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 Atlantic Monthly on B8ers & 419Eater. UPDATED LINK

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MikeH
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Joined: 08 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:47 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Just appeared:
This article from The Atlantic Online has been sent to you by:

http://www.theatlantic.com/r/rdQSoB8fPYk%3D%0A

This link will expire on May 10. Also note that, if you are not yet an Atlantic subscriber, you may access the article only by following the link.

The article really annoyed me. It is superficial and judgmental. The author seems to think that baiters are almost as bad as scammers, if not worse.

He also seems to think that racism underlies most of our actions His "proof": just look at all the pictures in the trophy room. Yeah, right.

His gratuitous (and unwelcome) explicit advice to us is "lose the trophy room." His gratuitous (and unwelcome) implicit advice is, "stop having so much fun."

However, you might say that any publicity is good publicity, and if it gets more people into baiting, I have to approve.

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Last edited by MikeH on Tue May 08, 2007 12:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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icrighthruU
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

The carved computer is old news send the writer a link to the lad who lights himself on fire Twisted Evil
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Spudz
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:11 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Wow, he really got the wrong end of the stick there. I have never seen anyone here claiming to "own" a Lad, or ANY mention of racism other than it will not be tolerated and rightly so.

I`m sure we`re going to have some crazies come a calling after that.

EDIT: and where did he get this from?
Quote:
And then there are troubling hints on the Web sites of an even darker practice known as “extreme anti-scamming,” which seems to involve physical attacks on scammers


Rolling Eyes x 10

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AlexS
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Now i'm not what you would call experienced at this. But all i see this scam-baiting stuff as being is getting one back on the people who are hurting the innocent.

I cannot believe that this journo thinks it could be a twisted revenge for the slave trade or about racism.
Some people just can't accept the truth.

[rant over]
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FiveForces
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:19 am Reply with quoteBack to top

The lads wouldnt be doing all the things we inflict on them if they wern't trying to rob us. The colour of their skin and exactly what lengths they're willing to go to to scam money out of "innocent victims" is incidental to the fact that they would happily rob an old woman blind if she could get to a Western Union office!

Still, I always enjoy reading about the things fellow baiters have put lads through Laughing

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anitamugu
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Way too preachy an article for my taste. Sounds like someone just wanted a soapbox moment.
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SlayerFaith
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:01 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
This specificity probably shouldn’t be seen as evidence of possession of actual nuclear devices, though it might suggest where the “intelligence” on Saddam’s WMD originated.

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Gnasher
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Did this pompous windbag take the trouble to speak to anyone here? I don't like his 'holier than thou' pseudo-intellectual, sneering tone either but I guess any article that brings scamming to the attention of a wider public has to be A Good Thing.

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Last edited by Gnasher on Fri May 04, 2007 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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VigilantCustard
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

A pretty decent and even-handed article, in my view. True, there are moments where his writing is a little cheez-y and immature, but for the most part it's an interesting and relatively objective outsider's analysis of what goes on here. It is obvious that the author's heart is in the right place--He is not trying to push an anti-scambaiter agenda, he is just trying to understand the realities of what is going on here.

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Franc28
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Given how even-handed you guys are in treating your own hobby... Rolling Eyes ... an opposite perspective is rather welcome, in my view.

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DrWho
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:39 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I would have to say that I agree with a couple of his observations, but that I could argue that him believing that having a bunch of pictures of black scammers implies racism implies that he may have a bit of racism in his own statement if that is his first conclusion. He is basically drawing the conclusion that all scammers are black. It is like going to one "mommy and me class" and saying that all the members are always women. (I use to take my kids to those also) So he would be sexist making that statement.

He is probably reading this . . . Hi!

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Josh
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:49 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I thought it was an interesting article, and if not saying that scambaiting has pushed over the edge of what is and is not acceptable, it does highlight areas that we would need to be careful of.
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rhinocoress
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:16 am Reply with quoteBack to top

who cares what he thinks, theres nothing injust about this kind of recreation. the lads that fall for a bait are actually deserving of it, unlike their victims, and they can easily back down from the humiliation if they werent blinded by greed.
he treats scam baiting like a job in some way, this is all volunteer, and all in fun; to protect the decieved out there and bring a little more fairness to the tables since the authorities have less ability to control online fraud
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it wasn't me
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:19 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I was so ready to just tut and think Rolling Eyes about his article, but, I thought he was actually very kind about Eater and the things we do. To some people, the things we get up to are a cause for discussion. Many times on this forum, someone will say "But is it right?"
I, for one, think tattoo's/branding/cattle prod up the arse etc is too good for these low life w*****rs, but that's because I've seen the photo's of the burn/cancer/death victims they use to gain sympathy and in the end, money and I've read far too many sad stories of old ladies/young mums/broken hearted men, who've been conned out of everything, sometimes even losing thier homes.
So, in the end, I thought his article was fair.

(Climbs down off soapbox and walks away waiting for a slap))

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Last edited by it wasn't me on Fri May 04, 2007 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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GordonBennett
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:19 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Interesting, and I'd agree with about 85%. He gets some stuff just wrong, such as the carving (the sqirrel was in the head, not the Commodore (wasn't it?), and draws some unusual conclusions especially regarding the ethics, but he is right in some areas, particularly..

While it must be annoying to have people endlessly turn up here and say "um this is a bit extreme", or "hang on, this guy is innocent" some of the reactions have been quite nasty.

This comment
Quote:
Maybe it's time to weed out the innocent? Shouldn't baiting be aimed just at the guilty, minimising collateral damage as much as possible?
elicited this quick response
Quote:
I turn around and we're hugging lads again?
which was undeserved in my view.

Sometimes it seems more fun to go with a good bait and justify the inclusion of extras by saying
Quote:
They might not even be innocent.
which appeared a bit lower down. Or
Quote:
there are undoubtedly some other lads in the choir who might well be involed in fraud, the main lad is a 419er, and chances are that some of his friends in that church are likely to be involved in or have been involved in 419 before, so I don't feel that bad
(My italics)
Methinks someone is trying too hard to justify things, but I got slapped for a much more minor comment and I fully expect to be slapped again for this.
Perhaps the best comment I found was this one from Pastor Frank
Quote:
We do need to self police to make sure we don't get out of line

Don't slap the reality checkers - they perform a service too.

Coo, that went off the subject a bit didn't it? - I must have been storing that up..

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Josh
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:29 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I think that was the point I was trying to make. That the article doesn't necessarily say we're doing anything particularly wrong at the moment, it's just saying to be aware of what's going on and be aware that at times we're pushing limits.

The times when I've had a bit of a moral dilemma are when reading the scam-baits related to wood carvings and/or novel copying. It's not that I feel sorry for the actual scammers, but I doubt that they're the ones who end up doing the work on those sorts of tasks. So in the end a real artist/sculptor or poor sod who spends days copying out a book gets nothing because the scammer isn't going to pay them until he gets his money (which he never will). That's a bit of a grey area in my opinion.

(If what i just wrote makes any sense).
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Gantz
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Seems to me that the journo is a little naive and needs to learn a bit more about human nature. Other than that and his dwelling on the racism issue I thought it was pretty flattering toward the site.
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thefife
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I thought he brought up some interesting ideas about cyber behavior and trying to analyze how the baiter/scammer dynamic can evolve into someone handwriting Harry Potter, sending carvings, getting tatts. IMO, it would have been a much more interesting article if he'd focused on that.

The whole rascism aspect sounded like white guilt. Frankly, I don't understand why an African scammer would even say they are scamming people because of the slave trade b/c their ancestors were the ones collecting fees for rounding up the people to be sold. Obviously, Africa has been exploited in disgusting ways, but that doesn't give scammers the right to bilk average people out of their hard earned money. Why not run scams against the British, French, US, etc. goverments if it's all about exacting justice for exploitation? If the author is so concerned about rascism, why not look into how these scammers are doing everything in their power to diminish the world's view of Africans, especially Nigerians?

These lads are liars and theives plain and simple. They will do anything to anyone for a buck and it's ok to say that if it's true. I agree some of the things baiters have had lads do is kind of mean, but it's no meaner than a scammer convincing someone to send them their life savings. If a lad is willing to get a tattoo, hold up a sign, send an audition video, or get piercings, then that was his choice, he could have said no and hurled death threats for the baiter to put in their sig. What's wrong w/ expecting the scammers to take some responsibility for what THEY started in the first place? Baiting is a consequence for their decision to send out the scam email, why is the author crying foul b/c the scammer ended up getting played? Too bad, so sad, oh well!

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GordonBennett
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I'll be curious to see the reaction here if someone dies (and the most likely idiots are stunt boy and the various, now well stranded, safari boys).
Don't get me wrong, I believe that they have most of what they get coming to them. My only concern is collateral damage that goes beyond the everyday inconveniences of life and involves innocent people getting their hopes up for something that will never happen - isn't it precisely that which they are doing to the victims, money aside? The carvers and handwriters would not have had those dreams so they would have had none to be dashed (and they can kick the lad for non-payment)
Stunt boy is another matter - is it ethical to beat up (or get him to beat himself up) when he is clearly such a complete idiot? It's like trying to depress teenagers, way too easy.

You've got to be careful of collateral damage, in my view, so you don't end up with more people angry with 'whitey' and seeking revenge, quite apart from the ethics.

Of course if I was that worried I wouldn't be here..

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it wasn't me
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:28 am Reply with quoteBack to top

GordonBennett wrote:
so you don't end up with more people angry with 'whitey' and seeking revenge, quite apart from the ethics.


That's like saying all scammers are 'black'. All scambaiters are not 'white' Confused

No offence GB, maybe it just read wrong?

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GordonBennett
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:31 am Reply with quoteBack to top

None taken - that's why I put it in quote marks - I'm guessing it would be their reaction.

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chatterbot
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:59 am Reply with quoteBack to top

The author starts with some entertaining stories about our lad-humiliation then addresses the immediate concerns that most readers would have. He ends with some finger-wagging.

Anyway, moving on to the author's substantive concerns: "What started out as a good-natured form of rough justice has become, in some respects, a theater of cruelty."

Um, ok, but these are criminal we're talking about, ones largely untouched by the justice system. I suspect that all of them would choose our humiliation over the sentencing that would be meted out by any partly-functioning judicial system. The trophy room really doesn't inflict any cruel and unusual punishment: it's more like a slap on the wrists.

Anyway, I consider this good publicity and fairly weak criticism. Some of the author's lit-crit language was pretty funny, albeit unintentionally in part.
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Is he speaking for the victims ? and does he know who the victims are ? It sounds to me as if he has misplaced his concerns to those who may complain the loudest (the scammers), not the real victims who are too ashamed and devastated to be able to voice their own despair.

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Josh
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

thefife wrote:
If the author is so concerned about rascism, why not look into how these scammers are doing everything in their power to diminish the world's view of Africans, especially Nigerians?


In some ways I think this is perhaps the best argument for scam-baiting that is out there. Scammers are seriously degrading their own country's reputation by doing what they are doing, and potentially seriously harming their own country's economy in the process. What business in their right mind would deal with Nigeria knowing the place's reputation, unless they were absolutely 110% sure it was legit. The number of international business deals that are simply not happening because of Nigeria's reputation could potentially be staggering.

It could be argued that we're fighting for Nigeria's reputation, that people from that country should be thanking us for doing our little bit to stop scammers from destroying their country's international reputation.
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
....But some in the scam-baiting community also take pleasure in mean-spirited mockery,


There is nothing mean-spirited in my mockery. It is nothing more than the lowlife scammers deserve, irrespective of the colour of their skin, their religious beliefs and their sexual orientation.

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