE AND I CONTACT YOU THROUGH NET
FROM THE MONEY I BEG FROM ETHIOPIA EOPLE FROM STREET. PLEASE IM WEAK AND TIRES OF LIVING WITH OUT HELP. "
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FerryCorsten
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:47 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Gargstang can you elaborate on exactly what it was that you were receiving?


In my case I've requested a wooden bust of Abraham Lincoln -- to be produced from photos I sent of a sculpture.

It seems likely that the mugu would trick some naive artist into doing this, rather than paying (via stolen card) for some small company to manufacture and ship it to me. I suppose he might pay for the shipping via stolen card.

I will look into the privacy laws regarding post office boxes here in Australia.
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kleindoofy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Shakespeare would have said: 'Much ado about nothing.'

This is all a purley academic discussion. Many baiters on this site have been baiting intensively for years and years. Some of their baits have been nothing short of bizarre.

In all of those years and thousands and thousands of baits, NOTHING has ever happened to any baiter. Zilch. Nada.

This is a typical n00b discussion about 'what if.' Just listen to the time tried members.
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Corona
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

"What If" doesn't exist! Wink

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4X1X9
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

If ever a lad tries to prosecute a baiter I would be interested to listen to his opening statement.

LAD: There I was your honour just innocently going about my business of trying to fraudulantly extract thousands of dollars out of what I believed to be a little old lady living off her pension. Anyhow, I found out later it was all an act and the promise by this person to send me money was all a lie so I'm suing said person for breach of contract.

As a rule criminals try to stay as far away from LEOs and courts of law as they possibly can.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

What are the ethics of starting a thread questioning the ethics of imagining "what if" situations?

--J.D.

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FerryCorsten
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't mean to lash out at anybody here, but I understand that it's a unlikely scenario. That's not what I was asking Mad
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