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 One of the problems with baiting

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Canucklehead
Master Baiter


Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 168
Location: Canada


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:17 am Reply with quoteBack to top

yawn...

Donation Giver wrote:
Aside from the 419 scam, what other jobs are there in Nigeria?


Your initial question belies a misunderstanding of the situation. The moral dilemna's you think you are facing are a result of your ignorance not of realities.
You claim to be serious and not trolling, but you are the one whose attitude is supercilious as you have not bothered to become informed on the topic before questioning others motives and morality.

It is not a choice between being a 419er or starving. Do some research before trolling again.

No point arguing with those who choose not to educate themselves. Please PLease Please lock this thread.

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McFlibbish
Psychedelic Monkey


Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 1294
Location: 7th row, Jerry's side


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Troll.

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BeetleJuice
Wannabe Baiter


Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 91
Location: near the North Pole..


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:24 am Reply with quoteBack to top

If it sticks and it shouldn't use WD40
If it moves and it shouldn't use Duct Tape

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RooRoo
Elite Baiter


Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 1709


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:51 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm going to lock this topic for a short time to give everyone a chance to cool off. While it is locked I'd like to request that you do 2 things:
1 read the posting guidelines
2 apologise by PM to anyone you have insulted.

Thanks for your cooperation.

_________________
Sometimes when I hit my hello kitty doll really hard, there's a muffled sound...a little like a scream. The scream of a tortured animal, lost in the chaos of the world. The scream of a 4 by 4 rolling over my toe. Hello Kitty is....pain.
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RooRoo
Elite Baiter


Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 1709


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

OK I have unlocked this topic again as we have all had a bit of time. I know everyone will have reviewed the posting guidelines and will play nice.

_________________
Sometimes when I hit my hello kitty doll really hard, there's a muffled sound...a little like a scream. The scream of a tortured animal, lost in the chaos of the world. The scream of a 4 by 4 rolling over my toe. Hello Kitty is....pain.
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Guest







PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:02 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hmmpphh. I was going to post something here but out of respect for RooRoos decision I won't. Just be glad I didn't get a hold of this sooner..... Evil or Very Mad
waamo
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Donation Giver wrote:
Scamming is a part time job for most of the scammers .........Aside from the 419 scam, what other jobs are there in Nigeria?


I've editted the whole thing down to highlight the salient points. This is a contradiction (I'm assuming the quetion as to work is rhetorical, it certainly reads that way to me). If 419 is their part time job then it is unlikely that their children are "starving" as was suggested.

That aside it is assumed that 419 scammers are being forced into spending money and wasting their own time when infact they are doing it of their own volition. When a scammer is asked for a photo nobody is forcing him to comply. He has a choice he can walk away and "feed his family". His actions have consequences for which he has to bear responsibility for.

If his actions cause him to be ashamed and loose money that is his fault and his fault alone.
Ironrod
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Posts: 24


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think that is the issue DG is complaining about. Their greed causes them to do stupid crap and we use that against them. She has taken that part of this and views it in a vacuum as if there are no other factors affecting it. She refuses to look at the victims of their crimes and turn that criticle eye towards the mugus because her guilt trip doesn't work on them and she thinks it'll work on us.

They are THEIVES and therefore are getting their come-uppins.
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alagbon
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Schnecksville, PA


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Fred Flintstone wrote:
The title is "In God's Name" http://www.nigeriannews.com/Dozie_Ezeife_GodsName_12_19_2002.htm You want to talk about people with twisted morals. The scammers are the ones that fit that description.


Fascinating article. Anyone else notice the banner ads for Western Union?
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Guest







PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Personally I do not care what motivates people bait. It could be to waste the scammers time, to get the scammer arrested or for nothing more than to get a silly picture. To me it doesn't matter as long as we are all baiting with the common goals in mind...to stop the scam or at least to make it harder for the scammer.

I do not claim to be a moral person (ask anyone that really knows me) but in the end I hope my baiting affects the scammers in a negative way.
HaroldP
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Australia


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't know how seriously I took baiting until I got inside insight on these "poor defenceless mugus". Then I realised that yeah, these are people with a LOT of money to burn, and who will indeed stop at nothing to get more. You might change your mind if you realised just how little the failure of one, two, or a hundred of their scams affects their lives.

Then think about how wasting their time on one, two, or a hundred failed scams might just have saved one, two, or a hundred people from being cheated because they can't spot a scam. I know there's those here that have no sympathy for victims, and that's fine; their choice. But there are many levels of scams, and even highly educated and intelligent people can be taken in. I have a small library of books on classic scams, not to mention the Internet at my disposal, and for my part, I feel that it illustrates that many people simply do not have the "alarm" bell that others do.

Should we then let innocent people be scammed because we have that alarm bell and others don't? Do you stand by while someone gets beaten to death? For some, the answer to both would be yes, but for those who the answer is "No", baiting is at least a start. Media exposure is another - and there's more and more of that happening. Arrests are the big one.

Does everyone joke around and send these guys to Western Union, waste their money on phone calls, pictures, and "other things? No - there's a good number of serious baiters around who have only one purpose in mind, and that's to bring these criminals to justice. I'm tending to head in that direction myself.

I guess then you could examine the impact on the scammers' family, and say that's harmful to children - but frankly, criminals are criminals, and a criminal supporting their family with the proceeds of a crime is not looking after the best interests of his own family.

On another note: To remove mildew from the corners of walls, tubs, and other hard to reach areas, use a flamethrower and a bucket of lard.

_________________
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---------------------------------
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Epistimon
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 49
Location: Hurricane Alley


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:05 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Clink clink, (the sound of my 2 cents being thrown in.)


I believe the original fuel to the fire was a concern with baiters tying up resources that could be better used for the scammers family. I believe such a concern is valid, as we are all thinking and caring people, and I'm sure none of us like to see innocent people harmed.

When you look at a picture of Joe Eboh (Shivers "Painted Breast" bait) you see a pleasant looking man with a nice smile on his face. Your knee-jerk reaction is to think, "he looks like an o.k. guy, friendly, maybe a little goofy, the kind of guy that would open the door for you if you were carrying a package." But let me tell you why Joe has that smile on his face. A quote from the bible that I particularly like "The devil often appears as an angel of light" applies here. Joe is not an angel of light, he's the devil. He is defrauding clergymen and he doesn't care as long as he gets his money. Don't be fooled by the silly grins, everything the scammer says is a lie designed to play on greed or sympathy, and seperate people from their money. If anyone has any doubts I suggest reading the earlier post by Oz_baiter and checking this link. http://ozbaiter.nightmail.ru/monica.htm

The "I don't give a shit attitude"? Well, I have read baits in which the scammers suggested that children be left to die for want of medical care because the money involved would make every one forget about it. I have heard of scammers asking the relative of "dead" victims to carry on with the scam without blinking an eye. It doesn't matter that nobody really died, it was just a baiting story, the scammers believed it and didn't care. The aforementioned girl Monica was telling one of the scammers that she couldn't send the money or she couldn't pay rent, she was selling her baby clothes and furniture .
Quote:
Dear mr Koffi Ali You are not happy whit my ? I have done everything for you .I lost my house , my job and a lot more .I have now familie .My friends don't wanne give my money .The father of my baby don't wanne give my money .I have now 100 euro in hands .And I do my best .I wanne have this money also .And why I wanne have this money .To buy an house .And to start over and to be happy . So I will still looking for some money .


The guy wants 1500 Euros, he's already gotten 300 out of her. From a sheer practical standpoint, she's got nothing left, certainly not 1200 euros worth. He still won't quit though, and to top it off she's got two "barristers" tag-teaming her for gifts! For God's sake, the sum total of this womans life is not worth 500 euros and she's got three of these vultures circling the remains of her life all trying to extract their pound of flesh. So who's children are you "giving a shit" about?

I work around children that are on public assistance. I'll never forget the time I overheard a group of them discussing which one of them got free lunch at school and reduced lunch, (most of them had their lunch and breadfast provided for free). The conversation soon turned to what kind of shoes they were wearing and how much they cost. So here we have 5 children whos parents don't make enough money to feed them, yet they can afford $70 tennis shoes, and $50 jeans, and a $50 shirt etc. (and this was almost 10 years ago) Did you know that the cost of 1 package of cigarettes will pay for the breakfast and lunch provided by the school? (and leave some left over). Yet I see parents who would rather smoke cigarettes than feed their children. So what's the point of this diatribe?

It's been fairly well established that the scammers are middle class citizens. They dress relatively well, have computer skills, and own mobile phones. (see J. Dogs' itemization) The truly poor people couldn't afford to even get into the business. I will venture to guess that the scammers take care of their childrens physical needs fairly well, in order to foster their image of conspicious consumption. As to their moral and emotional needs? Well I think we all know the answer to that. If the money we divert (and it isn't much) weren't diverted would it go to their children? Is anyone so na´ve to think that it would? Baiters aren't. The truly poor of Nigeria, the subsistance farmers, the herders and hunter gatherers are not scamming. They are working to survive, to give their children enough to eat, to give them an 8th grade education. The scammers? They are sitting their lazy asses in front of a computer screen, trying to trick hard working people out of their money, not to feed their children, but to drive $70,000 Mercedes, own a mobile phone and laptop, and show off to the other lazy bastards doing the same thing.

So, I applaud Donation Giver for having a concience, and giving serious consideration to what is a moral issue. Police detectives see so much of the evil side of people that it soon spills over to other aspects of their life. Everybody is a liar, murderer, cheat, working an angle. Unless they work really hard, they lose sight of the fact that their are good, honest, right-thinking and doing people in the world. Morals aren't born overnight, they come from observing, reacting, thinking, asking questions, weighing and sifting.

Is there collateral damage from baiting? When evil is attacked sometimes the innocent get hurt. Does that mean that we should leave evil to it's own devices? Of course not. I think baiting helps infinitely more people than it hurts (if it does hurt anyone). Criminals have been arrested as a direct result of baiting, and that saves a lot of innocent people. If I give a beggar a dollar and he spends it on beer instead of food, does that negate my good deed? No, the guilt is on him. I, in my kindness and good intentions, gave him the dollar in good faith. He, in turn, took my charity and kindness and abused it. If I in good faith set out to stop a scammer, and he as a result, harms another does that make me guilty? No that makes him doubly guilty, first because he was attempting to cheat me, secondly because he involved an innocent party, in his attempt to cheat me.

So, I think it is good that people are raising moral questions, obviously the scammers don't. I think that "thinking out loud" helps everybody. I think having doubts keeps us sensitive, caring, moral, and above all human. Everybody has come to his/her position through thinking and soul-searching.I think it's good to have that when dealing with people that act so definately "un-human". I think it would be good not to go for the throat when people pose questions about the morality of what we're doing. Ask them questions in a civil manner and let them clarify their position. This sort of thing has gone on before, and after the smoke cleared we found out we were all on the same page. Not everybody can lay their soul bare in one post. I have found everybody here to be highly intelligent, thinking, caring people. However, I gleaned that information over time. So, if you have a moral question about baiting, I suggest that you read as many posts as possible for two weeks, and , if you still have a question, then ask.

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LiveBait
Hello I'm New here!


Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 10


PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:28 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Donation Giver wrote:
Scamming is a part time job for most of the scammers


No, working at the grocery store is a part time job-scamming just makes you a thief.
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Donation Giver
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I won't respond to the ignorant namecallers that can easily be disposed of and there are simply too many other replies to respond to them all.

I've already stated that I have no remorse for the "mugus" and am NOT defending them. I don't know how many times I need to stress that before it sinks in.

I simply don't consider baiting to be anything more than a sport that does nothing but annoy the scammers and little of anything productive unless you value email jokes. I haven't seen any proof that says scambaiting has eliminated any of these scams. It's kind of like the drug trade, you can arrest a few pushers, but the problem will not go away if baiting is the primary method.

I'm sure there are people out there who bait and also contribute in assisting the authorities shut down scam sites and arresting these criminals as someone in PM pointed out, but most of the replies I've received are from bored guys who use a convenient excuse to waste time and bait as a hobby. The "screw you asshole" mentality makes that pretty clear.
Guest







PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:

I simply don't consider baiting to be anything more than a sport that does nothing but annoy the scammers and little of anything productive unless you value email jokes. I haven't seen any proof that says scambaiting has eliminated any of these scams.


Then you have utterly failed to grasp the extent and scope of our operations. Our group has, among its other documented achievements:

1) Helped the police to make arrests of people who would otherwise swindle people.

2) Closed down dozens of fake bank websites that would otherwise swindle people.

3) Closed down e-mail addresses used for 419 crimes.

4) Reported in excess of 200 bank accounts that were being used to collect the proceeds of crimes. I myself have reported 22 such bank accounts to banks, 6 of which belonged to one criminal alone.

5) Served as a resource to law enforcement agencies worldwide. Much of the information we develop and collect is sent to Interpol and the FBI via a police detective with whom we work.

6) We educate the 10,000's of visitors who come here about 419 crimes.

DG, I think Ambrose Bierce's definition of "critic" applies to you:


Quote:

CRITIC, n.
A person who boasts himself hard to please because nobody tries to please him.

There is a land of pure delight,
Beyond the Jordan's flood,
Where saints, apparelled all in white,
Fling back the critic's mud.

And as he legs it through the skies,
His pelt a sable hue,
He sorrows sore to recognize
The missiles that he threw.
Orrin Goof




Have a nice life!


Last edited by Guest on Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Donation Giver
Guest






PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:46 am Reply with quoteBack to top

J. Dog wrote:
Quote:

I simply don't consider baiting to be anything more than a sport that does nothing but annoy the scammers and little of anything productive unless you value email jokes. I haven't seen any proof that says scambaiting has eliminated any of these scams.


Then you have utterly failed to grasp the extent and scope of our operations. Our group has, among its other documented achievements:

1) Helped the police to make arrests of people who would otherwise swindle people.

2) Closed down dozens of fake bank websites that would otherwise swindle people.

3) Closed down e-mail addresses used for 419 crimes.

4) Reported in excess of 100 bank accounts that were being used to collect the proceeds of crimes. I myself have reported 22 such bank accounts to banks, 6 of which belonged to one criminal alone.

5) Served as a resource to law enforcement agencies worldwide. Much of information is sent to Interpol and the FBI via a police detective with whom we work.

6) We educate the 10,000+ visitors who come here to 419 crimes.

DG, I think Ambrose Bierce's definition of "critic" applies to you:


Quote:

CRITIC, n.
A person who boasts himself hard to please because nobody tries to please him.

There is a land of pure delight,
Beyond the Jordan's flood,
Where saints, apparelled all in white,
Fling back the critic's mud.

And as he legs it through the skies,
His pelt a sable hue,
He sorrows sore to recognize
The missiles that he threw.
Orrin Goof




Have a nice life!


You seem to have ignored my final paragraph.
ExtremeRyno
Wannabe Baiter


Joined: 23 May 2004
Posts: 99
Location: On my motorcycle going to Denny's


PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:49 am Reply with quoteBack to top

While baiting, one can gain access to the scammer's email. One can warn anyone that is being scammed. One can email every potential person on said scammer's list and tell this it is a scam. One can get information from reading scammer's mails, including, but not limited to their real name, address, etc. One can then notify authorities.

It's not difficult to guess most of their passwords, seriously. Plus there are password generator programs widely available on the net that might do the trick. If all else fails, resort to hacking.

Someone such as yourself, DG, can't see past what is immediately in front of you. You see this as all pictures with funny signs gleened from the scammers, when in fact, many of us HAVE the skills to cut a segment from the 419 snake.

Maybe this short explanation helps.

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Quote:
There is no more Westren Union here in South Africa. It is closed for the about two years back.
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Donation Giver
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:54 am Reply with quoteBack to top

ExtremeRyno wrote:
While baiting, one can gain access to the scammer's email. One can warn anyone that is being scammed. One can email every potential person on said scammer's list and tell this it is a scam. One can get information from reading scammer's mails, including, but not limited to their real name, address, etc. One can then notify authorities.

It's not difficult to guess most of their passwords, seriously. Plus there are password generator programs widely available on the net that might do the trick. If all else fails, resort to hacking.

Someone such as yourself, DG, can't see past what is immediately in front of you. You see this as all pictures with funny signs gleened from the scammers, when in fact, many of us HAVE the skills to cut a segment from the 419 snake.

Maybe this short explanation helps.


Yes, but HAS any baiter cut a segment from the snake successfully, or has the segment cut grown back at a larger size?

You use "can" quite often, as if to say one is able but hasn't done so.
Guest







PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I read every word of your last paragraph.

Look, my motto is this:

Quote:


Humor is the distraction that hides the sledgehammer coming their way.



I think you fail to understand what a powerful weapon humor can be in terms of both entertaining and educating the public about 419 crimes while simultaneously gathering information from criminals for law enforcement. Ours is an art that many people do not understand and cannot understand. It is like riding a bike: unless you've actually done it, then your descriptions and opinions are all in the abstract.

You are speaking from the abstract. Personally, I have only made a case because a larger audience, some of whom lurk, will read what I write. If it were just the tw of us, I frankly would not waste my time with you. I do not mean that as an insult. Rather, I mean that you have an a priori
position about scambaiting and so no amount of argument will change your mind. In any case, arguments are in Room Two. This Room is for Abuse, which you have already discovered. That will be $20.00 please.

NB:

Quote:

Yes, but HAS any baiter cut a segment from the snake successfully, or has the segment cut grown back at a larger size?


The reducto ad absurdum of your argument is that people should not fight any type of crime at all because fighting crime is ultimately unsucessful. Humanity has fought murder, rape, war, and theft since the dawn of our race, and yet murder, rape, war, and theft persist. By your lights, we should give up because we have not cut any segments from these snakes, yes? This is what you are saying?


Last edited by Guest on Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:08 am; edited 1 time in total
Master Baits
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 24


PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

DG, can you see that you have changed your position throughout this thread?

If you cannot see that it has changed, please state your position. Just what is your point?
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Donation Giver
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

J. Dog wrote:
I read every word of your last paragraph.

Look, my motto is this:

Quote:


Humor is the distraction that hides the sledgehammer coming their way.



I think you fail to understand what a powerful weapon humor can be in terms of entertaining the public while simultaneously gathering information from criminals. Ours is an art that many people do not understand and cannot understand. It is like riding a bike: unless you've actually done it, then your descriptions and opinions are all in the abstract.

You are speaking from the abstract. Personally, I have only made a case because a larger audience, some of whom lurk, will read what I write. If it were just the tw of us, I frankly would not waste my time with you. I do not mean that as an insult. Rather, I mean that you have an a priori
position about scambaiting and so no amount of argument will change your mind. In any case, arguments are in Room Two. This Room is for Abuse, which you have already discovered. That will be $20.00 please.


Your arrogance and prejudice go hand in hand, don't they?

You think my decision is preordained and cannot be swayed? You think I haven't scambaited in the past? Wrong on both parts. I question things because nothing is absolute and I made that clear. Some of you obviously don't read everything I type and just assume I'm another "anti-baiting of the week poster". I simply bought up a perspective and no one knows for sure what I'm doing behind the scenes.

I don't believe you read my last paragraph since I edited my post late to include it while you were typing a long reply and your response left it out.
Donation Giver
Guest






PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

J. Dog wrote:
I read every word of your last paragraph.

The reducto ad absurdum of your argument is that people should not fight any type of crime at all because fighting crime is ultimately unsucessful. Humanity has fought murder, rape, war, and theft since the dawn of our race, and yet murder, rape, war, and theft persist. By your lights, we should give up because we have not cut any segments from these snakes, yes? This is what you are saying?


Wrong. I am disagreeing with your method of fighting this crime.
Donation Giver
Guest






PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Master Baits wrote:
DG, can you see that you have changed your position throughout this thread?

If you cannot see that it has changed, please state your position. Just what is your point?


Point my changes out please, I'd like to see them.
Master Baits
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 24


PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:07 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Donation Giver wrote:
Master Baits wrote:
DG, can you see that you have changed your position throughout this thread?

If you cannot see that it has changed, please state your position. Just what is your point?


Point my changes out please, I'd like to see them.
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Guest







PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:


Your arrogance and prejudice go hand in hand, don't they?



So you feel I have taunted you, yes? Too bad, smallboy. Suck it up like a man because it goes with territory. I get death threats and so your menial rudeness bounces off my armor.

As to your claims that you've scambaited: Put up or shut up! Show us your published baits or we will conclude you're lying. I will be glad to show you my body of work as will dozens of other people.

I have now thrown down the gauntlet and asked for you to back up your mouth. Will you do so?
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