Atlantic Monthly on B8ers & 419Eater. UPDATED LINK

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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:24 am

I don't agree with everything in the article, but it is not deliberately antagonistic, shows signs of someone having done some work to research it, and expresses a legitimate concern about the distance and feeling of safety from anonymity and the results that can ensue. That said, there's some clear inaccuracies, and a somewhat one-sided take on parts of it.

For my part, the aggravating aspect is that the racism passage in the guidelines is dismissed with a casual "protest too much" remark. Much of the rest of the article tries to be more scholarly, yet this is glib and trite. We worked hard on that passage, and spent a lot of time trying to ensure that the remarks conveyed the sincere ethic of this board. So glad it was a worthwhile investment. Sad

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:35 pm

I found it interesting that the author failed to interview any actual victims of 419 fraud - the elderly and the naive souls who lose everything... or someone who's been jailed in a check mule scam... or Mary Winkler's kids.

I also found it interesting that he assumed all 419 fraud victims are descended from colonialists, and that he assumed that all of us - or any of us, for that matter - are white.

Of course, they learn at journo school never to let a few facts get in the way of moral condescension.

Quote:

I like my superheroes humble.

I like my journos humble. I never get them that way.

Baiting Guru Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 7103 Location: Yes

He's preachy, but this is the Atlantic we're reading...

Then again, one could argue that the author has high standards, and he can certainly appreciate a good bait:

Quote:

To my mind, his greatest achievement is the �Commodore 64� scam-bait, which I would not hesitate to call a scam-baiting work of art. In the hands of a master, a particularly ingenious, devious, and multilayered scam-bait is nothing less than an epistolary coup du th��tre.

Doesn't get much more complimentary that that. His relatively uneducated perspective (he makes no mention of actually trying his hand at baiting, nor communicating with the lads, so he's really only judging what he sees here -- which as we all know, is really only the very end tip of a very large iceberg) shows that he is like anyone else who shows up at Eater for a few days: star-struck, confused, interested, and a bit put off at times.

The idea that we operate in "gray areas" when we make up fake documents and impersonate people to bait the scammers is quite stupid when you spend 3 seconds to consider it, but again, that's his right to think that -- given how little time as he probably spent here.

Give him two months scambaiting and then see what tune he sings.

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:06 pm

So, I'm a Jedi now?
Makes a change from Elite Baiter or whatever its says to the left, his article, whilst good in parts, doesn't seem to show a real in depth knowledge of what happens here, and what happens out there.
As has been mentioned above, no interviews with victims, no mention of the Vlads or the Lottery scammers (Dutch etc)
I quite freely admit I'm a time waster, the lads time that is. I don't see myself as a vigilanty, I cetainly don't hop on a plane, go over 'there' and slap a scammer.
How many more scammers would there be, how many more victims would there be, if it wasn't for the likes of us who put some doubt in the mind of the scammers, and make their activities a bit better known to the general public?
Until the Law Enforcement Agencies of the World get serious with the crimes that we see being committed there will be a need (I think) for those of us who help slow it down, if even only a little bit.

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:35 pm

It seems to me that the author didn't want to appear to be favoring one side or the other, and IMO, over-compensated when he bitched about the percentage of black faces in the Trophy Room, and accused some scambaiters of wreaking physical violence on their victims.

Well here's my tuppence.

No one here is encouraged in any way to break the law....it's discouraged, plain and simple. Anyone who's been here for some time is well aware that discussions of hacking are not tolerated, and neither is racism. Meeting scammers to inflict physical violence? Oh please!

As for the percentage of black faces.....we have no control over where the scammers who write to us come from. Everyone with the normal allotment of functioning brain cells is well aware that scammers are everywhere and are found in existence in those same places where humans are found to exist. That's a fact of life. If other ethnic groups want to get in on the 419 game, well guess what? We'll take them on too. 'Tis a shame that the author coudn't find time to learn about "vlads".

As for why we do this......ask ten different scambaiters and you might get ten different answers. What the lads are doing to people makes me mad as hell, and this is my way of taking care of that anger. I don't believe in beating a dog, but I do believe in slapping a lad.

All right....I've vented.....vent mode is off....I think I'll now go and slap a lad around some.

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:55 pm

I"So much for Objective Journalism. Don�t bother to look for it here -- not under any byline of mine; or anyone else I can think of. With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms." - Hunter S Thompson

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

I don't care one way or the other.

Some stuff he got right, some wrong, some was sexed up to make a more interesting article, and the phrase 'darker gray area' cracked me up and I'm fairly certain that his editor should be horsewhipped for letting that remain in the article.

It's not the first article about Eater, nor will it be the last; I'm more concerned about what we as a community say and do than an outsider who popped in for a bit, looked around, and then went away to write his opinons on what he discovered.

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:54 pm

Quote:

Are the scam-baiters Jedi-like cyber-guardians taking up arms against the Web’s Dark Side, Spam-scam, or are they cyber-vigilantes engaging in vicious pranks that can, at times, border on racism?

I think we are neither, we are just ordinary citizens with bigger than average balls, sorry ladies but I could not think of a female baiters version, who are making a stand for what is right... Wink

The author of that article is neither a scammer or baiter, mearly a plonker. Twisted Evil

Hey, lets bait him Twisted Evil

ok that was a joke alright?

Master Baiter Joined: 05 Sep 2006 Posts: 170

Dark Spirit wrote:

sorry ladies but I could not think of a female baiters version, who are making a stand for what is right... Wink

Bigger ovaries? Laughing

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:39 pm

I felt that it was a fairly decent article...the racism thing does annoy me, but I think some of the things he discusses are right...I mean at first before getting involved, I did have a moral issue about what I might put the scammers through, regardless of whether they do it or not. I do now have no qulams with it, but for a new guy just looking in for research, I can understand his point.

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:59 pm

I also think that, besides the racism slant, which I also think is wrong, overall the article does more good than bad.

On little thing caught my attention, though: he kind of implies this is a community of chest-beating people trying to compete for some grand status. I the few days since I joined I have seen none of that. Every question I have posed, every comment I have made has been responded graciously if not eagerly.

The overall sense I do get is: "You are new? How can we help you bait those bastards and have fun while doing it?".

Cheers...

Not quite a Newb Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 41

^^This is just the honeymoon period, jackndebocks.

The beatings and abuse come later. Laughing

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:04 pm

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:10 pm

The moment I receive abuse treatment I'll send you my Lad's very own "diplomats" to your place and they will not be interested in your signature only Laughing

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:25 pm

The racism thing is always going to crop up. Even though the lads are trying to rob us blind, the mere fact that we're predominantly white and they're predominantly black puts at the wrong end of a bad stereotype. Maybe we should introduce a racial quota system? Bait equal numbers of vlads and lads and you're in the clear? Laughing

As far as trophies go, I'm half way in agreement. I'm in awe of the people who can get new and inventive ones, but I've a feeling that most of the lads you can con into giving them out are just the rank amateurs amongst the opposition. Straight baiting the seasoned professionals, if you can find them, is arguably far more valuable to the cause.

Master Baiter Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 187

I am in the midst of writing a letter to the Atlantic and here are my main points:

I view the publication of the article as positive, as any publicity for advance fee frauds and scam baiting could warn potential victims. However, I fear that the writer could inspire someone to bait without knowing how to bait safe. Second, as others have noted, no scam victims were interviewed to give their side of the story. Third, the whole racism issue gives me the heeby jeebies. Here the writer quotes a scammer and gives his opinion:

Quote:

I don�t realy call it cheating � Some body has to pay what we call retribution From what Africa went through during the Slave trade era � The west took all our resourses, Manpower, and our cultural and traditional wares � Some body will pay some how what your lineage owed
So scamming is retribution, reparation for imperialist exploitation. The fact that those colonialists who actually committed most of the crimes are not the ones paying the reparations, that the most helpless and naive members of the exploiter society (and, of course, nonexploiter societies, since the scam letters go out across the globe and are as likely to snare a Yemenite as a Brooklynite) are paying the penalty doesn�t come up. The scammers might counter that, while their victims include many innocent people, the victims of colonialism included many more innocent people�many millions slaughtered, not just scammed.
(switch to writer's opinion here)
One could make a sincere argument that the 419 scams exact a certain crude, if cruel and indiscriminate, justice for miseries caused by the West�if not justice, then justifiable vengeance. But of course greed, not justice or revenge, is the chief motive of the scammers. It�s a complex issue.

In my opinion, anyone who falls for this argument is really an idiot. I have lived in West Africa for 4 years and I am married to a West African. I have seen first hand that although Europeans and North Americans horribly exploited the African continent in the past, today one can see that the most screwed up countries are not necessarily those who were the most colonized or those most exploited for the slave trade, but those who suffer most from corruption. And the 419 scammers are a part of that corruption. For example, each time that I send a legitimate bank transfer to my husband, or try to receive emergency funds from my family when I am over there, I have to deal with red flags sent up on credit card or bank accounts because the area is associated with fraud. And the much bigger issue: how many legitimate charities or businesses in the area are discredited by their fraudulent counterparts?

I don't doubt that this argument is brought out any time a peon in 419 questions if a scam should proceed. However, does this give me the right to commit crimes against the descendents of Cossacks, since Cossacks terrorized my ancestors? I don't think so. Does this give the right to Bulgarians or Armenians to scam Turks, or the right to Koreans to scam Japanese? I don't think so.

Therefore, I suggest that anyone who wants to help the people of West or South Africa or fight racism to invest in those parts of the world or give to legitimate charities, rather than defending scammers.

And if anyone wants to try an experiment, I bet that if anyone who claims to be the descendent of African slaves--paying money they would otherwise pay for their daughter's lifesaving surgery--for an advance fee...this money would happily be taken by any scammer.

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:43 pm

Good post, Guineagirl! Thanks for giving us an inside perspective.

guineagirl wrote:

I bet that if anyone who claims to be the descendent of African slaves--paying money they would otherwise pay for their daughter's lifesaving surgery--for an advance fee...this money would happily be taken by any scammer.

No bet.

Master Baiter Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 187

My point that almost anywhere in the world, someone is the victim of someone. It is absurd to say that any past victim has the right to "scam" the descendents of the exploiters of their ancestors. For example, one day in my neighborhood, some boys passing on bikes yelled out that "the whites" had colonized their country.

In response, I yelled out that their ethnic group had colonized the town. The truth: their ethnic group had commited genocide against the former occupants of the region, and continue to make ethnocentric jokes against the original inhabitants.

Who is the real racist here?

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:49 pm

Perhaps some facts ought to be furnished to this journalist.

The scientist in me wants to find 419 fraud statistics--perhaps from the secret service or whatever U.S. or U.K. agencies are in charge of it--and correlate them to scambaiting activity, perhaps measured by participation in this forum?

I have searched the forum for anything that resembles this. Maybe I've missed it. I would love to have some data showing that our efforts make a difference. Then again, maybe our anonymity prevents it . . .

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:56 pm

Good luck to you, Guinea Girl!

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 1:02 am

Good call Gnasher. Typical ivory tower pseudo-intellectual crap. I'd add that he infantilizes Africans by trotting out all the usual canards used to abrogate a member of that group's responsibility for his actions. Moreover I guarantee that his invective would not be nearly so bitter if the majority of our victims were Vlads and not Lads, though the former have historically been subject to a level of deprivation approaching that of the latter. If anyone is a racist, it is Ron Rosenbaum.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:56 am

I would have refrained from using the terms "idiot" and "peon". Making character assumptions (assassinations) are not "journalistic" and would work against you in getting it published. You notice he never called us racist (I don't remember that anyway), only implied and questioned motives toward racism. There is a journalistic different that can make the difference in showing yourself as a nut or a person willing to discuss a topic sensibly. I would have use for idiot "a person laboring under a misconception" and "peon" I'll not really sure what you mean that word to represent.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:13 am

There are a few online comments on this article now, all of which appear to have been written by baiters. They tend to pick on one point rather than address the entire article. Somebody with more time than I have could/should write a longer more reasoned reply, which could/should get published in the next edition of The Atlantic.

Better than a comment or a letter to the editor would be another article, which would give scamming and baiting a much deeper treatment, including all the different types of scamming, victim experiences, baiting and other anti-scamming measures etc.

Somebody else could/should tie in the whole scamming/baiting scene with the overall economy and culture of Nigeria, as per an article that appeared a year ago or so in The Atlantic. In Nigerian culture in general there are magas and ogas, and of course the scammers have ogas too. Some of us very successfully impersonate ogas. There's also a very strong evangelical Christian current in all Western Africa, which church baits take advantage of nicely.

Somebody else could explain where vlads come in. If Russia is swimming in money from its natural gas reserves, why do they need love scams?

The subject is crying out for a broader overview, and no online comment or reply letter could possibly over it.

I'm a little shocked that a reputable intellectual magazine like The Atlantic would publish such a shallow article. However, the one point that I'll grant this author is that he observes the very strong negative currents running through the Eater. I don't think it's bad at all, but most of us here are running on negative energy--doing bad things to bad people--which has very good consequences but is still negative action. Please, nobody point out to me that there's no positive action (empathy with scammers? Slavery reparations??? Job training????) we could take that would do nearly the good that we do now; I know that.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:14 am

MikeHawk, if you want to use positive energy instead, I recently started a church that provides help to many orphans in West Africa. We accept donations via WU.

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:21 am

You also have to wonder if this journo discovered his parents had been systematically giving away the family inheritance to internet scammers over the course of several months/years he'd be quite so morally superior about our actions and motives. I bet he'd be here begging for help, baying for blood and intent on retribution and to hell with the ethics.

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