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 Debate Super Safari and Ebola HERE

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thefife
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

johnnyringo wrote:
There is a hospital in Memphis, TN called St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, that is full of kids with every type of cancer imaginable. Were they behind in their karma payments?


See this is why people don't like these kinds of ethics threads. Below the belt high drama guilt tripping that if it weren't employed as a "debate" tactic, the speaker would have no rebuttal.

From what I have read on here (sorry I'm just not prepared to personally go researching Ebola & Kitum Cave, etc.) 1 person who happened to visit the cave got the virus. Who knows what the person did b4 or after the visit to the cave to contract the disease. The cave seems to be a fact floating out there with no definitive proof the cave was the cause of him getting the disease. Assuming the victim did get Ebola from visiting the cave, 1 person out of THOUSANDS isn't even statistically significant. So for all intents and purposes, there is 0 risk of getting Ebola from going to the cave. You probably have a way better chance of winning a Mega Million Jackpot than getting Ebola from visiting Kitum Cave.

The point of the super safari is to get the lad to waste his time & money pursuing a wild goose chase. The point is not for him to get Ebola. Although from the sounds of it, Jojo wouldn't mind such an unintended? consequence ( Laughing ). If he really wanted him to get a painful & deadly disease he would have sent him on safari to a level 1000 biohazard zone w/ specific instructions that any sort of protective gear is absolutely prohibited. I'm in the We Shouldn't Kill Lads camp...but that's just b/c I don't believe in killing people, NOT b/c I'm some sort of card carrying Lad Hugger.

Jojo, I applaud and am in awe of your skillz (& YW & BW). Most of these ethics mongers are just mad b/c they can't get a lad to go on a super safari. They don't realize the effort that goes into it. Like lads are lined up for blocks sleeping in line in the rain for the chance to go on a Jojo/YW/BW Demented Super Safari. Or do anything else for that matter. Really, you only have yourselves to blame for making it look so easy. Rolling Eyes I hope you get him to go 16k km/miles. If you can convince him to stow away on a space ship bound for Mars, even better. Then you could have a universe icon in your sigs! But I'm sure a debate would break out a/b whether or not to include Pluto in the universe icon.

Well, we're only on pg. 2 [EDIT: oops pg. 3, my fault Embarassed] of this ethics strand, might as well get comfortable TS, there's @ least 6-8 more pages to go...before a consensus is reached that if you don't feel comfortable w/ having your lad contract Ebola, then have him contract the clap...I mean, then don't have him contract Ebola.

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kleindoofy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:23 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Can somebody please wake me up when this thread in any way gets back to something that has even the slightest to do with scambaiting? Confused
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Doctor X
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:09 am Reply with quoteBack to top

thefife wrote:
See this is why people don't like these kinds of ethics threads. Below the belt high drama guilt tripping that if it weren't employed as a "debate" tactic, the speaker would have no rebuttal.


Actually, in this case no. It simply demonstrated the implications of the thesis. Sometimes one has to underscore the silliness of the implications in order to demonstrate has the thesis is invalid.

I think "why people don't like" ethics debates is because they do not come HERE for them. Furthermore ethics debates tend to degenerate into odd, if not ridiculous hypotheticals. Case in Point: Will my Lad contract Ebola? At the end of your post you suggest some even better ones!

Quote:
. . . 1 person who happened to visit the cave got the virus. Who knows what the person did b4 or after the visit to the cave to contract the disease.


You are correct. The problem remains that no one has found the natural vector(s) for the vira, and where there is a lack of knowledge, there is speculation that can grow wide in the popular imagination.

Quote:
So for all intents and purposes, there is 0 risk of getting Ebola from going to the cave.


Indeed, and I would suggest that if a Lad "wins" said lottery and contracts Ebola from a safari it is because he tried to scam someone. If he was not a criminal, he never would have tried to scam a baiter.

Quote:
If he really wanted him to get a painful & deadly disease he would have sent him on safari to a level 1000 biohazard zone. . . .


You would have to admit that would be quite the safari--probably earns it own sigla--or are people just not that impressed with a safari to Detroit?

Quote:
. . . but that's just b/c I don't believe in killing people, NOT b/c I'm some sort of card carrying Lad Hugger.


Fair enough. As you note, the likelihood of Lad contracting Ebola is far less than his risk of crossing the street to visit a WU. IF a baiter wanted to literally kill a lad . . . well . . . that may bring the ethics debate into the realm of reality. I, frankly, do not care what happens to criminals who do not care if their victims live or die; however, to seriously advocate sending/luring such to their demise opens up really nasty legal implications that the Board does not need.

Quote:
Then you could have a universe icon in your sigs! But I'm sure a debate would break out a/b whether or not to include Pluto in the universe icon.


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fawnykate
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Doctor X , that was a very illuminating high brow response you posted.
I feel I must point out though, that I think you are mistaken when you state that people don't come HERE to debate the ethics of the the safari in question.
This thread was set aside to debate the ethics of the Super Safari and those not wishing to enter into such a debate are under no obligation to do so. Furthermore the title of the thread does more than give the game away as to the contents of this debate, so those who do not wish to read another ethics debate, as they may have been there and done it all before (mods excluded) don't need to click on it or post on it. Simple isn't it.

The way I see it, A persons ethical stance is most often influenced by their core beliefs and values which in turn are generated by their religious/political persuasion. Ethical debates are not a good thing nor a bad thing.
Other forums I frequent actually ban religious or political debates in an attempt to stem conflict amongst its members, these forums are based around topics much less volatile than scam baiting.
Maybe a vote on the subject of ethical debates or a seperate string maybe the way to go.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I've stayed out of this (and other) ethics debates because I find them to be pointless. I suggest we simply agree on a very fundamental premise:

If it's bad for the lads: IT'S GOOD.

Discussion closed. Wink

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thefife
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Juan Freizwidatt wrote:
If it's bad for the lads: IT'S GOOD.


Hard to argue w/ that Laughing But I'm sure someone will come along to discredit this fundamental premise.

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...So we want repair our tached prayer house. If you would like to help us 500 dollars it will be great help...Now I am some pictures for your kind notice. I am waiting for your reply.
Thanking you. Yours in His service (+ Banner!)


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pug
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@kd Hey, this thread is not to talk about baiting, it's to debate the ethics of a couple of specific baits. That's the title of it, for Heaven's sake! I've been reading it but don't really have the time or energy to get involved, but I certainly believe it's right to have it. I guess I have kinda the same attitude that some people have about the potentially unpleasant baits: "If you don't like it, don't read it."

As for those who make a blunt statement and then say "end of discussion", well, it's not the end of the discussion. Different people have different viewpoints and they always will, and that's OK, too. Do you really expect everyone who doesn't agree with you to suddenly change their mind because you've said "end of discussion"? I don't think so.

Anyhow, there's my two cents worth on this and other ethics threads and a plug for freedom of speech and differences of opinion here on Eater.

Carry on! (and be careful not to get Ebola!!!!!) Very Happy

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persephone
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Ah right, we are once again putting time and energy into discussing what could happen if in the highly unlikely event, the microscopic possibility became true that the lad might eventually contract Ebola because he decided to travel to some place that is related to the birth of the Ebola virus because he is trying to steal money......... and then discuss how we feel about that. Cool! Confused

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Eight
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

fawnykate wrote:
Other forums I frequent actually ban religious or political debates


As do we. There is a blanket ban on discussing politics and religion here, and repeated breaches will get the culprit banned. Ethics discussions are permitted, but only because we have yet to introduce "boring some or all of the mods" as a reason for an instaban. Laughing

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pug
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It's me again!!
All this hoopla about Ebola got me interested in researching the Kitum cave. I don't know if this particular information has been presented elsewhere, but since there is still the Ebola fever fever going on, maybe it needs to be aired again.
According to the Mt. Elgon park website, Kitum cave is a major tourist attraction, as are the other similar caves on Mt. Elgon. I think that in itself should quell any fears about Ebola spreading from there. I couldn't find out how many tourists visit there, but clearly it's a popular destination for people, and none of them seem to have gotten Ebola nor initiated a mass extinction of the human race.
The two deaths that were "linked" (inconclusively) to the cave were in 1980 and 1987. Not too scary.
The novel The Hot Zone is, of course, based on the above deaths, but it's a novel. Fiction. Imaginary even!
Further research showed me that the vectors and carriers of Ebola (and the related Marburg virus, are not known, but possibly it's fruit bats, so people should be discouraged from eating the bats! (Apparently ingesting the bats would be the only way to get it from them?) There is also speculation that the bats themselves may get it from contaminated plant viruses, so there's even a chance, presumably, to get it from eating the fruit! Regardless, it seems that there is enough human and animal traffic into and out of Kitum cave that it's not going to make one whit of difference if one more mammal spends some time in there hunting for a treasure.
Anyhow, enough of that for now. I hope that bit of pedagogy has allayed any fears regarding an imminent pandemic caused by our poor mugu venturing into (cue Jaws theme) "The Hot Zone".

I'm reluctant to say "end of discussion" re: the Ebola risk, but I think it's safe to say that it really ain't an issue and probably doesn't merit any more time or energy. As for the ethical part, well, there's no ending that discussion, so have at it!

(FWIW, I'm glad I did some of the research and learned a bit for about Mt. Elgon, the caves, Ebola, etc. I also stumbled across a very interesting forum peopled by a lot of infectious disease/biochemistry geeks. And we think we're strange here at Eater! You should see their in-jokes!

Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

As far as virii is concerned, perhaps we shouldn't make lads in Nigeria go anywhere. Lassa (another hemorragic fever related to Ebola) occurs there. Not quite as high a death rate, but spreads the same way.

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thud419
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Richard Preston in the preface to Hot Zone wrote:
This book is non-fiction. The story is true, and the people are real. I have occasionally changed the names of characters including the names of "Charles Monet" and "Peter Cardinal". When I have changed a name, I state so in the text.
The dialog is reconstructed from the recollections of the participents. At certain moments in the story, I describe the stream of a person's thoughts. In such instances, I am basing my narrative on interviews with the subjects in which they have recalled their thoughts, often repeatedly, followed by fact-checking sessions in which the subjects confirmed their recollections.


Sensationalised, yes - I wince every time he talks about space-suits. But not fiction.

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guineagirl
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sending a lad on a safari that will result in his catching ebola : Evil (but highly unlikely)

Sending a lad on a safari and making him believe he risks contracting ebola in doing so: Wickedly funny

Now that that's settled, maybe we could debate the ethics of the following:
1. Requiring a lad to get a sex change
2. Encouraging lads to attempt space travel without oxygen
3. Getting lads to swim with sharks
4. Making a lad get circumcised (oh yeah, we did that one already).
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

ChocolateChip_Wookie wrote:
He is frankly more likely to get trampled by an elephant or eaten by a leopard.
Sweet! Are you selling tickets?Very Happy Feel sorry for the leopard though. May find a lad hard to keep down...

ChocolateChip_Wookie wrote:
Be careful what you wish for.
I agree totally. The lads should be a lot more careful who they decide to scam and for how much. All of this could have been avoided if the lad wasn't so greedy, wasn't a criminal, and didn't contact the 419 travel agency. Dumb, stupid, wishful lad!!!

The ever lovable and patient kd wrote:
Can somebody please wake me up when this thread in any way gets back to something that has even the slightest to do with scambaiting?
Use your magical keyring and save us all the trouble Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@thud419
The Hot Zone is fiction. Not real. It may be based on events that actually happened, there may be interviews with actual people, but it's fiction. People get killed by sharks, but Jaws is fiction. The DaVinci Code has some factual elements in it, but it's fiction. Most fiction and sci-fi novels have some element of truth in them which makes them a good read, but they are NOT fact. They are sensationalized, embellished, expanded. Fiction. Period. They should not be used to support any thesis whatsoever, and should not be taken as fact. The space suit thing is a good example. You can find some very nice pictures taken from inside Kitum cave on the Mt. Elgon website which are fact reality.

This is a review I found at: http://www.allreaders.com/Topics/Info_1245.asp



Plot Summary of The Hot Zone
"Richard Preston is the master of Bio-Medical novels because he incorporates a large element of fact in with his fiction. Everything in this story is based on actual events, though the story is false. He takes real information and creates a "historical fiction" of the hunt for the Ebola virus. Nothing about this book seems like fiction though. Reading this book, one gets the feeling that this story is true. When I was finished with this book, I had to remind myself that Preston created this story, that it wasn't true. It's a very scary topic, and this book makes you think about the possibilities of a viral outbreak."

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Josh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:51 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think we've debated this to death. Can I kindly request for the mods to lock this thread?

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pug
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:54 am Reply with quoteBack to top

@josh:
Why lock it? Is it taking too much bandwidth? Is it inflammatory? Is it political or religious? Is it against Eater ethics? If you don't like it, don't read it!

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XPS1710
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:47 am Reply with quoteBack to top

ChocolateChip_Wookie wrote:
Mod Introduction. This is an ongoing discussion of the safari thread here:
http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116760

How about a little bit of perspective here people.

You are talking about wishing that this lad will contract EBOLA. One of THE most feared viruses on the planet. There is no cure and it is horrifically contagious. To all intents and purposes, it has an almost 100% mortality rate. You liquify inside and you bleed from every orifice but you dont die immediately. For aproximately 24 - 36 hours you are contagious. This virus has been known to wipe out entire villages, every man, woman and child. Do you really want to be responsible for this lad wondering around the countryside from village to village spreading the virus whilst he looks for a doctor and the decimation of hundreds if not thousands of people?

Now, I very much doubt he would contract Ebola. As I said, there is no evidence what so ever that Kitkum cave is the vector, but the possibility exists. He is frankly more likely to get trampled by an elephant or eaten by a leopard. In any case, Ebola is not a game, it is not the sniffles, it is the most feared and hated virus on the planet.

Be careful what you wish for.


Just to clarify a few points here.

The Virus strain you are talking about is the Marburg Virus (an Ebola relative). It has had a fatality rate of 21% to 88% in its outbreaks, but never 100%. (CDC and WHO)

That said, both visitors to Kitum who returned with MV died. But given the amount of people who go to Kitum, its really a very small percentage risk of the Lad contracting Ebola by going there. About as likely as him getting AIDS from a tattoo.

NB, I would wish neither the disease, nor the horrid suffering that comes with recovering from Ebola on anyone.
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thud419
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:19 am Reply with quoteBack to top

What's a review supposed to prove? Here's another one, more authoritative. Anyway this isn't about baiting or ethics, so we'd better take it to PMs from here on.
An Amazon reviewer wrote:
I was given this book when I arrived in Kenya some 6 years ago. I was recruited as the CEO of the Nairobi Hospital. The Nairobi Hospital in which the first scenes of the book play out. This was years after the events talked about in the book. But I met many of the people that the book talks about, I found the whole thing fascinating, and VERY instructive!!

Now working back in the NHS in the UK, with a much better knowledge of what mankind is just about holding at bay.

I do have some problems with the book, but they are minor and due to the overly dramatic nature in which events were protrayed, but hey, you have to sell them somehow


See also http://www.multcolib.org/books/lists/medicalnonfiction.html

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FireWyrm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

XPS1710 wrote:
The Virus strain you are talking about is the Marburg Virus (an Ebola relative). It has had a fatality rate of 21% to 88% in its outbreaks, but never 100%. (CDC and WHO)



21 - 88%? Really. Would you take that spread of odds on a horse?

As for contagiousness, the problem with virii is that they mutate , alarmingly quickly. Generally, they have an identifiably vector (the fact that the hemoragics aparently dont, or we cant find one) is alarming also. Ebola Zaire is the most contagious and deadly to date with a mortality of 90+%. In contrast Ebola Reston proved to be completely benign to humans but 100% fatal to (aparently) a wide range of simians. According to what I have read, the Reston strain DID cross the species barrier from monkey to human because antibodies were identified in all the monkey house workers. In other words, they caught it, it was just very lucky that the strain proved to be benign to humans but what if it hadnt? What if the Reston strain was infact as lethal to humans as it was to monkeys? What makes you think that the virus would never mutate? The answer is that there is a damned good chance that it would have given enough time. That is precisely why the cautious aproach.

Now, Kitkum cave was twice associated with an outbreak of Ebola. Granted that the eggheads have been over the cave with a fine tooth comb looking for the vector, but there are litterally millions of possible vectors. It may not be anything to do with the cave as such, it may be to do with the resident insects or more likely their parasites. Virii are the most primitive lifeforms on the planet and the Lord only knows where they came from. However, it is undeniable that there is a link between Ebola and that particular cave complex however tenuous. I know that it is a national park, but there are national parks all over america filled with sqirrels carrying plague (bubonic and mneumonic) but that doesnt mean I'm going to feed the bloody things if there is a chance of getting bitten.

The essence of the original argument was this :

a) If a lad gets killed through what should be called 'mis-adventure', then that's his hard luck i.e, he gets his rocks off with a whore on the Kinshasa Highway and comes back with Aids. Similarly, if he gets struck by a meteor, tough. I have no problems with this.

b) If we intentionally send a lad to a place that we know has been linked with Ebola (however tenuous) then that makes us responsible for the results. I dont care if the Lad catches Ebola and wouldnt care if it was he who was the only person to suffer, but he wouldnt be. He would spread the illness around all over the place whilst searching for a doctor. Doctors and nurses (and religious orders) would be in the direct firing line along with hundreds of other innocent people. In my view, the whole place should be quarantened until the vector is found, but it isnt unfortunately.

As for a number of people who have made derogatory comments about this particular ethical debate and ethical debates in general, I would like to point out that the discussion of ethics should never be dismissed. It is what makes us human and if we begin to disregard the discussion and simply refer people to previous threads, then this is no-longer a 'discussion board' and has become a closed shop filled with people who have preconceived notions of right and wrong. The beauty of ethics is that the very act of discussion and exploration has the potential to change the world view of the human race. Those who do not wish to participate dont have to. Those who do, can contribute and hopefully take something away with them or clarify their own views. I for one will not be silenced. As I am not breaking the rules, I am not being defamatory or inflamatory, I am not being rude and my arguments are well reasoned, I see no reason to 'lock' this thread as has been suggested. In due course, it will run out of momentum and die a natural death but until then, we all have a duty to at least read the comments if not contribute ourselves. Each new intake of recruits will continue to discuss ethics and long may they do so!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

ChocolateChip_Wookie wrote:

However, it is undeniable that there is a link between Ebola and that particular cave complex however tenuous.


Confused I agree that the link between the cave & Ebola is undeniably tenuous...on a good day. 2 cases out of who knows how many thousands is so insignificant. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an ethical discussion about having your lad contract Ebola. But as it pertains to this bait, there is not much to discuss. There is no evidence to support the theory that the cave was the source of the 2 Ebola cases. There is more evidence to support the idea that the cave or the wildlife in and around it were not the source.

Time may be better spent discussing the ethics of sending a lad outside on a misadventure where he could be bitten by a rabid malaria carrying mosquito, contract malaria & rabies, infects everyone in a 10 mile radius, they infect others, & mass human extinction ensues.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I personally would be concerned with the risk to ITPs if the lad contracted ebola and then went home (presumably aboard some form of mass transit).

That being said, the lad's risk of contracting ebola is no greater than any of the hundreds of other tourists who visit the cave.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sometimes i think the people who do these baits let thier emotions get the better of them; remember guys two wrongs don't make a right. I expect better judgements from these people.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:18 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^
I completely agree about better judgement. I figured that we could have done much better by sending him <a href="http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1040501,00.html" target="_blank">here</a> but Jojo and Big Worm were hell bent on the Hot Zone at Mt. Elgon.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

In my personal opinion, not visiting Mt Elgon because of fear of catching Ebola is about as logical as not visiting London for fear that the ghost of Jack the Ripper might get you.

For goodness sake, Mt Elgon is a National Park of Kenya and is one of the best treking areas in the whole of East Africa, regularly visited by thousands of people from all over the World.

Haven't the 'ethics' been done to death now (no pun intended)..

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