How seriously do lads take themselves?

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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:52 pm

I've noticed it most with the hitman modality (Tony, K1ngpin etc), but also with barristers, diplomats, couriers and even the lads themselves. Some of these mugus are so caught up in their online characters, they seem to believe it themselves. Even when they're busted by a baiter (a practice which has already been discussed), many of them refuse to give up their script or character.

It's been said that if you tell the same lie enough times, you will start to accept it as truth. Or is it all just part of the act? All comments are welcome...

(PS: This thread was approved by the mighty Eight. So there:! Smile

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:55 pm

Now that I think about it, you are right Jedi. the only thing I can think of is that it is an attempt to make you think they are legit. Even though the person can prove they aren't a whatever, if they keep up the act maybe the person will come around to them and even get some money out of it. That is all I can think of, because I believe it has to be money motivated.

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:01 pm

well, if they drop the act, they will not get any money, If they keep it up, you may end up buying their scam and send money.

I do think they love playing barristers and attorneys. I think they like the title and the respect it generates. Lads tend to write differently to you as well when they are in their role. They try to use fancy words and try to impress you. Also when the lad gets mad at me, he swears. When his alter ego is mad at me, he is all stiff and formal.

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:40 pm

It's one of the secrets of successful acting, no matter what the context. One term for it is "method acting"...getting so much into the part that you "are" your character.

I suspect many successful baiters do this as well. It's a step beyond "what would (my character) do in a situation like this"; it's having thought out the character's persona to the point that you get an email, you react as your character would, even if it's completely different that what you would do in real life in the same circumstances.

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:21 pm

In my view there are two stages to a successful bait firstly off-script and then out-of-character. When the lad is no longer pretending to be a widow with a trunk box full of gold, a lawyer or whatever then the bait can get interesting.

Lads are essentially greedy so they'll play ball with you for as long as they think they can profit from the exchange. Once out-of-character he has in effect lost his compass so you're now in charge to take the bait to where ever you want.

Some lads are so wrapped up with their act that they'll stick with their character come hell or high water. I sworn, threatened, offered rewards, cajoled etc and some lads just stick to their character. Others of course drop the act faster than the speed of sound when I come along with a better proposition.

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:50 pm

The indignant response when you are not playing the part of a compliant victim tells me that they do indeed get sucked into the role, but then so do baiters some of the time, imho. Very Happy

Oh, and LJ, I said to blame me if the location of the thread turned out to be wrong. Typical baiter, turning that into something else entirely. Laughing

Not that I disapprove of the thread itself. Very Happy

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:02 pm

Eight wrote:

Typical baiter, turning that into something else entirely.

Say what? This is 'zacktly what I PM'd you aboot! It wasn't my fault eh. Oh well (painting a target on my butt)... just start kicking! Rolling Eyes

Seriously though... thanks for all your input on this one. It's nice to get some other perspectives. I'll have you know I never find myself believing my baiting character is real when I do this. I do, however, like to play my gittar in my rec room and pretend I'm KK Downing, but that's different.

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:08 pm

@ LJ.

I loved to get completely into character when I baited as a man, but I have no idea whether I made a convincing male victim. I think it's possible to tell some of the time whether a "female" is actually a lad or a ladette, but I am not sure whether that is because it's harder for the lad to believe his own lies when he's cross-gendering?

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:42 pm

Pretty seriously actually...considering the fact that they are full of crap. For the most part they actually overcompensate. Just lood at some of the insults on our sigs. Laughing

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:46 pm

Mod Edit: Full requote of previous post deleted because we can see it above ^^^

I mean, who says "All you are interested in doing is heaping insults on my personality"?

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:50 pm

One of my lads takes himself very seriously.

We chatted for 5 hours yesterday on yahoo chat (anyone see House last night? it was crap!) and he told me that without a dream you are nothing (my character likes sex... and really not much else).

He told me all about his dreams, how he wants to make it big. His "mentor" is Donald Trump (Gnasher, I love you dude, but if Trump offered... nah... you're still better Laughing

) and he wants to build an empire of companies.

He was not impressed when he found out i was expelled from school for getting caught having sex outside a classroom (but he did like the security footage i sent of it) and does not like the fact that i've been scrapping together cash by sleeping my way through the pacific coast of the US (he's a check scammer).

So yeah, sometimes, even outside of character they take themselves very seriously. He assures me he loves his job Evil or Very Mad

and that I will get no where in life without a dream... well, i do have a dream... and it's about to become his nightmare Twisted Evil

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:07 am

I love it when it starts to become obvious that you're a joker and they say "why are you fooling yourself" Laughing

Elite Baiter Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 1979

I don't believe for one moment that the lads tell the lies so many times they believe it themselves. If that were the case then my son who's deeply opposed to my baiting for 'ethical' reasons, would be right. The scammer who tells me he loves me a thousand times over might really come to believe it and I could devastate him emotionally when I reject him or he discovers he's been baited. Ha ha ha. That is not possible.

No, I think it's the contrary. Scammers are filled with hate and rage against those they perceive have what they have not. Tony the hitman is a perfect example. I believe he truly does hate; that he's filled with it. If anything at all, his impotent rages and threats are proof of this.

Scammers are sociopaths devoid of conscience. I know of which I write from personal experience, extensive study and research on children raised without conscience development. I have written a psychology based manual on teaching children with these issues. Simple fact of the matter is that if a child's conscience does not develop at an early age, they cannot grow a new one. They become handicapped and dysfunctional adults usually rejected by mainstream society. The best anyone can hope for in teaching these individuals is by behavior modification.

This is what you all do here, whether you realize this or not. You are teaching the most mentally ill yet least understood individuals on this earth, that crime has no significant pay off. I believe that the percentage of those who scam and profit is insignificant compared to those who give up and try to fit in elsewhere. And those who do profit will only know fleeting thrills. They can't hold onto money because it is not what they truly desire. What they truly desire is to hurt others as they perceive they themselves have been hurt. It is the pain of others that gives them temporary joy.

Thinking about my experiences in teaching children undoubtedly much like these scammers (certainly many shared personality traits), I remember that it was important not to ever let them know they got to me. If I cracked and showed anger or temper, they won and to them it's a big power trippin game. They feed off negative energy. My favorite way to deal with their threats was to smile and calmly say, "Let me know how that works out for you."

Another thing that they hate is you having - having anything. With my lads currently, I'm complaining because my maid didn't organize my perfume bottles like I prefer and I have to drive the Lincoln because my Beemer is in the shop. I'm telling my mother my dressmaker's bill is $6,500 when it's actually $6,000 so I can pinch an extra $500 (of course it's not so) to send to my lad, but I have to get my nails done, get a pedicure and go to the day spa, before I can bring myself to set foot in that nasty WU place. I make Paris Hilton look like Mother Theresa. On the other end, no doubt my lad is seething with rage, all the while having to pledge his undying love for me. This has got to be a tough way to NOT earn a living, huh? I wouldn't be surprised if one of my lads IS Tony the hitman, venting.

Another thing that drives them nuts (well the kids I worked with, anyway) is to constantly ask questions. You all make fun that the lads hate work, but I submit to you my theory that thinking is work. It's why you enjoy getting them outside of their scripts so much. You know it's fun and they hate the work involved in thinking. Make them think up good and logical answers for a constant barrage of questions and you'll annoy the crap out of them.

Question, "Why did you do that?"
Answer, "I don't know."
Question, "You don't know?"
Answer, "No."
Question, "Why don't you know?"
Question, "Do you often not know what you're doing?"

You can go on and on forever when you're face to face, maybe on the phone or in chat, but with lads I don't think this would be productive because they'd dump a bait faster. They'd hate it. Still it might be good when you're ready to finally dump one. I'll have to test out this theory of mine when I can see I'm finally wearing one out. I think this might be better than letting them guess or somehow finding out they've been baited. I'll just turn into their therapist.

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:48 am

^^^ I don't think the OP was suggesting the lads actually believe there is $300 million of gold dust in a trunkbox... I think the suggestion was that they take the roles they play so seriously that it's almost as though they really think that the characters exist.

Incidentally... even if they did believe it... that doesn't negate the fact that it is illegal.

Interesting what you say about being filled with hate and rage towards people with wealth. I think this only applies to a small number of scammers. I think it has more to do with culture. There was an interesting report from Nigeria that I watched a few months ago which discussed how it is, in their culture, considered a great thing to make something out of nothing. Amongst the scammers and their surroundings many see it as the ultimate success, to con people out of money without actually having to do any work.

I don't know what motivates all lads, but i would suggest that money is a more central determinate than hate and rage.

I think you're lumping all lads into one category and presuming that they're not all individual people.

Not all scammers are devoid of conscience... that doesn't make them nice people, but if that were the case they wouldn't know that what they are doing is wrong... and I hazard a guess that most of them know that what they do is wrong.

Elite Baiter Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 1979

Red wrote:

^^^ I don't think the OP was suggesting the lads actually believe there is $300 million of gold dust in a trunkbox... I think the suggestion was that they take the roles they play so seriously that it's almost as though they really think that the characters exist.

No, I wasn't suggesting that.

Red wrote:

Incidentally... even if they did believe it... that doesn't negate the fact that it is illegal.

Of course.

Red wrote:

Interesting what you say about being filled with hate and rage towards people with wealth. I think this only applies to a small number of scammers. I think it has more to do with culture. There was an interesting report from Nigeria that I watched a few months ago which discussed how it is, in their culture, considered a great thing to make something out of nothing. Amongst the scammers and their surroundings many see it as the ultimate success, to con people out of money without actually having to do any work.

No, they're not all filled with hate and rage. For most I'd say it's just simple contempt and it's not just the rich. It's anyone they perceive to have more or be happier than they.

Red wrote:

I don't know what motivates all lads, but i would suggest that money is a more central determinate than hate and rage.

I think you're lumping all lads into one category and presuming that they're not all individual people.

Undoubtedly money is foremost for many. I didn't mean to lump them all together but I can see how you'd interpret my meaning that way. Either way, they're not normal, nor even average human beings. They're something else that the big category of criminal fits.

Red wrote:

Not all scammers are devoid of conscience... that doesn't make them nice people, but if that were the case they wouldn't know that what they are doing is wrong... and I hazard a guess that most of them know that what they do is wrong.

Here is where I disagree. Sociopaths, criminals, and many people who still function in society have either no conscience or underdeveloped consciences but can still know right from wrong.

Conscience is the inner voice in our heads that says, I don't do this because I'd feel sad, I'd hurt someone or I would not like the consequences or results of my actions. Someone without a conscience can still make good choices by thinking, "I don't do this because bad things will happen to me if I get caught. This is clearly demonstrated by criminals doing all they can to avoid detection or consequences of law. They know what they do is wrong.

A person without conscience simply does not care about anyone but themselves. They have no inner voice that tells them to either feel bad for hurting someone or even care if someone hurts. Some go over the top with this and enjoy hurting others.

Someone who does not comprehend right from wrong is considered insane. I still maintain that scammers are sociopathic.

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:12 am

Wow it's getting in-depth in here! I never actually thought this thread would go in a serious (mostly) direction, but I certainly don't regret that it did. Usually my posts are rather shallow and meaningless (and I don't regret that either), but there's some good stuff here.

@Red & Baglady: You both make some excellent points, so I actually agree with both of you. And thank you for not turning this into a flame fest!

@Eight: You do know I was just messing around in my first post right? Laughing

@persephone: You're right too. And by the way, your avatar scares the living hell out of me.

@ Everyone else: Other than my own drivel, I can't find anything to totally disagree with.

"Until then, take care of yourselfes... and each other." (Tony Soprano)

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:20 am

LJ wrote:

@Red & Baglady: You both make some excellent points, so I actually agree with both of you. And thank you for not turning this into a flame fest!

Thank you. I'm sure neither baglady or myself would ever consider turning a thread into a flame fest, he/she has reasoned arguments and I like that he/she is willing to stand up for his/her beliefs. That's the great thing about this forum, if we ever get angry, we take it out on the lads, not each other!

@ oldbaglady - I appreciate your comments and whilst I do believe you're spot on about many lads, i have encountered and read about too many different lads (individuals) to accept that every single one of them doesn't have a conscience, a lot of lads admit shame about what they do. Take 3d, just last week he begged not to be called a scammer because of the shame it brought on him.

That's just simply a hope that I hold on to... because if they don't realise it is fundamentally wrong, then we can bait them all we like, but they'll never stop.

I am by no means a lad hugger, you'll find no lad sympathy from me, I just think that as a baiter it is helpful to look at them as individuals rather than a social class, that way we can realise what makes our mugu tick.

But you know what, maybe you're right, i don't know enough about sociopathic characteristics to comment, so i'm more than happy to accept your conclusion.

Elite Baiter Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 1979

This thread mostly interested me because I think to know what motivates a scammer, to actually get into their heads, makes it easier to work them, manipulate them and perhaps eventually work them out of their jobs.

In working with the kids I used to deal with, there were some standard techniques, therapies and disciplines that would work for most kids, while some worked on one but not another. Not all have the same degree or conscience or lack thereof. Some are only damaged while others are void. I think we're all finding here, what works and what doesn't. We're basically a group of therapists comparing notes on our successes and mistakes in treating our clients.

Conscience is a fascinating thing. I believe it actually resides in the lower pre-frontal cortex of the brain. Imaging of a sociopathic or criminal brain compared with a healthy individual's brain will consistently show a distinct dark and unused area in this part of the brain. Intellect resides elsewhere. I think it important that we not underestimate the potential intelligence of lads as well as not assume they have 'feelings' the same as you or I.

OT but interesting reading on brain functions and conscience: http://www.brainplace.com/bp/spect_rotations/

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:46 am

I've been thinking the same thing along this thread. They really do convince themselves that they are telling the truth, the box is real, the check that was deposited and the cash that is credited to your account is really his, in his mind.

I confronted my latest lad with an identical letter from a scammer with the same last name, his reply: "My documents are better than his."
So we spent a week comparing documents and getting notary stamps on each of them, 1 at a time.

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:20 am

@LJ: course I did. Smile

@OBL: Thanks for the contribution. As LJ said, it's taken the thread in an interesting direction. I suspect that underestimating lads' intelligence is something we do often. Intuitively (i.e. I have no idea what I am talking about Smile

) I would have said that higher intelligence would make it more likely that one would have a well-developed conscience; is that not so? Is it, in fact, a better ability to reason and envisage the possible consequences (e.g. getting caught/jailed) that I am confusing for conscience?

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:01 am

Here is some pretty good proof:

Mugu Timestamp: 10/08/2007 10:20:55 GMT+2
Server timestamp: 10/08/2007 07:21:03 GMT
Question #: 1
Question: Are you the intended recipient?
Answer: you guy are robbers
Mugu Timestamp: 10/08/2007 10:21:24 GMT+2
Server timestamp: 10/08/2007 07:21:34 GMT
Question #: 2
Question: What is your nationality?
Answer: u are a thief
Mugu Timestamp: 10/08/2007 10:21:45 GMT+2
Server timestamp: 10/08/2007 07:21:52 GMT
Question #: 3
Question: What is your date of birth?
Answer: go and die

Baiting Guru Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 5905

It is very possible that a scammer can become convinced in the existence of his own character. Those who follow pro-wrestling will know that there are some wrestlers who end up believing they are the characters they play on TV. One wrestler who went by the name of Ultimate Warrior actually legally changed his name to that of his wrestling persona and although he has now retired from wrestling still refers to himself as 'Warrior.'

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:50 pm

I think that it's the scripts they seriously. As in, believe 100% that they are perfect and will always work. As long as they stay like this then they will be paid. They probably have this beaten into them by their Ogas, or whoever sold them the script. It's not the characters they take seriously, it's their script.

For example, I've been dropped by giving out about the script too much. Mostly it was when they sent me a scripted reply not related to the question I asked. Or when they kept refering to me being a US citizen when I was from the UK. Once I pointed out a random grammatical error that caused a paradox, just to find an excuse to waste time. Since they were using the script, which is perfect, the only way that I could be giving out is if I am a joker.

Elite Baiter Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 1979

Eight wrote:

I would have said that higher intelligence would make it more likely that one would have a well-developed conscience; is that not so? Is it, in fact, a better ability to reason and envisage the possible consequences (e.g. getting caught/jailed) that I am confusing for conscience?

Absolutely not so. Take for example: Theodore Kazinski, Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot . . . and more.

This is what I'm saying; conscience and intellect are two entirely separate brain functions. An individual's ability to reason, without conscience to consider how his reasoning will effect others, such as in the case with many lads (please note I am not saying all), will generally mean that they'll only work better and harder to perfect their techniques to fool others.

I think the thing that's most important to scammers is power. I believe that hurting others makes them in some way feel more powerful and in control. In reality they feel puny and insignificant. They desperately want to believe the things they write because in real life they feel they are nothing and have nothing. Thinking up ways to dis-empower them or maybe empower them to change behaviors is what we're doing here, IMO.

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:25 pm

A great topic Losst Jedi!!

I'm constantly amazed by the belief that these people attach to their stories!

When I'm exposing them on the radio towards the end of the conversation and continue to ask how they feel now they know they are being listened to by thousands of people - there response is simple (I am not a scammer, do not listen to him, I am Mr so and so from the Nigerian Bank etc)

Even when they are busted and they are quite clearly put outside of their comfort zone, they seem to feel safer and more in control by staying in character!!! This confuses me!

It's like, if you work in customer services and you get an angry client who continues to shout abuse to you down the phone - you retaliate and play the hard nosed boss, even when you quite clearly know you aren't. You then get found out and the real boss confronts you, suddenly, its time to own up, apologise or something!!! You certainly wouldn't stand there and say "well I am the boss"

This also leads me to agree with the fact that they have no concience, nor do they have anyone regulating or teaching them right or wrong because, unfortunately, this seems to be normality for these people!

Evil or Very Mad

NTBS!!!

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