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 Ethics

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chaos
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:00 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hey, I am extremely new to this, and have an idea to a bait. However, I am not sure if this is morally alright.

I am the founder of a company that delivers erotic art to adult site. This includes drawings and photos. Maybe even carvings. This idea has some benefits:

1) It is very believable that I want unique art from africa and asia, as porn comes in so many different shapes, and people want to pay for a niche.

2) It is also very believable that I am willing to pay generously for this kind of work, as it is hard for comsumers to get true african erotic art.

3) It will most likely be fairly expensive to produce. You either need an artist (for the paintings/carvings) or a photographer and some models.

4) I will have to ask them do some pretty weird stuff, to be sure that I get some unique art, that is not downloaded from some random site.

5) There are so many good reasons to reject their work. (poor quality, too little varitation, models not beautiful enough, etc.).

6) The product (drawings/photos) can be send by email.

However, I am not sure to go through with this. It does involve some innnocent third parties, but I have seen several baits here that does, and am in doubt what to do.

I don't want to hear stuff like 'porn is disgusting and the work of satan!', or any other crap like that. I don't care what you think of porn, I do however care what you think of the ethics of baiting.

Any input will be appriciated.

EDIT: Spelling


Last edited by chaos on Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:23 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi chaos,

Welcome to eater Smile I see you have already asked for a mentor, so I guess you already had one assigned Smile

Regarding your questions:

Usually we go with the opinion, that it is ok to do this kind of stuff.
I can tell you why: The scammer has to pay the others to do that kind of stuff for him, or he even tells them, that he expects some money from it, or the involved people know that he is a scammer and that he is trying to scam you (in which case, it serves them right anyways).
So if the scammer doesn┤t pay them, it would bring him in big trouble with the other ones involved, and this is exactly what we want. Usually the scammers do have some money, so the other ones will get their money for their work from him, may it be voluntarily or by force Wink
So I would say: Go ahead and get yourself some nice porn trophies Wink

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Hoyt
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:37 am Reply with quoteBack to top

One could probably decorate their house with help from their lads Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:33 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Many years ago my brother returned from Spain with a carving of a man in a barrel, about 8 inches high. When you pulled the barrel up 3 thing popped out, 2 where his arms, the other I leave to your imagination. I think this is actually based on a fertility symbol. As a house decoration it would have to be bigger though.

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Tsnerd
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:19 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
However, I am not sure to go through with this.


If you have doubts, don't do it.

Quote:
It does involve some innnocent third parties, but I have seen several baits here that does


How does your idea involve innocent third parties?

Please provide examples of the several baits that you've seen here that do.

Lastly, thank you for succinctly outlining exactly what types of comments you're looking for, and which you don't want.

That is very refreshing; most members, when asking for advice or help, don't do that. This ultimately leads to comments like, "Porn is disgusting and the work of Satan!"....even in threads that don't involve porn.

Well done.

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chaos
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

TSnerd wrote:

If you have doubts, don't do it.


Or, I can remove the doubt.

Quote:

How does your idea involve innocent third parties?


It involves innocent third parties because the lad lad most likely wont pose on the pictures himself, nor will/can he draw or carve. He will have to pay other people to do said things.

Quote:

Please provide examples of the several baits that you've seen here that do.


http://www.419eater.com/html/williams_smith.htm

I bet the scammer did not carve that himself. Even if he did, there are several similar baits out there.

Quote:

Lastly, thank you for succinctly outlining exactly what types of comments you're looking for, and which you don't want.


No, that was not what I did. At least not what I meant to do. I can accept if people think that getting innocent third parties to pose on pornographic pictures is crossing a line. The scammers might exploid people to get what I ask for, and my concern is: is there a greater risk of hurting innocent third parties when asking for porn, than when asking for carvings of a dog and a cat?


Quote:

That is very refreshing; most members, when asking for advice or help, don't do that. This ultimately leads to comments like, "Porn is disgusting and the work of Satan!"....even in threads that don't involve porn.

Well done.


I sense a certain degree of hostility. Why?
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Scam Patroller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Porn is disgusting and the work of satan





























I love Satan Laughing

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Nurse Nasty
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:09 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It's not that we're hostile, we're just so incredibly bored with the 'ethics of scambaiting' question.

I understand that you're new, but I promise you the search function here does work. If you do a search for 'ethics baiting' you'll find many threads were new members attempted to reason with this dilemma.

Ethics here can be defined as; We have them. Do we care that some lad had another lad make a piece of art for one of us? Nope. Because the lad that is scamming now owes money to the artist. The artist will be angry. The artist may own a large bat or club. The artist may decide the lad has to pay via a sound flogging or giving up his TV, DVD player, Celine Dion CD's and DKNY designer boxer shorts. It's a circle of life thing.

You're not preaching to the converted. You however want answers, and I doubt any you'll accept any other answer than - 'We don't know if the lad paid for someone to stand in that picture, or build that pyramid, or lay in a bath full of cheetos, or wanked a bull.'

We'd like to think that they did. If they didn't I'd be pretty cranky about not being paid for riding an inflatable donkey or dressing like a Knight of the round table with my pants down. I would want my promised funds. If I didn't get them I'd ask once more before pawning their motorbike and clothes.

So when TSnerd says, 'If you have doubts, don't do it' he's not hostile. He means, 'If YOU have doubts, YOU don't have to do it.' Removing the doubt thingo? I have no idea how you do that.

As long as scammers time and resources have been wasted, and they will pose with cucumbers in their mouths while pouring milk over each other, scam baiting will remain the ultimate email sport. We're just doing our bit to make the world a better place by crushing their will to scam.

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Tsnerd
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Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Here is the post I made in yesterday's ethics thread:

I wrote:
Howdy and welcome here. Very Happy

Here's a nifty thread from one of last year's ethics question threads. I chose this thread because it also contains links to several of the other ethics threads that we've had.

http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85164&highlight=ethics+pictures

Long and short- if it makes you uncomfortable, don't have your lad do it.


You wrote:
I sense a certain degree of hostility. Why?


I'm not sure. I assure you that there was no hostility in my post.

Rolly-eyed amusement? Certainly.
Sarcasm? Most likely.
No hostility, though.

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chaos
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks for your input Nurse Nasty, but I cannot for the life of me figure out if you think I should go ahead and do it, or not. This goes for pretty much every answer in this thread, except for the first one.

It sounds like most of you don't care one way or another, which is probably the truth then.
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chaos
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

TSnerd wrote:

Long and short- if it makes you uncomfortable, don't have your lad do it.


Alright, let me ask in another way then: "Can I post the results on this site?".


Quote:

I'm not sure. I assure you that there was no hostility in my post.

Rolly-eyed amusement? Certainly.
Sarcasm? Most likely.
No hostility, though.


Well, thats good... I guess. Smile
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Tsnerd
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:35 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
It sounds like most of you don't care one way or another, which is probably the truth then.


Not true.

All of us have lines that we won't cross.

That is up to each baiter to decide and can't be dictated by others.

When I said that if it makes you uncomfortable don't do it, that is exactly what I meant.

If your bait breaks the law or otherwise goes against Forum policies and you try to post it here then we'll step in.

Otherwise it isn't our place to dictate your morality and what you, or any other baiter, may or may not do during a bait.

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Nurse Nasty
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:03 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

^^^ Yeah, what he said.

Some light reading.

http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17464

http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32877

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Saint Arnold
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Maybe this story will help you rest easier with your ethics question.

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JMRazor
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:15 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The point is that you'll never know if the lad forced someone at gunpoint to carve a phallus for you so if you are even 1% worried about that possibility, don't do it. Focus instead on straight-baiting which revolves around wasting the time of lads and frustrating them so that they leave real victims alone, or at least have less time to devote to such victims.

That type of activity you can be assured is not harming anyone (well, I suppose they could be holding an internet cafe owner at gunpoint to allow them access to the computer... Wink ), and you'll be able to sleep better at night.

Disclaimer: The above is not to be construed as hostile nor even fertile. You read my posts at your own risk. Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:39 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

chaos wrote:
Alright, let me ask in another way then: "Can I post the results on this site?".
It depends what it is. Nudity is OK, and I imagine most erotic art except photos or extreme stuff would be OK so long as it carried a NSFW tag. (Not Safe For Work ie dont view it where you may get in trouble for it.) We would tend to expect photographic explicit nudity to be masked with blurs, pixelation etc. but a sculpture or painting would probably be OK without. With anything stronger you're probably better off not posting them.

Remember this website has to follow the law, so nothing illegal should be even mentioned.

If you have any doubts when you're about to post, then PM the pictures to Nurse Nasty, who has a strong stomach and will let you know how to handle them.

Good luck. The number of acquired photo trophies with anything stronger than nudity could probably be counted on one hand. It is not easy. On the other hand an 18" carving of Ron Jeremy's wanger may be easier.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Quote:
Thanks for your input Nurse Nasty, but I cannot for the life of me figure out if you think I should go ahead and do it, or not.


Based on that reply alone, I would say the answer is a resounding "NO!."

If you are not comfortable, or if you are unsure, don't do it. It really is that simple.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:58 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Do I enjoy a good pr0n bait? Heck yes!

RockSTL and I are baiting this guy that is a complete numpty. The man is a trophy machine. I know for a FACT that this guy is the one who is being baited.

If you would like to see a guy holding his d!ck with a pair of tongs, clicke here: NSFW 1

Here is his collection:

Kevin

Now, RockSTL has convinved this guy he will get paid for this. Do we feel bad that he took his clothes off and made a complete jackass of himself? No. Why? Becuase he was going to rip off a pastor for over $100k.

Most of the guys you see in the pr0n pictures are not little guys. No one would be forcing them to take them.

Also, on the question about the art bait... Big Worm and I are working on one that we know the scammer had to pay another artist to do the work. So what? The artist got paid and everyone is happy. Now, the scammer is selling his laptop to get money for shipping. These artists are not going to do this stuff for free.

SO, in conclusion, my theory is go for it, if you don't feel bad. They are either going to have to pay for someone to take these pictures or make the carvings, or get their legs broken for not paying. A win/win if you ask me.

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chaos
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Alright, thank you to everyone who posted here.

I have decided not to proceed with this idea. For now. I might want a little more experience.

Now I just gotta come up with something equally believable. Something that costs 'em money, and wastes their time. I would love to make them travel around the continent to gather dirt for funerals of african imigrants in europe, who wants to get buried in dirt from their birth place.

I dont know if these scammers are aware that it is illegal to import dirt, or at least almost impossible to obtain a permission.

Oh well.

*think think think*
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:49 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Safaris are HUGE time and money wasters. They are my favorite!

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chaos
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

haha, I can see that in your sig. Very Happy


Last edited by chaos on Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

If you are open to ideas, you might try to form an African version of an American Football team, if you could fill all the positions you would have 45 players plus coaches heading somewhere for trials. I don't if if you score one safari for each player or one for the whole lot?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

What CW didn't tell you is that they're the hardest bloody bait to pull of.
Without kissing his butt too much, I'd say that he is a genius at it and makes it look too easy.
Instead, why not take the advice given here earlier? Go for a straight bait and ease yourself in gently.

If you can pull off a safari first time, then I salute you. But in all honestly, I reckon you're better off working your way up to it. That way you avoid immediate dissapointment and get to learn what you will eventually need to pull off such a big task.

You'll also find that you may even get to know your lads and you'll be able to judge just how far you can push them. It's way better than just walking in cold.
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luckybugger
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:14 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

And you wonder why people are leaving the site?

With TSnerd as a MOD in full sarcastic mode poo pooing a valid question and a long post?

Telling the newbie that there was no hostility but there WAS sarcasm and ridicule? What sort of mod is that?

Me? I thought MODS where there to nurture new baiters and guide them in the right direction - I guess TSnerd has a different view and needs to humiliate them - still, everybody to their own way.

I think I am now banned from the site - BUT there are others!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I didn't see anything wrong with his post. he did provide him with helpful info, what's the problem?

Chaos didn't seem to take offense to it.

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