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 Perpetual motion scam

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shuntbuzz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This led me here.

Oh deary deary me - people will believe anything Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

As someone in their forum posted, somewhere along the line, large amounts of cash will be expected to change hands on very little evidence.

Yuri Geller must be chewing his own liver in jealousy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Looks perfectly reasonable to me. They have those Zero Point Modules on Stargate.

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shuntbuzz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

So the lads must be Go'auld Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Laughing Or the evil Ori... Actually, yes, they are.

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Tommo Shanter
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:29 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
So, last Friday a number of people turned up at the museum and were told that the demonstration would have to be postponed, indefinitely.


Count me in.

Perpetual motion and energy is very much like making love to a beautiful woman...and much needed when the Viagra wears off. Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
So, last Friday a number of people turned up at the museum and were told that the demonstration would have to be postponed, indefinitely.


I can't imagine why. Rolling Eyes If this is a perpetual motion machine, it should always be running, so why would you postpone something like that?

From their website:

Quote:
Over 5000 people applied to become involved in the process of validation, including nearly 500 qualified scientists.


Who were the other 90%? Fluff, so when the nearly 500 qualified scientists say that this is crap, the company can claim that 90% of those involved in testing were convinced.

Maybe these guys will invent something that exceeds the speed of light next.

EDIT: One more comment... Don't you think that a group that can supercede the first fundamental law of thermodynamics would be able to create a decent website?

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Tommo Shanter
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^Travelling in the excess of the speed of light is very much like making love to a beautiful woman...you can meet yourself coming back out of the black hole without wasting too much time in the process.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

This reminded of this quote by Homer Simpson, Lisa was self teaching because the teachers were on strike:

Quote:
This perpetual motion machine Lisa made is a joke, it just keeps going faster and faster. Lisa, get in here...In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!


So yeah the guy who is claiming this is completely delusional.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^

That was the first thing that came to mind when I saw that.

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shuntbuzz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Nah - not delisional - a con man. It has all the hallmarks.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^I guess it depends on whether he truly believes he has made a perpetual motion machine or not. If he believes, he has lost his mind. If not it is a con, either way people who invest are going to lose money.

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wokabo
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Here's another perpetual motion machine (sorry for my crappy paint drawing skills):

Image

The idea is a flexible harmonica tube (like the one used for laundry dryer machines' air outlets), connecting 2 holes in the opposite walls of a recipient (1).
When submerged in water, it will be pushed up, increasing the volume (2).

Place several of these on a rotating wheel, close the side holes and add a pipe to allow the air going in, and make sure it can't expand when going down (bottom pic).
Because the volume of the tubes going up is larger than the ones going down, the force going up (left) is larger than the force on the pipes going down, so it starts rotating and producing energy out of nothing.

Now can anyone tell me why this wouldn't work?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^ Because nothing diagrammed in blue, black and white ever works?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:49 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't quite understand the drawing there, but why wouldn't there be an even balance between them if they are equally spaced? Why would the wheel begin to rotate one way and not the other? It seems to me that it would remain in equilibrium. But again, I don't fully understand the drawings.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^ the pipes under water on the left will be pushed up and will expand because of the water pressure, to ones on the right can't beacause they're blocked by the c-shaped things (I didn't draw that in the lower drawing, sorry). Because the volume of the pipes on the left is higher than on the right, the upward force on the left is higher and the wheel will turn.

Mind you, I am not claiming at all this works (I am 99.99999% convinced it doesn't, just can't find the catch). This thing was invented by Wessel di Wesseli in the 80's, a local lunatic-inventer; he's still looking for funds to build a large working model afaik.

My drawing is a simplification of his design, he use(s)(d) a sort of belt system with 2 wheels (1 wheel under water) to get more pipes under water.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I would say that simple friction and water resistance would be enough to put a hole in that theory, but I am no thermo expert.

Could you label the views of the drawing (ie top view, side view)? That might help me understand.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Any system can be described as an energy gradient with new / stored energy input from the high side, being processed to do work and then falling out the low side until it all runs out and the universe dies a heat death, the end, its a mini adventure.

You cannot beat entropy unless you can harness quantum energy a la the big bang "free lunch" theory and even that energy is probably coming from some other STC.

Anyone who claims to have this nailed is a fool or a liar - either way, they and those who believe in them are mucking fuppets Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^Spot on. I lost a tremendous amount of respect for my roommate my freshman year. He constructed a similar Ferris wheel device that used the heat taken and given off by contracting rubberbands. Made the thing in a Styrofoam cooler.

Too bad we can't log on and profess our expertness. I do miss the Concepts College Forums.

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Tommo Shanter
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

wokabo wrote:

Now can anyone tell me why this wouldn't work?


Number One is a bar code from a lad's passport.
Number One (A) is my front door bell.
Number Two is a worm on a mission.
Number Two (B) is a birds eye view of eight blinkered Morris dancers clacking.

Apart from that it seems perfectly feasable... a bit like cold fusion, but not as sexy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

may be missing something but going back, nigh on 20 yrs, first law of themodynamics?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^^ Conservation of energy...energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

@wokabo, the volume of two flexible tubes at the same vertical position in the water column is going to be equal, therefore the bouyancy will be equal. Nothing rises or falls without external force.

This problem more directly relates to Boyles Law....pressure varies inversely with volume at a constant temperature.

Edit: And Archimedes in his bath figures into this somehow as well.

Disclaimer: But what the hell do I know? I'm a liberal arts grad...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:32 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

wokabo wrote:

Mind you, I am not claiming at all this works (I am 99.99999% convinced it doesn't, just can't find the catch). This thing was invented by Wessel di Wesseli in the 80's, a local lunatic-inventer; he's still looking for funds to build a large working model afaik.


Mr. di Wesseli obviously doesn't know about WU or MG... Shocked Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Under normal conditions I would quote the laws of physics and say that perpetual motion doesn't exist.

However, seeing the lower jaw of this woman reminds me of a few things and has let me change my mind:

Image

Once started, some things never stop. Wink
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shuntbuzz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:16 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Connie L. Gus wrote:
^^^Spot on.


I thank you. I am a bastard hybrid of Albert Einstein and the banjo player from Deliverance. I also do on demand performances of global socio-political analysis from the perspective of pickled herrings as well Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Here's a related article on wired:
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/07/snake-oil-updat.html
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