Legality of Scambaiting

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Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 6

So obviously there are legal issues with activities such as cashbaiting and hacking, but what about just regular scambaiting.

I've been reading the letter archives, in which Shiver Metimbers has gotten scammers to send him artwork, large samples of handwriting, etc.

I realize that the chances of these guys going to the authorities is virtually non-existent, and also that foreign authorities would not really have any jurisdiction to prosecute such small crimes, but putting that aside for the moment...

The scammers were offered large amount of cash for completion of said work. And let's say, purely hypothetically, the US/UK/AU legal system wanted to make an example of someone for doing this (worst case scenario).

Has anyone had any legal repercussions from scambaiting? Is anyone here a lawyer or otherwise knowledgeable about whether there could be any serious repercussions?

Thanks.
-Jack

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:56 am

I suppose hypothetically, a victim, having agreed to pay all expenses to receive a non-existent payment from a scammer, could be sued for refusing to pay all outstanding fees until his whole family are destitute and ruined, as he has agreed to enter into a contract of his own free will.

Potentially, there are legal consequences every time you open your mouth, put pen to paper, or even sneeze witout putting your hand in front of your nose. However, such arguments frequently raised, do not achieve anything because anything is possible hypothetically.

In reality, the legal consequences of baiting are minimal, which is not to say that a baiter should not consider what he is doing at any given time and seek guidance if he is not sure of his position.

I operate on a very simple basis, that if a scammer ventures into my inbox up to no good, he gets what he deserves. I don't have any obligation to offer him tea and biscuits. I am not obliged to deal honestly with liars, thieves and cheats.

That's my view and the view of most here. As far as I am aware there has never been any recorded case of a baiter being prosecuted - so what was the point of the question ?

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:53 am

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Unless you're cashing stolen/forged checks, collecting WU payments send with stolen credit cards etc.

A legal system anywhere that will attempt to prosecute "Tom Cruise" of "Made Up Industries" across international borders over a scammer sending you 4 bucks worth of wood carvings and not coughing the promised millions in non existant cash is about as unlikely as a dinosaur coming back to life, finding fifty dollars, buying lotto tickets, winning and turning the proceeds into the world largest fortune investing in arctic ice cream stands.

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:54 am

The mugu can contact my two other characters which just happen to be
lawyers. I am sure the mugu can deal with them.

As far as I know, what can a mugu do. Laughing

If they are dumb enough to fall prey of their own game, Well they deserve it Laughing

Hello I'm New here! Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 6

>> I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Unless you're cashing stolen/forged checks, collecting WU payments send with stolen credit cards etc.

Yeah, I guess not.

BTW rumbero and Gomer I love you guys' signatures Laughing

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:56 am

Just look out! The lads like to pretend to be law enforcement agencies.. FBI, CIA, EFCC, to name a few. Why, in a matter of time, you too can receive a death threat written in ladspeak from the FBI. Who knows? Maybe the lad will even sic the "board of directors" on you. Wink

Lad playing Prof Charles Solodu wrote:

"You need to be carefull with what so ever you doing or we are going to track you down with the baord of the Directors."

Baiting Guru Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3193

If you read Shiver's artwork baits carefully, you will notice that he never actually promises money for the goods that are being sent. He offers the possibility of money based on the acceptability of samples.

Yes it is close to the legal line, although far less likely to get you into trouble than cash baiting for a number of reasons. If you don't like it, don't do it.

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:03 am

The mantra that's always quoted here FerryCorsten is - do what you personally feel comfortable with. No one should criticise you if you feel unhappy to do some things that others do, if you feel uneasy for ethical or legal reasons.

My mantra Wink

- do not preach unto others as you wouldn't like them to preach unto you (not that I'm accusing you). No harm in asking for opinions or checking what's acceptable though.

The first time you start dealing with people who lie and cheat for a living is quite unnerving for someone who prides themself on being honest and fair, and it's quite easy to feel uneasy at what you are doing - UNTIL you discover that they will tell any lie and abuse normal human decency, to wrench dollars from your wallet.

I'm not a 'gung ho hang em high' baiter, just one that's dealt with victims and seen them attack charities trying to help disfigured children in their own country (the Noma charity was just one). The death threats and insults are very satisfying to receive. They probably started as poor destitute orphans with millions in a trunk box, but after being baited their true identity becomes apparent with the tirade of abuse you receive.

Welcome to the world of baiting - and make sure you have fun. Very Happy

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:08 am

Gomer, and others, pretty much summed it up. I wish one of my lads would actually try and get me into court. Would make for an interesting case. Or good sig material at the very least.

They threaten me with legal action from time to time, but always back down when I set my barristers on them. Wink

Chance of it ever happening to a baiter=nil.

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:16 pm

GomerPyle wrote:

I suppose hypothetically, a victim, having agreed to pay all expenses to receive a non-existent payment from a scammer, could be sued for refusing to pay all outstanding fees until his whole family are destitute and ruined, as he has agreed to enter into a contract of his own free will.

Not a lawyer and never played one on TV but, if you bait safe, said victim is fictional. I'd think that would pretty much kill any hypothetical chance right there.
As others have said, practically this would be about as smart for a lad to do as someone going into a police station and wanting someone charged for stealing their cocaine.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 18313

Lads aren't reallly interested in bringing people to justice. I am currently a wanted woman who stole tons of money from my ministry, there is even a financial reward for my capture. My lad has been offered opportunities to turn me in and instead has me writing to the "British Interpol" and "[email protected]" so that I can pay some of his fees.

Elite Baiter Joined: 02 Jul 2006 Posts: 1702

shiver has his own way of doing things with usually hilarious results, but very few copy him.

In legal terms i cant really answer that im not a lawyer or the police but ive never heard of anyone getting any problems from law enforcement for baiting lads, a few raised eyebrows or a "you did what?" but no real major problems of baiters being in trouble for it.

Of course with some types of bait - for legal reasons its well documented in many places - the short answer is dont post about it or do it, posts get locked if people mention illegal activities for obvious reasons.

Im in no way defending shiver but i think you will find he knows how far he can push things without getting himself into trouble - if people copy him they may not know that very fine line.

So far no baiter has been arrested for doing what we do, and as long as you follow the guidelines no one will ever be.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

Police and prosecutors want victims first of all. Lads aren't going to garner any sympathy. Second of all, who would be prosecuting you? Do you think that a lad from Lagos or Spain is going to get a local police officer in Easton, Pennsylvania (or Dorchester, England) to begin an investigation into why you haven't sent the promised $500 Moneygram which was to compensate the lad for his 350 mile trip?

So, break it down into practical vs. ethical. Practically, there is virtually no chance of any liability if you bait properly and within our guidelines. Ethically -- as others have said -- do what you feel most comfortable with. If you just want to waste a lad's time, then have at it -- it can be fun, and there's little problem of tipping into questionable areas. But if you really want to feel comfortable, go into fake bank killing or shutting down phone lads -- 103% risky free and 109% morally pure.

Have fun. Smile

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:49 pm

Echoiing JMR's point on the civil matters side:

You have a "contract" with a lad (well, your character does) to deliver $4500 in order to receive an inheritance of $20M.
The lad decides to sue you for non-performance. He files suit in Lagos Superior Court, against Mr. Eric Shunn of Charliestown, West Carolina.
The Court mails a summons to said address, where it is returned for non-service....

The point is: the lad is also chasing a phantom.
Even if he had the incredible gall/stupidiity to file criminal charges against your character, how would your character ever be served/arrested/indicted?
What Lagos prosecutor wouldn't laugh him right out of hiis office?

Unless you somehow break the laws in your country in such a way as to garner attention: cashing a fake check, accepting a payment into your bank account from a lad who is using you for money laundering, etc.

I'm no attorney, but I'd say you're safe from legal reprisals.

Not quite a Newb Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 35

I read in a paper that 2 different people in Springfield Illinois have had brushes with the law over working with the mugus, fake money orders and travelers cheques. What saved them was that a local AM radio station had baited a love mugu just a year or two ago, so the scam is known in that area.

Yeah, I can see a lad spending his cafe cash to lodge a police report instead of moving on to get baited again.

Does anyone use the search function? I know this has been discussed on several occasions and that, until a court sets a precedent, there will be little or no change in the various baiter's modalities.

Next thing someone will ask if anyone has been sued for defamation of character for insulting a lad. Rolling Eyes

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:06 pm

Legal Schmeegal.

Why the heck should I care about the law when (as you can see from my sig) I got the Big Man himself on my tail?

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:14 pm

I was recently advised by a local detective that I was potentially putting myself out there to be prosecuted by a credit card company because a scammer sent me a product that looked to be purchased with a stolen card. Trying to do the right thing and not retain possession of stolen property, I turned it over to the police and then got the third degree.

It is important to note that I never asked to have anything sent to me and never made any promises of cash payments to the lad.

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:27 pm

I'm skittish of the remote possibility of having to explain why I'm receiving shipments of forged checks... so I quit baiting check lads. Do what you're comfortable with, and nothing more Cool

*** BANNED *** Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 164

I was a victim of ID fraud some years ago, knew who was responsible, reported it to the Police who didn�t want to know. So I don�t feel they would be any more likely to pursue baiters

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:47 pm

Ok I thought KD locked up the old broken records last night??????????

Who slipped him some liquor and stole the key?????

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

This question comes up every quarter or so.

There isn't anything wrong with the new members asking about it.

Please keep the snark to a minimum.

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:01 pm

FerryCorsten wrote:

... The scammers were offered large amount of cash ...

In addition to what the others have said, we shouldn't forget that any offers or promises a baiter makes are based on, follow, and answer totally bogus claims and promises made by the scammer.

If - in downtown Manhattan, right in front of a cop - a guy walked up to you and said "hey, duya wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge, I'll sell it to ya?" and you answered "ok, if you buy me lunch and shine my shoes, I just might buy the bridge off you" and the scammer did buy you lunch and shine your shoes, the cop would have a laughing fit, but he wouldn't dream of arresting you.

[edit:] @ED: The difference here is that the OP asked his question and read the answers. In the other the OP harped on his premise without listening to anybody else.

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:10 pm

If the lad thought he had a legal leg to stand on, we wouldn't be receiving emails theatening us with legal action from [email protected] and with the same IP address as the lad himself.

*** BANNED *** Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Posts: 164

Quote:

I'm receiving shipments of forged checks...

I know the rules of this website is to not involve third parties but is acceptable to have Cheques sent to Police Stations

sorry if the question is an old one

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:51 pm

@kubis - short answer: no. ITP's. Police stations generally have no jurisdiction over whomever sent the bad check; couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it even if they did; and it just wastes their time when they've got REAL local baddies to go hunt down.