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 Are we scamming the mugus?

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Shadow
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

In your opinion, do you think that we're scamming the scammers?

I've noticed that some baiters have received money, shirts, ties (awesome accomplishments, in my opinion Wink ) from the mugus. But, I have to wonder if it's wrong on our part. Is it stealing in your opinion?

Another question, are there legal issues with keeping the money or items from them? Since we're pretending to send them money in return for these things, is it technically scamming?

I'm not sure about my stance on this. I'm torn. But what are your opinons on this?
conjuuv02
Wannabe Baiter


Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada


PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'm just as torn as you, but somtimes I think it's more like a Robin Hood kind of deal, because most of us who recieve money give it to charities and such things.
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ronin
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Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

well. they've promised to send us millions back. so..
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Skratchy_Seal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I was thinking the same thing. In my opinion, it is scamming. The scambaiters that do this are misrepresenting what the money will be used for, so technically, it is.

Do I think it's wrong? No. Like what was said earlier, the money usually goes to charities and such. It does make me smile to know that they are the ones losing money in these cases.
Shiver Metimbers
419Eater Admin


Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 7468


PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Yes, I'm guilty. Is what I'm doing legally wrong? Yes, technically it is. Is it morally wrong? Not sure. Do I give a rats ass about defrauding a scammer who has probably scammed tens of thousands of dollars from innocent victims? Not one tiny bit.

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Dr Strangelove
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 23


PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I'd like to think of the scammer-scammers as the Mark Brandon Read's of the internet world Wink
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Oz_Baiter
Cryogenically Frozen


Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 2308
Location: wherever I want to be!


PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

For those who don't know who Mark Reid is, he is more commonly referred to as "Chopper Reid"

A very well known figure in the Australian underworld and subject of the movie Chopper.

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Dr Strangelove
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 23


PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

ahhh yes, sorry I shoulda clarified Very Happy

standover man, in his prime he made a living by robbing drug dealers, pimps & armed robbers, and generally spreading paranoia Wink
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Biff Pile-On
419Eater is my life


Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 435
Location: Florida USA


PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:41 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Who cares? The scammers are not even human beings in my eyes. They deserve nothing but contempt and derision. Although I am not a violent person by nature, I would not hesitate to put some serious bodily injury to a scammer if I ever had the chance.

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LastStand
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I asked myself that question when I began and the honest answer is yes, we are scamming them. But I am not torn. I am not doing this for personal gain. And as fun as it is, the humor of it all is just a pleasant side effect. I do it because I can't stand people that prey on the weak. These guys deserve it and no one else is making a serious attempt to stop them. They deserve whatever we throw at them and of that I have no doubt.
action_man
Master Baiter


Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 114


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:58 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Biff Pile-On wrote:
Who cares? The scammers are not even human beings in my eyes.


Er. Right.

Calm down.

Trying to dehumanise people is the thing people do before they try and deny them their human rights.
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Biff Pile-On
419Eater is my life


Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 435
Location: Florida USA


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:19 am Reply with quoteBack to top

action_man wrote:
Trying to dehumanise people is the thing people do before they try and deny them their human rights.


Sorry, still don't see them as human beings. Human beings have a modicum of respect for each other. These sycophants care for nothing more than meeting their base needs. They would snatch the dying breath out of their own mothers lungs if it could be sold. Feral animals act in the same way. Whatever humanity these cretins once had has been long lost. They deserve no sympathy from anyone.

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Mountain Cat 1M
Master of Master Baiters


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Newfoundland


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

In my case I told the lad I was going to give nothing in return for the tie. He was just trying to secure our relationship for the $4,000 fees. Weighing out the options....a lad loses a few bucks or an article of clothing versus an innocent person losing thousands of dollars.

Also, they are contacting me first with an intention to rob me.

I do see your point, very much so. But they wouldn't hesitate to take your money, there are $$ in their eyes. Someone posted weeks ago that you shouldn't tell your lad that it was a reverse scam, as he/she would be aware of baiters. But perhaps we should be telling them they've been had, embarress the crap out of them, and make them feel like fools, they may not be as anxious next time to try to scam someone, especially if they've been had a few times.

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Shadow
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Lots of good points. I guess when it comes down to it, they wouldn't hesitate to take all of your money even if you would die because of it. So taking things from them isn't such a big deal. I still feel bad, but most of them, if not all, deserve to be made fools of and stolen from.
Groovlstk
419Eater is my life


Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 269
Location: USA


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:08 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
I was thinking the same thing. In my opinion, it is scamming. The scambaiters that do this are misrepresenting what the money will be used for, so technically, it is.


Stick around, I'm willing to bet that if you hang around here for a few months and see the trail of ruined lives these guys leave in their wake, you'll feel a bit differently.

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stargazer3451
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:12 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I figure it like this. The cops cant stop them so what were doing is the work of the police by gathering evidence then acting as judge by giving them a small fine, and lots of agony hehehe.
tritium
419Eater is my life


Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 253
Location: Toronto, Canada


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:22 am Reply with quoteBack to top

There is a huge difference between what we do and what the scammers do. When Shiver hits up his lads for money, they are inconsequential amounts. When the scammers hit up their victims for money, they will keep doing it until they have every last penny. These assholes ruin lives. We are not here to ruin lives, we are here to humiliate the scammers and have fun at their expense.

So yes while it is technically illegal for us to be getting money and ties and shirts and whatever from the scammers, from a moral standpoint I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. The more time and money they waste on us, the less they can spend on real victims. It may not be immediately apparent, but dozens and dozens of victims (and potential victims) have been warned away from scammers due to the excellent work of some members. That is making a positive difference.

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Charlie Fake
Master of Master Baiters


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 773
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:40 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't consider them human beings either, and I base this purely on observation of their behaviour.
They do not act like you or I - they are lacking things that should be there, and what is there is limited. We see the same tendencies crop up repeatedly. For example:

1. An inability to view things from other peoples perspective in any great depth (I've noticed this time and time again).

2. They are totally egocentric. It's just 'me, me, me'.

3. Because they cannot see things from viewpoints other than their own, they are utterly without morals or compassion. If they have a chance to rip off a childrens hospital, any thoughts of remorse or pity won't even enter into their minds.

4. They think on some kind of lower level. This is reflected in the outrageously bogus passports, pics, etc. they try to pass off on us, thinking we would fall for it. Maybe in their eyes, such obvious fakes are convincing.

5. They have no common sense and have a limited ability to reason - eg. a lad claims to be a barrister, then sends you a photo of some dodgy-looking guy sitting on a dirty sofa, and claims it is him. Who's going to be taken in by that? Very few make any effort to at least TRY to make their scam look convincing. Again, they can't think ahead and can't see it from their victims perspective. I think the lad pictures from Shiver's 'Church of Bread and Wine' bait is a particularly strong example of this - the lads don't even try to make it seem real, not even in their facial expressions. Every one of them looks guilty and suspicious, and it doesn't even occur to them that this works against them.

6. They have no mental agility - they can only see things in simple terms. This is why baiters can run rings round them. I don't think this is due to a lack of education on their part either.

7. They can't think very far ahead. I've had many lads make unbelievably careless mistakes in their scam attempt, stating different things to what they'd put in their last email only days before. Sometimes they even contradict themselves.

8. They seem driven by an almost primal instinct - 'I want this. To get this, I need money. I must have money NOW'. Similar behaviour can be seen in sex-based baits where the lad rattles out all kinds of lurid crap. They are like horny animals.


I haven't even begun to mention the violent ones, who are prepared to kidnap or murder a victim in cold blood without hesitation and feel absolutely NO remorse.
All the evidence I've seen points to the same conclusion - we're dealing with some kind of subhuman here. They are just lower down the chain.
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Oz_Baiter
Cryogenically Frozen


Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 2308
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:49 am Reply with quoteBack to top

For those who still have an ounce of sympathy for scammers, I suggest you read this link

This victim was originally discovered by Kom and I am mirroring it on my server.

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RooRoo
Elite Baiter


Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 1709


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:27 am Reply with quoteBack to top

This is all well and good, but however low/evil/subhuman we may think the lads are, our assessment of their worth as human beings doesn't really speak to Shadow's original question, is it wrong to con them out of money.

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rogermegoodly
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Joined: 12 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

IMHO, it isn't wrong.

Looking at it this way, if the scammer is successfully getting money out of victims, however large the amount, we haven't really caused much hardship with "tokens" he sends. OTH, if the scammer is a newbie him(her) self, and we make their early efforts sting a little, they may be encouraged to drop scamming as a way of life.

I'd also like to think that for every one I tie up, I provide a chance for some working stiff to provide for his family instead of WUXfer'ing every penny to some con artist (broadest definition of artist possible here) in the hopes of making a quick million.

Of course I was actually majoring in Psychology prior to jumping into IT, so, at least for me, it's an execise in getting into their heads and probing the depths of that greed.

So, it's humorous, mentally stimulating, sometimes rewarding, occassionally altruistic, but not really wrong.

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Buta Shi
Master Baiter


Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 122
Location: Japan


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I have um... considered this issue for er... quite some time. Smile

There are many people posting who have excellent points. They are all good. You will find a wide spectrum of feelings about this and other points re: baiting.

I think in the long run, people will move away from scamming for "money." Taking money might be counterproductive for baiters in the long run, but not so much in the short run. I think that scamming for anything else aside from money is fair game.

There are tons of ins and outs to the question. It is probably illegal. Knowing what we know about that scamming "business", it is almost certainly not "immoral." My feeling is that it COULD become an issue for larger society, but that is not probable. If it DOES become an issue for larger society, it might help scambaiting more than hurt it.

Bait your morals. I would warn a baiter about taking money, but I would not discourage it.

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Dr Strangelove
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 23


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:02 am Reply with quoteBack to top

personally I would say a street-mugger being mugged is poetic justice.
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Epistimon
Not quite a Newb


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 49
Location: Hurricane Alley


PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:03 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Make sure you go and read Oz_Baiters link. This scammer got about half of what he asked for, and this girl was telling him she had to sell her baby's clothes, crib, etc, for the rest. He didn't blink an eye just kept on telling her how close they were to closing the nonexistant deal. He couldn't just take what he had, he wanted it all even if it left her without a roof over her head. Not to mention the "barrister" that started asking for gifts. It's like watching a horrible accident in slow motion. You know the carnage is coming but you can't tear yourself away. If you have any doubts you need to read the link.

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Skratchy_Seal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:05 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Groovlstk wrote:
Quote:
I was thinking the same thing. In my opinion, it is scamming. The scambaiters that do this are misrepresenting what the money will be used for, so technically, it is.


Stick around, I'm willing to bet that if you hang around here for a few months and see the trail of ruined lives these guys leave in their wake, you'll feel a bit differently.


I think you misread my post. I love that this happens. I love that the tables are turned on them, and they are the ones losing money. Even though it is nothing compared to what victims lose, any little bit these scammers lose puts a smile to my face.

My quote above is from a technicality standpoint, not a moral one.
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